GoldFinger1969

What do you mean -- you mean using like special lights/lasers to reflect off the coins ?

As you know, he had 2000+ coins in that 1950 auction and the bulk of them were low-denom coins selling for $15 or less.

Nice coin, Bill !

It must be tough to see the cameo effect on a small denomination coin.

Definitely agree. I know when I bought my last batch of (for me) pricey coins at FUN 2020...I spent probably 10-15 minutes looking at the coin (1923-D Saint) different ways. I could tell it was a nice coin and it was an MS-66...but I deliberately looked for FLAWS to see if anything would cause me to say "I should have waited or passed" a few days or week later. I really didn't see anything glaring and other MS-65's and 66's were definitely more noticeable with flaws/bagmarks. Oh yeah...the dealer INSISTED the coin was probably an MS-67 !!!

They learn, but probably at a slower rate. Similar thing in astronomy where people rely on computerized Go-To scopes instead of being able to use a celestial map or star chart.

What fun is collecting if you go out and buy the very collection you want to accumulate in a week ? What fun is that ?

Understood....I used them interchangeably, probably shouldn't have. Thanks !

I had that very idea, but Sotheby's would not take an out-of-town, 3rd-party check, postdated to 2026. Same thing here. Have gone on some buying sprees (usually less-expensive stuff, except for FUN 2020) but get more enjoyment reading about coins....picking a target....waiting and finding the right one....and then buying 1 or 2 of the type.

I could see overgrading, even with judgment and leeway, being fraudulent if someone was WAY overgrading coins, especially AU coins (AU50-55) with clear signs of wear/circulation as MS-60's to novices/beginners. Still, look at what passed for information decades before the TPGs....like in that Menjou Catalog I just got. No grades, just 1-line descriptions. Even the Price Catalog from 1998 with a decade of the TPGs had many coins way UNDERgraded in subsequent labels. But yeah, this will never be an exact science. Still think for the average or beginner collector it's light-years better than pre-1986.

That seems logical, especially since now they have issued so many more coins than when JA said back in 2008 and 2009 that they stood behind all their coins ready to buy or sell. Thanks, Mark.

I think what you are saying is true Mark...but doesn't CAC also make a market in the coins they sticker ? Or at least when they started that was part of their business model. Maybe they don't do it anymore. CAC just added discussion forums on their website I believe, I was scanning it a few weeks ago. I don't belong but I'll see if there are any threads on this topic.

Thanks Zad...unfortunately I had just been born when Mr. Menjou passed so no chance to buy his coins in the years or immediate decades after his death. Didn't even know about him until I read that he had a bunch of the MCMVII HR's....but my mother knew him from the movies (she's a big TCM fan ). Have NOT seen any estimate of how many of the MCMVII HR's he may have had at one time, but I think I may have read that he had as many as 150 of them (or was it 50 ?)? That would have been a nice chunk of change in the 1930's, 1940's, and 1950's. But he feared economic collapse and inflation and a collapsing dollar so putting Big $$$ into pricey gold coins (he had other non-Saints as I listed in the Auction Catalog Thread) doesn't surprise me. Interesting fact: he and Katherine Hepburn disliked one another.

Which means it is probably not one of the coins that got graded loosely. Which I think is somewhat valuable. We can debate how much. I'm sure we answered this in the SAINTS BOOK Thread....but is there a magic "tell" that would show abrasion as coming from handling and banging against other coins, as opposed to circulating or being touched by human hands ?

Agreed...but for the coins I look at most in-depth (Saints, Morgans, etc.) the commentaries -- which are understood to be a mix of opinion and facts -- are part of the story-telling I love. Even if something is not 100% factually true -- if it is clearly labeled as opinion or conjecture -- it can be valuable. Just have to separate them and be clear what is what.

Formats may be obsolete, but I'll bet there still lots of good information in those books. That's why I don't mind looking at old auciton catalogs or a book that hasn't been updated in years or decades.....in many cases, the commentaries about coins are still valid in the present.

Did you ever get the Saint, Olympics ?

I don't think that is up to Roger unless he presses the issue. I do know that I reached out to HA to ask about an electronic or PDF format for the Saints book -- no luck. Ditto for most of our classic books that aren't revised regularly. Maybe the Red Book and a few others are, but the ones with really indispensable information are print-only for the most part.

Well, some of those are legit and I've heard of, others could just be a guy with an alphabet-symbol company filed in Delaware.

Biggest Sellers & Surprises, 1950 Menjou Auction: Here's a listing of the non-Saint notable sales in the 1950 Mejou Auction: 1802 Half Dime...at the time, they said no coins better than FINE were found and one in 1907 got $500. But this coin was estimated $ $750 and went for $425. According to the book, only 16 known (still the case ?). 1894-S Dime: 24 minted, only 7 said to exist at the time (still the case ?). This coin was supposedly a proof. Estimate @ $2,500 but went for $1,850. 1873-CC Dime: One of the FEW coins that went above the estimate...and boy did it !! Estimate was $1,000 it went for $3,650. Without arrows, described as a superb gem on par with the 1804 Dollar or 1913 Nickel. 1876-CC 20 cent piece (never even knew they made those !!)....estimated for $2,000 but went for $1,325. 10 specimens believed at the time. 1823 Quarter: 1823 over 22.....estimated $750 but sold for $465. Another coin that sold for a higher price a few years ealrier in the "World's Greatest Collection" auction. Somebody named "Atwater" also had a $750 specimen. 1827 Quarter: $3,000 estimate, $2,725 sold. 5 or 6 believed to exist at the time. A 2nd coin, a proof less lustrous, estimated $1,000 but went for $675. 1796 Half Dollar: 15-star variety....some rub/wear on high point....die line....estimated $600, sold for $590. The 16-star variety. Light circulated evidence or bag marks it estimated for $600 and sold for $600. 1838 New Orleans Half Dollar: Beistle (1929) said 3 pieces; K&K said 6-7. One sold at WGC for $1,600, Atwater $2,200, and Neil estimate was $3,000...this one ended up going for $1,650 despite estimate of $3,000. 1853 Half Dollar: The Standard Catalogue had no value for this rare coin so no estimate...went for $890. The WGC, Atwater, Neil, Dunham, Geis, Higgy, Olden, and Stickney collections didn't have one. 1834 Quarter Eagle: Estimate $600, sold for $540. With motto. Proof-like might be proof. 1841 Quarter Eagle: Estimate $6,000, sold for 45,100. Highest priced coin. Struck only for private collections. Only 6 or 7 struck in total, 2 for U.S. Govt. 1863 Quarter Eagle: $1,250 estimate, $975 actual price. 1854-S Quarter Eagle: $1,250 estimate, $725 actual. 1875 $3 Gold Piece: $3,000 estimate, $2,675 sale price. Brilliant proof as listed in the catalog. Panama Pacific Set: $1,350 estimate, $1,115 actual sale price. $4 Gold Stella: $550 estimate, $500 actual price. Latin Monetary Standard creation coin. 1795 Half Eagle: $750 estimate, $500 actual price. 1815 Half Eagle: $5,000 estimate sold for $3,000...uncirculated, so worth 50% more than Standard Catalog price (VF). Could be finest 1815 of all. 1819 Half Eagle: $2,000 estimate, $1,100 sale price 1821 Half Eagle: $1,000 estimate, $600 sales price. The 1822 -- only 3 around -- had Brand Coin sell for $14,000 in 1944...a record for any coin. 1827 Half Eagle: $2,200 estimate, $1,525 sale. 1828 Half Eagle: $2,200 estimate, $1,402 sale. 1829 Half Eagle: $3,000 estimate, $2,200 sale. Small date. 1858 Eagle: $3,500 estimate, $1,750 sale.

Since you included the FMTM cover.....I would find an index to basic and beginner concepts of a mint: what is a planchet....how gold/silver get turned into coins....the processes that raw ore goes through before becoming a coin....striking quality vs. speed....what is a die...what is a hub.....what is a collar....etc etc etc. As you and I have discussed, FMTM is a much harder book to read than the Saints book (I also have more interest in Saints than the minting process so the former was an easier read for me personally), though if there was a section on Saint striking I probably need to re-hit that section. But I got alot more out of the Saints book than FMTM for all the reasons we've discussed....so....re-reading each will improve my recollection of details in the Saints book....but give me a broad overview of concepts in FMTM. And of course...the Saint book reads easy with the annual and special chapters. FMTM is so detailed an index (in the book or on CD) helps to find specific items.

That's why I say if you have a particular fondness for a coin set....and there is commentary from the HA Archives or any other website....cut-and-paste or copy or download it and save it on YOUR PC (with backups !) in Word and/or PDF format. Who knows when something will disappear or be taken off or even be lost because of a web or hacker problem. I PDF every 5 new pages with the RWB Saints Book Thread.

And maybe it WAS better or maybe we can debate whether it was at least in 1990 when you took Nikon pics and faxed it to someone....and only dealers had electronic quote machines.....and without the Web and Internet....before cellphones....and before smartphones taking high-def 12 megapixel photos But in an age of the internet and online buying and selling and TV infomercials.....would the lack of numbers fly with the internet, smartphones, high-def pictures? I'm not so sure, Roger.

And Superb Gem might be what was graded/called today as a 67. Back then, grading was so conservative that many coins that went "Choice Uncirculated" in auction cataglogs got upgraded up to 4 grades once the TPGs came into existence (i.e., the Eliasburg coins).

If you like gold coins and/or Saints, his Saint-Gaudens Book is fantastic.