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JTO

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Journal Entries posted by JTO

  1. JTO
    My original thesis was that Marquis coins get preferential treatment but I could not leave well enough alone...
    I am glad that we got the discussion that we got. 21 people felt it worth their time to write a response and over 200 views. The original Title was "Marquis coins get a pass from PCGS" Then I changed it to "Is this fair grading? See the grade PCGS gave and guess who submitted it."
    The point made by Mark on his posting was a good one. It did not escape my attention that the holder was an middle generation PCGS holder. It is NOT a BLUE (recent label) nor GREEN (OLD) but blackk print on a white background with the bar code. This dates the slab to the 2004 to 2008 time frame. The consequence of that as pointed out bluntly pointed out by Kaiser14 is that Stacks could not have submitted the coin for grading.
    But to Kaiser14 don't through the baby out with the bath water. The title was what would you grade this coin. The primary thesis if you will was that Marquis coins seem to get the benefit of the doubt in the grading process. Another way to look at the same thing is that both PCGS and NGC and ANACS and PCI want Marquis coins in their holders. Duh...
    I made a side comment about the auction house and in fairness probably should've saved that for a separate post. But here we are. Remembering back to my first Heritage auction experience in Santa Clara in 1998 my experience has been that coins graded by auction houses tend to get the benefit of the doubt. No I'm not talking about a conspiracy. Coins fairly graded AU55 are not being put in MS65 holders.
    But for Kaiser14, I will present the second half of my thesis more clearly and as an opinion. When I send in a coin like this its returned details grade CORROSION. When an organization that measures its revenue stream in 100s of millions of dollars submits the same coin it is viewed as Fine 15 with a granular surface. For them scratch or even gouge become contact marks. You get the picture. My opinion only!
    I am not opining that there is a great conspiracy but rather this is simple economics. Sure the grading is blinded. But when a coin is number 140 of 750 it's not too hard to figure out that you're dealing with a major player and not a small time collector or even dealer. Simple economics. Kaiser14 is America and for better or worse the hobby that we love is based on a thesis of Capitalism. And just to throw more fecal matter in the air the same coin graded at 11 AM on a Monday may get a different level of scrutiny than a coin that finishes the process at 4:59 PM on Friday, its just life.
    Thanks for the great discussion
     
    John

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  2. JTO

    New Orleans part 2

    By JTO,

    another great New Orleans coin
    here is the affordable New Orleans half dollar, mint mark obverse.

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  3. JTO
    Added the last of the New Orleans issues to complete the type set.
    Finally, I finished my New Orleans type set. Although the registry has a Carson City--one per denomination, a type set, the New Orleans Mint has not been deemed worthy of such a designation. Nevertheless, after completing the Carson City set, I slowly, over several years, worked to complete a New Orleans type set. The Double Eagle was difficult only based on price, the $3 was not bad and the halftime, no stars, was actually quite challenging to find an acceptable grade. The clear stopper was the 1909-O $5 Indian. This was both difficult from the perspective of finding a nice quality piece and keeping it under 5 figures. While I finally found a $5 Indian that I could live with and be happy with without taking out a mortgage. I can't afford to just pay a dealer to go out and buy me a complete mint state set, nor would I want to. That would take the fun out of the hunt. Having completed this set I can say with confidence that the 2 most difficult coins are the no stars halftime, which is totally under rated and the 5 Dollar Indian which usually comes with quite a bit of fanfare. I hope you'll enjoy the photos of the coin as I hope I enjoy the coin, happy hunting.
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
    John

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  4. JTO
    PCGS does it again making their "New" holder Worse than their old ones.
    Sometimes I wonder if the people at PCGS are just mean spirited, greedy or maybe both. The new PCGS holders which were introduced a few months ago have added security feature on the bottom of the slab. This consists of a series of capital letters. Presumably to accommodate this feature they made their slabs fatter. Okay...
    Also, NGC lead the collecting community with the edge view slab and I must say that I strongly prefer it to the old style were the edges are covered by plastic. You may notice that the new PCGS slabs no longer have this feature. Or maybe if you paid a premium you can get it. Either way...come on.
    What a surprise, the new PCGS slabs no longer fit in the NGC plastic slab boxes. Since this is one of the primary ways that I store my slabs it has presented me with a bit of the dilemma. They do fit into the intercept shield cardboard box lined with copper to reduce environmental deterioration (corrosion/oxidation). I have a large number of these boxes but after about 5 years the protection becomes exhausted as the Copper molecules in the lining are bound to oxygen. Also the NGC boxes are more space efficient and generally nicer to deal with.
    Granted NGC had a good thing going by selling their boxes as the only high quality all plastic boxes that fit PCGS, NCG, ICG and ANACS. That is now over.
    This appears to one collector as one more step in the war between NGC and PCGS that will lead to complete separation and force collectors to choose one or the other. So far NGC, in my opinion, has taken the high road. They include PCGS coins in the NGC registry (exclusive of world coins). There boxes accommodated all relevant slabs, including PCGS.
    Look at the freedoms and liberties we have given up in the name of security since 9-11-2001. No I'm not saying that something is trivial as coin collecting is in anyway on par with the terrorist attacks on New York. But here is PCGS "upgrading" there slab for "security" reasons in leaving me with a slab lab of lesser quality that doesn't fit into my system. On the whole when put in the perspective of the twin towers my concern is trivial. The just like the twin towers it pisses me off.

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  5. JTO
    There seems to be a growing corporate strategy for NGC to focus on the Non-US market over the US and leave the US to PCGS.  I may be wrong and this is in no way a dump on NGC (you can read my laudatory comments about Mark Salzberg and NGC in the "A SLQ Problem Coin's Journey to Righteousness" journal thread.)  https://www.ngccoin.com/boards/blogs/entry/292-a-slq-problem-coins-journey-to-righteousness/
     
    It appears that while NGC is increasing its investments in the international market it is not doing as much on upgrading the U.S. platform.  The data I use to make the conclusion that NGC is shifting their focus to the Non-US market over the US is based on 1) they dumped all PCGS coins out of existing "World" slots, years ago. 2) The registry no longer starts with US coins but it takes an egalitarian approach to all countries listing coins alphabetically by nation (I start each of my "registry encounters" with Albania.) 3) While they have decreased their presence at US shows (Long Beach etc.) they have increased their presence internationally.  This includes both a greater presence at international shows and NGC has opened new "bricks and mortar" Centers in many other countries especially in Asia.  This "corporate approach" is probably working as they seem to be the dominant grading service for both World and Ancient coins.  Their volume has increased particularly in Asian paper money.
     
    With regard to the registry platform the registry navigation drives me crazy.  When I finish working on my Complete Standing Liberty Quarter (SLQ) set and want to go back to Quarters to work on my "one per date" SLQ set or Early Quarters set and use the back navigation button on the browser, the browser does not go back to the Quarter's registry page but back to the first page of the NGC Registry (Albania.)  I met with the NGC staff at a FUN show and explained this problem and they were clearly aware of as they said that others had complained as well.  Alas 2 years and no fix and you cannot "bookmark” page 2, 3 or 8 even as a go around.  If you bookmark page 6 the Registry opens to the first page (Albania.) 
     
    I believe in NGC and find their grading more consistent and fair than PCGS.  I much prefer dealing with Mark Salzberg over David Hall. I remember when Heritage Auction was more ANACS than PCGS or NGC.  Then ANACS slowly disappeared and it was NGC and PCGS.  Now, for U.S., coins I am seeing a decrease in NGC leaving PCGS alone.  I hope NGC does not abandon the U.S. market by default (by not focusing their prime effort in the U.S. market and shifting it to the World market.)  As I said I believe in and prefer NGC.   NGC brought me the Edge View which brings some coins to life.  NGC, for the most part, photographs every coin that they grade (PCGS does not.)   That photo can help you recover a stolen coin (I have done it.)   These efforts by NGC are what sets them as the market leader regardless of who was first to slab a coin (PCGS 1986 and NGC 1987) or who the Investor Class prefers.  Please don't leave U.S. NGC!
     
    John


  6. JTO
    The 1839-O half-dollar was the first minted in New Orleans and not Philadelphia!
    How could I forget the first New Orleans half-dollar. This has always been a favorite of mine. Although many reference books describe the first New Orleans half-dollar as being one of the few 1838 proof issues, current research suggests most if not all, most likely all, were minted in Philadelphia. This has to do with the dye characteristics and the proof quality. As for the re-punched mint mark it turns out this is the more common of the varieties and as such carries no premium. The single punched mint mark is less common but I don't think it commands a premium. This coin is also a hard to track down, regardless of RPM or not, as most have found homes with collectors such as me to appreciate them greatly for what they are. This coin is just another fascinating, in my opinion, addition to the New Orleans type story. If my posts are excessive please leave comments and I will tone them down.
     
     
     
    John

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  7. JTO
    Here is a coin that I paid a whopping $360 for, obviously in 2002.  I was proud of my find because all the other bidder appeared to be bidding on the holder not the coin.  The value of a 1908 with "Motto" is, or was higher than the no motto variety.  I paid $40 under greysheet for th coin which was about par for the with motto variety at the time.  I took it to the PCGS booth at Long Beach and they aggressively offered to reholder the coin for free, I passed.  So the coin sits misunderstood by its holder.  I actually have a collection of these and in my experience I have had a easier time finding error PCGS than NGC coins.  This is a satirical post bout PCGS for those that are wondering what I am talking about.  The motto is on the reverse just above the sun and the holder clearly says that there is no motto, a motto that Theodore Roosevelt felt violated the separation of Church and State.  Next a 1849 Gold dollar in an open wreath holder with a close wreath.
     
    John
     



  8. JTO

    Photo Take II

    By JTO,

    I have tried for years to crop circles, that is Coins...
    Here is the corrected version of the previous photo. I have corrected the die rotation. The coin was slightly rotated clockwise obverse ~1.7 degrees. This did not account for the full reverse counterclockwise rotation of 7.2 degrees.
    17601.TIF
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  9. JTO

    Points and type sets

    By JTO,

    Is a 1909-S VDB red equal to a 1958-D?
    Sometimes I don't understand the scoring system. At first look it is almost a dollar per point system or maybe it is based on rarity? But by what standard, mintage bears little to no resemblance to population (severely overestimates in an un-equal distribution) or the population reports (which over estimate due to re-submissions). The score seem vaguely reasonable but I have a pet peeve. In the type set it seems you should get more points for say.... a 1909-S VDB as your wheat cent than a 1958-D. so I went the route of a matte proof. 24 points for a 1909-S VDB MS 63 RD was tough to look at. Just one guys perspective...

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  10. JTO

    Problem Coins

    By JTO,

    Is problem finely detailed rare coin better than a no detail Problem free coin?
    A one year type quarter. So She has the mumps and graffiti which are nicely described as "Counter Stamped". Why not American Chop marks? I think that the "problem free" coins at some point will not be the be-all-and-end-all of collecting. In this case the coin pictured was in an auction with another that was problem free but with "About Good" grade (rubbed smooth) and sold for thousands more. I lost this coin in the Long Beach show a couple of years ago and now the price was less (because it is not a problem free coin). With only a a couple hundred of these one year coins in existence I would rather have a problem coin with fine "details" rather than a problem free coin with no "details". I could be all wrong...

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  11. JTO

    Problem Coins II Continued

    By JTO,

    Here is a my problem VF Details (3043 pt) next to a current auction Problem Free Pr-1(4416) pick one
    Sorry for the formatting flaw and typos in the last message. Here I think a (or 4) pictures are worth a thousand words.

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  12. JTO

    Problem Coins Part II

    By JTO,

    Checkout the scores for the 1793 Half Cent
    If the 1796 quarter posed a quandary the 1793 Half Cent is downright insane. Here are the scores for a 1793 Half Cent.
    Pr G VG F VF 40 45 50 58
    4416 5651 5771 5965 6089 6215 6343 6473 6874
    The coin pictured below garners a whopping 3045 points. That's over 1000 points less than the coin that has been rubs so smooth that you can only tell what it is by the faintest of attributes. Also the difference between the coin in Good-6 and a coin that he is About Uncirculated is only 13%. A couple of the commentators on my previous post I think some that up nicely.
    1) it is the investors that are driving this insanity
    2) be careful what you wish for as you just might get it
    As long as this sort of nonsense continues we collectors of early rare American coins will benefit. As the investors bid up the Poor problems free coins we will be able to scoop up those miscreant coins at a substantial discount. So really maybe we (the true collectors who are not related to Bill Gates) are better off with the scoring system and the way it is because we can afford to purchase coins with nice details that either have a significant issue or were simply submitted by the wrong person (I see this much more commonly with PCGS than NGC)
    Thank you for all your comments.
    By the way the coin pictured I purchased raw from, of all places, Coast Coast coins for a little over $3000 and it graded VF Detail and as I said gave me 3045 points in my type set.

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  13. JTO

    Rare 1877 Indian Cent, Not

    By JTO,

    This coin is anything but rare, just check out any major auction.
    This coin was brought from Rick Snow. It got the PS designation but only, in my opinion, because of the date. This coin is poorly struck on the its right side, including the date and AMERICA on the obverse and the bow and arrows on the reverse. The fact that I bought it means the only person I really have to complain about is myself. I chose the coin. With that said I am a bit tired of hearing that this is the toughest issue of the Indian series to obtain. This date is anything but rare. Because of the value, er price, even in low grades, every auction has multitudes of 1877s. The only difficulty in obtaining a nice one is the depth of your bank account.
     
     
     
     
     
    Compare this to the 1859 1c proof cameo Indian that I waited years to find a nice example with true cameo contrast. The 1859 is a rare coin. The 1877 is a pedestrian coin that costs and arm and leg.

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  14. JTO

    Remembering Mr. Jay H Cline

    By JTO,

    From his formal top hat to being the foremost seller of the two bit coin, he will be missed.
    I bought this coin at the Long Beach show in 2010 from Mr Cline. Although not a standout even one of the weakest coins in the set and I paid a premium to it "buy from the master" it was well worth the experience. He was willing to talk with me when, at the time, I had not yet read his book and did not have a good knowledge of Standing Liberty Quarters (SLQ). As you can see he was also willing to autograph the slab (see the reverse photo). He was a kind man who had true passion for what I think is our finest coin. I will miss him and I will never sell the coin (regardless of score.)
    Set Link http://coins.www.collectors-society.com/registry/coins/SetListing.aspx?PeopleSetID=138325&Ranking=all

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  15. JTO

    Shattered

    By JTO,

    A shattered 1797 Half Cent
    Here is s coin with a well recognized repunched date (1 over 1). I am curious as to what the markings are to the right of the upper 1. Are they the remnants of the re-punched date? There does not appear to be anything on the reverse to explain them as die clashes.
    It also has evidence of several major obverse die cracks. Die crack #1 that runs from just before 12 O'clock to Miss Liberty's hairline. A second die crack (#2) from just after 12 O'clock runs in a wandering line across the anterior aspect of her hair line behind her forehead and then extends down through Miss Liberty jaw. the third crack (#3) extends from near 12 O'clock past the right side of the "E" in Liberty then passed the front of her face where it reconnects with missed Liberty and comes out of her nose and then continues down diagonally to approximately 4 O'clock. Another more subtle crack (#4)appears to go from approximately 2 O'clock just to the left of the Y in Liberty and then intersects Miss Liberty at her temporal scalp line. Finally there is what I believe is a die clash that extends from perpendicular to crack #3 and extending the intersection of the pole and Liberty's neck.

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  16. JTO
    The "journals" are worse not better.  The registry is also worse and I have cut my time there by 80% (maybe a good thing?)  NGC has taken the "high road" out of town and left us, the collectors, behind.  Why do I have to go to page 4 to find my U.S. coins?  The time is ripe for a Third, Third party to open a user friendly Registry for us "the collector" that serve as the fuel for the hobby.  Maybe the ANA, hint , hint...
    A good registry is like a virtual Dansco or Whitman album, with holes to fill and eventually the joy of completing a set.  This is where NGC had a huge advantage toward participation.  Most serious collector have a mix of PCGS and NGC.  In auctions of US coins, currently, the ratio of PCGS coins to NGC is about 3 to 4 to 1 .  For world coin auctions it is reversed with NGC dominating by up to 10:1. That maybe why NGC is putting the world coins in front of U.S. on their Registry.   Is NGC giving up on the U.S. market?
    NGC IF YOU IGNORE U.S. COLLECTORS WE WILL GO AWAY!!!
    Here is what I see as a solution, after having several PCGS coins returned that would not cross ( AFTER NGC GOT THE GRADING FEE) I had an idea.  If NGC is so much purer and dedicated to truth and honesty then here is an idea:
    Submit PCGS coins to NGC to cross (full fee) or just to grade (like the GSA coins.)  These coins have no guarantee from NGC if they are left in the PCGS holder, they just get a grade.  Because they are still in the PCGS holder they:
    1) Don't get included in the NGC population report
    2) The NGC grade is affixed to the PCGS holder so the coin can be used in the NGC registry
    3) NGC has no liability as they do not provide a guarantee (as stated in the small print by NGC on both GSA and Ancient coins)
    4) If the coin is sent in for only an NGC grade but not gross over (the GSA treatment by request) the fee could be reduced (again NGC is not providing a guarantee)
    (About the guarantee, most of you already know all of this but for those that don't, here it is.)The guarantee is what you pay for.  Yes they are guaranteeing the grade in an NGC holder but the big money is in the guarantee the the coin is not a counterfeit.  PCGS has certified at least 2 counterfeit coins that they placed into their holders within the last two years.   If a person buys that coin, in the original PCGS holder without evidence of tampering, they can go to PCGS and expect to be reimbursed for their loss (the fair market value of the coin.)  The grade guarantee is much more difficult to "prove" unless it is a "Red" copper that has turned brown, which is why they don't guarantee color on copper anymore.
    This would bring me back to NGC and I would be willing to pay to get my PCGS coins on the NGC registry (which I liked better before).
    But it is hard to look at a Liberty V in a PCGS MS-66 holder that NGC would not cross and then resubmit to cross at MS-65 or 64,  Would you do it?
     
    John
  17. JTO
    I've never heard of a GSA gold hoard release is this just a marketing ploy?
    I was browsing the auction archives at Heritage and came across a group of coins that I had never heard of. They were 2-1/2 dollar Indians slabbed in an NGC holder with the GSA attribution. This makes no sense to me in view of the fact that when gold or bullion was recalled by the federal government in 1933 it was melted into ingots for storage at Fort Knox. I know that in the past dealer's with enough coins to grade and cash to spend can have essentially any attribution placed in the slab. Some hoards are real and some are not. He is anyone from earlier with this particular NGC insert?

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  18. JTO

    What about New Orleans?

    By JTO,

    Carson City gets itself and denomination set shouldn't New Orleans? And maybe even San Francisco and Denver.
    I lived in New Orleans for 4 years in the early 80s. I grew to have an affection for the city below sea level. The New Orleans Mint Museum is one of the most un-pretentious and enjoyable museums that I have been to. New Orleans was the first "branch" Mint to coin non-gold coins. It began with a beautiful "no stars" dime. The 1838 New Orleans proof half dollar was likely minted in Philadelphia for at least some of the 8 specimens. Regardless I enjoyed collecting New Orleans mint issues and would love to see competitive sets to go with them. On a side note the New Orleans mint has never officially been removed as a US mint it is simply unfunded.

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  19. JTO
    I found the 1916 in FH I had been waiting for.
    After a long wait I found a full head 1916 Liberty Standing Quarter with original surfaces and a great strike. What do you all think? The 1916 FH is always much softer than the 1917 FH. In my opinion the 1916 is not really a "type one" to be grouped with the 1917's. It has a completely different master hub. Look at the stars on the gateway or the letters on the obverse and on "United States of America" on the reverse. The stars have a softer edge on the 16 and the letters of the both the obverse and reverse are more rounded on the 1916 compared to the 1917.

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  20. JTO

    What grade is this coin?

    By JTO,

    I bought this coin and I wanted your opinion: what numerical grade would you give (1-70 Sheldon Scale).
    This coin is certified by NGC (not a Problem, Details, or No Grade coin). The grade assigned puzzles me and I would be interested in the collective wisdom of the group. I will post the grade, photo of the coin in holder, once I give you all a chance to vote on the grade you would assign as a grader for NGC or PCGS. If you think that the grade would be different between the two major services I would be interested in your opinion on that as well.
    Thank you for looking and please vote if you have an opinion.
    John

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  21. JTO

    What is this?

    By JTO,

    Did the mint really sellout to the big marketers with no public release?
    I found this on MCM for an obscene amount. It appears to be a US mint issue and NGC has certified it giving it credibility. On the US Mint website there is no mention of this coin on the product schedule. can anyone tell me is the really what is? It seems to be a direct to marketers sellout by the US Mint completely cutting out the public. On the competitive set under the national park service this is listed with no points assigned. It is not a "non-competitive issue" (ie Norse medals) with 0 points, what the.....
    John

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  22. JTO

    What is this? take 2

    By JTO,

    Is this a US Mint issue?
    Did the mint really sellout to the big marketers with no public release?
    I found this on MCM for an obscene amount. It appears to be a US mint issue and NGC has certified it giving it credibility. On the US Mint website there is no mention of this coin on the product schedule. can anyone tell me is the really what is? It seems to be a direct to marketers sellout by the US Mint completely cutting out the public. On the competitive set under the national park service this is listed with no points assigned. It is not a "non-competitive issue" (ie Norse medals) with 0 points, what the.....
    John
    PS sorry for the re-post I did not have the picture correctly added to the first.

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  23. JTO
    ridiculous variations in grading standards depending on the coin and who submitted it.
    PCGS is like a politician, you get the grade you pay for. I first recognize that something was not kosher about 6 years ago when I bid on and won a 1934--S Peace Dollar in a PCGS AU-58 holder from Heritage. The photographs were washed out and that when I got the coin in hand... WOW talk about ugly. At best, the coin should have graded XF-45.
    I concluded; Marquis coins submitted by auction houses get upgraded and put in holders that regular coins submitted by regular people would never dream of getting. But was told: ...Oh no the grading is completely anonymous and above Board... This coin is in the Stacks auction and as a chain cent would qualify as Marquis coin. If I submitted this coin it would come back with details grading, corroded. How can you explain this coin getting a pass on the corrosion and being slabbed in a regular PCGS Holder? The reverse is worse. Look at the coin and then at the holder, can you honestly tell me that coin belongs in that holder?

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  24. JTO
    Was this done to damped the dissatisfaction with NGCs recent changes?
    It occurs to me that one reason that the "comments" option was removed was to dampen/minimize the voice of those of us who are unhappy with the changes that NGC has made recently. Most significantly the decision to no longer allow PCGS coins on the NGC registry. This was obviously a business decision made at the top level of NGC. Presumably the thought is that people will start crossing there coins over to NGC to continue with this registry.
    It is my opinion that this was clearly true for the world coins. However, NGC was clearly superior to PCGS in grading world coins. That is not the case with US coins. The reality is whether we like it or not, US coins in PCGS holders statistically bring in more money for the same grade at auction.
    Because NGC included both their coins and PCGS, I viewed NGC as the better of the 2 registries. In my opinion it showed that NGC was more committed to the collector than just the bottom line profit. As a result I would submit coins to be graded preferentially by NGC. I loved the Versatility of the NGC Registry, But no more.
    I have met and interacted directly with the top person at both NGC and PCGS. I found Mark S. Of NGC to be thoughtful, considerate and insightful. He struck me as a collector, who understands collectors, and was consistently trying to do the right thing. On the other hand, David H. seemed to be arrogant, condescending and made it clear during the Meet the Expert that his time was more valuable than any of the people that he was meeting. In one instance while he was conducting a Meet the Expert session he was spending more time talking to John Dannreuther (a really nice man) about where to put in Coin Facts than he did to the people waiting and line. The title of one of his first books, in my opinion, is the best illustration of his approach to us lowly collectors... The Mercenarys Guide to the Rare Coin Market c1987. I just expected more from NGC, Oh Well.