1862 SL Proof from Follow the Lead Post

[robec1347]

I'm sure that Larry and Boiler78 are probably correct in their thoughts of this coin having hairlines from cleaning. I looked closer this morning under an OTT light until I was seeing spots. While it does have numerous unexplained hairlines (more than likely cleaning) it also has, as Larry said, polishing lines.

 

I bought this in the '90's when I was even more uneducated about coins and the cleaning of than I am now. I'm sure I wouldn't even consider this purchase now. I sent it to NCS for authentication fully expecting it to body bag because of the lines. I was very surprise when it was forwarded to NGC and slabbed PF62. Partly because of that and partly because of some of the raised lines (which I am posting some shown below) that I saw last night and this morining, I made the erroneous assumption that ALL the hairlines were from die polishing.

 

I'm not sure if this is a die clash or a bad job of die polishing

 

 

Other raised lines

 

 

Lines going under devices

 

[RUSS BEGA]

it looks liek a clash in some areas, but i do belive that there are some die polish lines. either way it doesnt effect the grade or value of the coin

 

(nice lookin sl btw)

[Shortgapbob-migration]

As it was very common for people to wipe their proofs with a cloth in the past, I imagine the coin would have both hairlines and die polish lines.

 

Die polish lines are always an interesting topic for me. Being Mint produced, they should never affect the technical grade of a coin. However, they can certainly hurt the eye appeal and affect the selling price, thus having an effect on the market grade.

 

Just my two cents.....

[bsshog40]

Nice close-ups there Bob. I think even tho' it looks to maybe be a few hairlines, that the majority is die polish lines. I'll bet that the die polish lines were far more superior over any hairlines is why it graded out so nice. With so many die polish lines, there couldn't have been any way they could've separated the two. Pretty cool coin Bob!

[robec1347]

Nice close-ups there Bob. I think even tho' it looks to maybe be a few hairlines, that the majority is die polish lines. I'll bet that the die polish lines were far more superior over any hairlines is why it graded out so nice. With so many die polish lines, there couldn't have been any way they could've separated the two. Pretty cool coin Bob!

 

There is no shortage of things going on with it. It is what it is and I'm pleased to have it. So, back off the couch again and put back in the back of the safe.

 

Should I chance posting my NGC graded 1862 Proof dime (which was purchased at the same time)?

[bsshog40]

What da hay!!! I'll try not to get you nervous!!

[rrantique]

Bob still have to say a great looking proof and it is die polishing lines in your photo. While it may have some wipes on the obverse I think it is still properly graded. So let's see that dime.

Sorry about having to get out of the leather chair.

[robec1347]

OK....You talked me into it. Here is the dime.

 

 

I guess I'll have to get off the couch again and inspect this one too. This was graded by NGC as "gulp" PF64

[ant]

wow ! just wow! thanks for the eye candy

[rrantique]

You can hit the recliner now and rest easy that is a really nice example of a seated proof.

 

"Yes sir-reee Bob"

[bsshog40]

I like this too Bob. Looks like they came from the same mint. I think you also have the same as with the other coin. Die Polish, not hairlines.

[robec1347]

On this one I actually see Less of the die polish lines. It does have hairlines, but far fewer than the half dollar. I also think it might be overgraded, unless what I think is wear on the head is attributed to a weak strike.

 

But you have to admit, it is a nicely matched pair. Maybe I should finish the year set and get a matching quarter and dollar.

 

Thanks for your indulgence and all your comments and opinions. This is a great hobby and problems or not, these are fun coins.

[bsshog40]

I think it's a justifiable PF64 Bob. I don't think it's over-graded at all! Go for the set. Now that would top them both off!

[rbrown4]

Now the 1862 Dime, NGC PF 64, what does one say........WOW.

 

Rey

[supertooth]

robec1347

 

After I saw this post, I went back to look at the other pictures from the other post. Must say that my first impression was that the half had been cleaned. But, having an open mind about coins, I must say that these pictures seem to indicate a lot of die polishing lines too.

 

It is certainly possible to have 'both' on the same coin. And, I agree, you can get a headache looking. Trying to prove one way or the other what you have---or do not have---can certainly take more than a few observations.

 

For myself, I have seen a 41S Walker that had both cleaning hairlines and die polishing lines. The dealers swore to my friend that it was "ALL" die polishing. But I held firm that it was both. I also---just this past week---saw a Washington Quarter that my son just bought. I must have looked at it for 15 minutes. I'd think it was all die polishing lines----and then in the next minute---couldn't absolutely swear there were not some other hairlines there too. IMHO, the grade on your half is correct.

 

Like the dime better for sure. May not be a 64---but surely a nice coin. And, yes, I would try to complete the set. Excellent post. We need as many of these great pictures as we can get on these chat boards. Bob [supertooth]

[robec1347]

Thanks Bob! Your observations sum up what I went through and what I think is on the coin, especially the half. I feel, from what I've read on this thread, the other members feel pretty much the same way as far as both types of lines being apparent.

 

Thanks for your comments and I think that would be a great challenge to complete the set with matching sisters.

[rexcat]

Bob,

 

That’s great proof 1862 dime you have there, that could go either PF63 or 64, but it should be in a holder with cameo on the insert, like my 1862 half dime below, there seems to be frosty surfaces on everything but the fields which contrast nicely. I think it's has been cleaned along the way based on toning and look of the fields, like my half dime again.

 

I’ve seen cleaning hairlines on almost if not all 19th century proof silver graded PF63 or less, light hairlines some times on PF64s, and almost never on PF65s and higher. Also it seems to me that there are less “white” silver proofs in higher grades, if the coin doesn’t get cleaned it doesn’t get scratched.

 

Polishing and other damage done to the die before striking the coin can be found on any grade proof from the 19th century when the mint’s quality wasn’t as good as it would become later. Some proof coins suffer from flaws due to how the dies were handled and maintained. Whether rust eating its way into a die’s polished surface or deep scratches from poor die polishing the mint used these dies and many proof coins left the mint with problems caused by the mint’s coining practices. Today TPGs view these problems “as struck” and usually don’t discount the grade of the coin due to them. Hairlines on the other hand...

 

The way to tell the difference between die polishing and scratches (or coin polishing as you could say) is whether the flaw you’re looking at is raised up higher than the surrounding surface or is dug into the surface, any scratch or nick on the die will transfer on to the coin as raised line due to the coins material filling in the flaw on the die under the high pressure of coining press. Using a single light source reflected at a low angle over the coins surfaces, look to see if the line you think is die polishing, through a high power loupe or microscope, is casting a shadow opposite the direction of the light. A shadow like that is caused by a raised feature; a scratch would be reflecting the light from the side opposite the light.

 

 

 

I boughtthis half dime in a NGC PF64 holder which I sent it back for review and now has the cameo designation on the holder.

 

 

1862 Half Dime, NGC PF64 CAM:

 

[rrantique]

Beautiful coin Paul and thanks for a very informative post.

[robec1347]

Thanks for your comments Paul. Lots of good information. I do know about the raised lines and incused hairlines. I saw quite a few of both as shown in the 3 images I posted. I hadn't thought about the rusted die aspect however. Instead of what I thought was a clash (in the top image), maybe it's possible that it was the result of a rusted die. Especially since I don't see anything on the obverse that resembles the markings of what I thought was the clash.

 

BTW. That is a very nice Half Dime.(thumbs up I had mentioned that I might try to complete the 1862 proof set. I didn't even think about the Half Dime. I might look into the cameo designation. I'll have to look a little closer at it. Thanks for all the great info.