GoldFinger1969

If the Treasurer (Secretary of the Treasury ?) had a bag of these "defective" coins do we know if he had them destroyed or, after further reflection, decided the coins could be given out without too much "humiliation" ?

Yeah, was he saying re-strike them (and destroy these) or just do without them ? If he had gotten his way, we'd have lost 2/3rds of the MCMVII HR's. The difference with the Flat Rim is so miniscule to non-professionals that I'm surprised he used the phrase "humiliated."

RARE COIN TV: Today I saw Roger's book in another infomercial, but Rick Tomaska wasn't the guy making the pitch. It was a substitute. Once again, the book was on a picture frame mount off to the side. The "coins" were commemoratives from the Augustus Saint-Gaudens National Park Foundation. They were selling the 1-ounce Winged Liberty Ultra High Relief in gold for $5,495 which is a HUGE premium to the spot bullion price. I don't believe previous versions were retailing for that much of a premium. They were also selling a Winged Liberty 5-ounce Silver Ultra High Relief for $995. I don't like the premiums being charged but they were actually my least distasteful part of the 25-27 minutes. References were made to the other 2 Ultra High Reliefs struck, the 1907 MCMVII UHR (with a Heritage snapshot showing one going for $4.3 MM) and the 2009 UHR. Mintages of each -- 21 vs. 114,000 -- were emphasized and how THIS coin was in between those two, benefitting future appreciation. For the gold coin, it's mintage of 299 and for the 5-ounce silver it is 999. I like these coins but the premiums have to come down on both. They are also issuing them every year or every other year, the novelty is going to wear off. Rick's infomercials do a good job telling the history of the coins or commemoratives, and I applaud him for that. I just wish the coins were cheaper -- partly out of his control, I know. I guess if someone buys one and it stimulates their interest in the richness of this hobby, it's not a bad deal -- heck, I wish I had been exposed to double eagles much earlier as I undoubtedly would have cleaned up at much lower prices -- so we'll just have to see. I'll see if these coins show up on HA, GC, Ebay, etc.

Errorist, why did you ask ?

FYI, as I recall, the lira exchange rate to the dollar was about 600 to 700 in the 1960's and 1970's. So this was a small denomination coin.

My Whitman Double Eagle Red Book (not the Annual Red Book about all coins) has 5 full pages on the SSCA. There's only 1 edition of this book (2004) but there is a bit more information that has come out on the total salvaged and a few other items, if they ever do a 2nd edition. My Annual Red Book is the 67th Edition, (c) 2013 like yours. 1 1/2 pages on shipwrecks and a bit under 1/2 page on the SSCA. There's an error on the SS Republic where they say that 1,400 DEs were found dated 1838-1858. DEs weren't struck until 1850 (excluding the sole 1859).

Congrats on finding the bill !! I am curious as to where you "found" it, if you would let us know. Here's the grading definitions used by PMG, the leading currency grader. I woul say your bill is either in the Very Good or Very Fine buckets....probably VG-10 or VF-12 as the bill has tears and gaps along the sides. It is also very worn. Not sure if it is any special print which would add to the value. https://www.pmgnotes.com/paper-money-grading/grading-scale/ Still, I bet it has a FMV of $100 or a bit more.

Great article, I commented in another thread.

You probably have some MCMVII HR and/or Saint and/or gold or silver HOLDERS....who never add to their holdings....never look at them....don't know what a slab is (unless they inherited one)....and are never on forums like this. I agree. We won't see or hear about their coins until they die and their estate/kids/beneficiaries liquidate the holdings. You've said -- and Kurt backs it up with his PA excursions -- that lots of people purchased raw coins and/or inherited them and they are sitting in safes, garages, or SDBs. Again, I agree. It might only be 5-20% of the current population grades for some coins...but that is ALOT of coins for those coins/grades that have seen no or little movement in the population census in years/decades. I agree: true collectors are ACTIVE and are involved in more than 1 coin type. But lots of people are just coin or bullion HOLDERS -- not collecting, not buying, not selling, not active -- especially for older collectors and/or their estate inheritors.

Was a Chicago mint ever considered, Roger ? Denver's population in 1906 couldn't have been that large.

The big factor with Saints is you are talking about a big 1 ounce coin....so at current market values, you are talking about a floor of about $2,000 to get into the game. And obviously numismatic-quality coins are mostly in the $2,500 - $4,000 range depending on the rarity and grade. That explains why many gold afficionados will collect Quarter or Half Eagles instead....MUCH less expensive, right ? If you want to get in the game for ASEs, you can buy plenty of stuff for < $100.00. Not so with Saints or modern AGEs ! I can't recall where I read it (Doug Winter's blog ?)...I know I posted it before....but I read where one guestimate was the following: About 500 serious registry collectors of Saints. About 25,000 serious Type and partial collectors of Saints (I'm in this group ). Several hundred thousand buyers for investment purposes only (I used to have clients in this group). It IS an interesting question, Zad...and you ARE right. There is no 1-size-fits-all and yes, while the coin type(s) and quantity are limited, I would say your friend who collects the Mexican Gold 50 Pesos IS a collector. If someone has 5 or 14 or 30 coins but is not ACTIVELY buying/selling/adding to their stash -- numismatic or bullion -- I guess it's a matter of semantics, right ? I am sure there are lots of people who own 1 or 2 gold coins, maybe a Saint, and haven't bought a coin in years or decades, if at all. Most likely inheritances. Certainly, a significant percentage of the MCMVII High Relief coins were originally bought by people who were not serious coin collectors....who knew only it was a "special" coin.....and maybe because it was a coin created by the famous sculptor ASG whose art work they already admired. I'm not a wine collector or big drinker, but I couldn't resist buying a case of wine when my favorite Met growing up, Tom Seaver, released his vintage wines some 15 years ago. Anyway, that MCMVII HR has since most likely been handed down 1 or 2 times. Is the successor owner a coin collector ? Probably not....like a person who inherits some family jewelry, they probably keep it for sentimental reasons ("Grandpa owned it" or "my mother gave it to me"). Without these strong hands holders of this coin -- and maybe some others -- the price would probably be much lower. We have tons of posts here and elsewhere where folks and dealers say that the MCMVII HR is annually chosen as an "overvalued" coin that trades at much higher prices than it should based on (available) supply...without accounting for the demand for a rare, high relief coin that is unique and has a fantastic story attached to it. I don't share that view....I think coins reflect (available) supply and demand. But that "available" supply could be much lower for the MCMVII HR -- and other coins -- and thus accounts for a higher price than what some of you think it should be (I'd be interested in hearing what some of you think an MCMVII HR AU-58, which goes for about $12,000...should cost if supply and demand were more "normal").

Yeah, and Cripple Creek and other Colorado gold finds also hit...but by 1906 when the Denver Mint opened, they all had to be on their last legs, no ? SanFran Mint opened a few years after California gold strikes....the Denver Mint opened a much longer period of time after Cripple opened. However.....those mines STILL produce gold today, so maybe it was still pretty active in the early-1900's.

What was the reason for the Denver Mint ? The Comstock and Cripple Creek finds were winding down or done (nearest supplies)....San Fran's mint was there because it was built shortly after the California gold finds. Why was a 3rd mint needed...and why Denver ? Small denomination coins ?

And where did those coins go once turned into bars ? Same place as Miss Galore and her acrobatic circus.....Fort Knox, Kentucky ! Everything about Fort Knox (but nothing about the electrical system that electrocuted poor Oddjob ) from the illustrious RWB : https://coinweek.com/the-national-gold-bullion-depository-at-fort-henry-knox/

Interesting comments on Saint pricing from John Albanese. It's from late-2022 but I think his Big Picture on Saints is that prices/premiums have/had fallen to the point where you don't need the CAC or CACG endorsement to get VALUE for your purchase if you do your DD: JA: "...I’ve had similar conversations about Saint-Gaudens and how strict we are with MS65 here. But I have to tell you, the MS65 Saint-Gaudens prices have come down so low in price for non-CAC coins that I may disagree with the grade, but I don’t disagree with the value. If that’s their standard, that’s their standard. That’s okay. Interviewer: It’s kind of difficult to get one of those in MS65 these days where Liberty doesn’t look like she lost a knife fight. JA: "Yeah. I remember, I bought some. I bought a nice little grouping of them that were not stickered-nice. They’re relatively nice. They weren’t stickered coins and at the time, 64s were $1,950 and 65s were $2,020. I couldn’t believe my eyes when I saw the prices on the screen. At $2,020, I felt very comfortable buying. I would buy a hundred, I bought half a dozen, but I would buy a hundred at that price, because forget the grade, forget everything else, but the fact with gold at $1,650, looking at these coins, I would pay $2,020. Even if they were out of the holder, I’d pay $2,020. So, I didn’t feel as though anything was askew. Again, not my standard, because to me, MS65 means “Gem”...." So basically he's comfortable with 65's trading at a 20-25% premium to gold.

Sandon, how can you tell that the Barber -- or any coin for that matter -- has FULL luster ? I can see full luster on coins that have it...I can see NO luster...but I have trouble seeing "luster breaks."

I know.....premiums on the $50 re-strikes were about 700% to spot gold when they first came out. I got one about 10 years later for about 10% premium.

Bowers Whitman Red Book on DE's has a good accounting of the SSCA. There were also some documentaries about 23-24 years ago.

But they all, even CAC/CACG, do take it into account via either market or net grading. Maybe not on all coins, but on some.

Not sure if toned is worth as much in the Barber series as it is with MSDs.....I'll go with MS-66.

I know that the coins sold at huge premiums to gold bullion because of all the hype...but is anybody aware at that time the coins were GRADED if the coins were overgraded, undergraded, or pretty much spot-on ? It appears that the bulk of the coins would have been certified BEFORE standards started to loosen about 2003 or 2004 or so. Most of the commentaries I've read seem to imply the coins are properly graded, just a question of how much to pay up for the SSCA hype.

No pics showed up. Would like to see a Double Eagle -- or Eagle -- you say is overgraded.

I can see the value in that, Teddy. Do what you CAN do and enjoy it rather than the drudgery of work. All kinds of shows...small ones, big national ones ?

Maybe Mark or someone who has worked as a grader or knows their operations can answer this question: am I correct that these "grading sets" I am reading about are actual high-quality (and expensive !) actual coins that the graders and the companies use as guides to help in grading ? I read that JA intends to spend "millions" on sets and have his graders look at them weekly. Why would TPGs do this when ultra-high resolution photos can do the same thing at a fraction of the cost ? Why spend millions accumulating all kinds of different coin series, years, and mints.... and also presumably on ultra-rare coins ? Is CACG really going to go out and get a lower-graded -- but still super-expensive -- 1927-D Saint or 1930-S ? Has this been done in the past ?

RWB and others here said that the actual coins owned by celebrity coin collectors like Buddy Epsen and Adolphe Menjou were much smaller than what was sold under their auction name. In other words, their names were used to sell other coins they didn't really own. The power of celebrity. Question: how much is a common year MS-65 MSD or Saint worth ? Now....how much is that same coin worth if it was part of a "collection" owned by Taylor Swift ?