Laura Sperber of Legend Numismatics Speaks Out

[123cents]

All I have to add to this discussion is that I think Laura made some valid points. I also think it was dumb to ban her from the PGCS forum. It makes them appear guilty and makes the ban look 100% retaliatory.

[okbustchaser]

All I have to add to this discussion is that I think Laura made some valid points. I also think it was dumb to ban her from the PGCS forum. It makes them appear guilty and makes the ban look 100% retaliatory.

 

I also believe that Laura has over the years made many valid points. On the other hand, I don't think that it was dumb to ban her. One simply should not publically insult one's host--whether deserved or not. If one does then one should not be suprised to be shown the door.

[gmarguli]

All I have to add to this discussion is that I think Laura made some valid points. I also think it was dumb to ban her from the PGCS forum. It makes them appear guilty and makes the ban look 100% retaliatory.

 

I also believe that Laura has over the years made many valid points. On the other hand, I don't think that it was dumb to ban her. One simply should not publically insult one's host--whether deserved or not. If one does then one should not be suprised to be shown the door.

 

A smart host who is in the business of making money should look at the "insult" and try to figure out if it is a real problem and if so, how can it be addressed. If one person is complaining about something, you can bet ten people feel the same way, you're just not hearing their complaints.

 

PCGS has a very poor history of addressing complaints. Their arrogance has been their downfall. Censoring the people discussing the problems will not make the problems go away.

 

Side note: I think that PCGS is killing one of two areas where they had an advantage over the competition. Have you seen their grading on moderns lately? Horrific! It's worse than I've ever seen it.

[IGWT]

Side note: I think that PCGS is killing one of two areas where they had an advantage over the competition. Have you seen their grading on moderns lately? Horrific! It's worse than I've ever seen it.

 

What's the other area where you think they have (or had) an advantage? And be careful . . . words here might get you banned over there.

[gmarguli]

Side note: I think that PCGS is killing one of two areas where they had an advantage over the competition. Have you seen their grading on moderns lately? Horrific! It's worse than I've ever seen it.

 

What's the other area where you think they have (or had) an advantage? And be careful . . . words here might get you banned over there.

 

Copper. Their guarantee is clearly the best in the industry. There is no copper guarantee at ANACS & ICG. For NGC it is limited to 10 years from date of encapsulation. If I collected expensive red copper, I'd want it in PCGS slab based on the guarantee.

[MarkFeld]

All I have to add to this discussion is that I think Laura made some valid points. I also think it was dumb to ban her from the PGCS forum. It makes them appear guilty and makes the ban look 100% retaliatory.

 

I also believe that Laura has over the years made many valid points. On the other hand, I don't think that it was dumb to ban her. One simply should not publically insult one's host--whether deserved or not. If one does then one should not be suprised to be shown the door.

It was my understanding (and it might very well be incorrect) from something that I read, that the "insults" were written on her website, not on PCGS's site, so that there was no "host" involved.

[Zoins]

Whatever the reason, I doubt it was attributable only to this latest article on the Legend website. Laura and HRH/PCGS have a very long history and I'm sure all of that was factored in.

[IGWT]

Side note: I think that PCGS is killing one of two areas where they had an advantage over the competition. Have you seen their grading on moderns lately? Horrific! It's worse than I've ever seen it.

 

What's the other area where you think they have (or had) an advantage? And be careful . . . words here might get you banned over there.

 

Copper. Their guarantee is clearly the best in the industry. There is no copper guarantee at ANACS & ICG. For NGC it is limited to 10 years from date of encapsulation. If I collected expensive red copper, I'd want it in PCGS slab based on the guarantee.

 

The NGC 10-year limitation applies to Cu/Ni as well as to pure copper.

[gmarguli]

Side note: I think that PCGS is killing one of two areas where they had an advantage over the competition. Have you seen their grading on moderns lately? Horrific! It's worse than I've ever seen it.

 

What's the other area where you think they have (or had) an advantage? And be careful . . . words here might get you banned over there.

 

Copper. Their guarantee is clearly the best in the industry. There is no copper guarantee at ANACS & ICG. For NGC it is limited to 10 years from date of encapsulation. If I collected expensive red copper, I'd want it in PCGS slab based on the guarantee.

 

The NGC 10-year limitation applies to Cu/Ni as well as to pure copper.

 

I didn't realize that. So it's basically all modern coins and many classics. CN coins aren't nearly as reactive as pure copper, but still...

[Tradedollarnut]

It was my understanding (and it might very well be incorrect) from something that I read, that the "insults" were written on her website, not on PCGS's site, so that there was no "host" involved.

 

No, she posted a generality on the PCGS chatroom in a thread started by someone else. Something along the line of 'the TPGs have slammed the door on the little guy but the big submittors are still getting their crappy dollars and saints'. Note that she never said PCGS specifically on the chatroom - nor on her website until after she was banned.

[MikeKing]

 

A smart host who is in the business of making money should look at the "insult" and try to figure out if it is a real problem and if so, how can it be addressed. If one person is complaining about something, you can bet ten people feel the same way, you're just not hearing their complaints.

 

 

Excellent point indeed.

[BillJones]

 

A smart host who is in the business of making money should look at the "insult" and try to figure out if it is a real problem and if so, how can it be addressed. If one person is complaining about something, you can bet ten people feel the same way, you're just not hearing their complaints.

 

 

Excellent point indeed.

 

PCGS figures that there are a huge number of Koolaid drinkers who view them as greatest numismatic institution in world. To these people PCGS can do no wrong. PCGS and David Hall are opposed to any form of dissent and are prepared to ban it wherever they can. So far that strategy has worked.

 

When you think about it, it’s not the worst strategy for PCGS. If ignorant people who don’t want to do their homework continue to get into numismatics as an investment, they will want to believe that there is a perfect, infallible grading service upon which they can place their faith. So long as PCGS can keep that perception alive, they will continue in to be viewed by some as “the premier grading service in all cases” even if that perception is inaccurate.

[braddick]

I believe it's fiscally irresponsible for PCGS to warranty early red copper for the life of the coin.

 

NGC watches the bottom line and the smart move for them is to continue to place a limit on their guarantee as the surface of copper is just too sensitive to protect under a warranty.

 

A strong case can be made the holders are not, of course, any last protection for copper, and it all depends on how well the collector stores and keeps his copper coins.

 

As the onus is on PCGS to pay out for 'changed' copper yet the control is out of their grasp, and knowing whatever claims are paid come out of PCGS's bottom line (read: your grading fees are just a bit higher to cover it all) NGC's business practice of covering copper for only ten years after grading is liberal enough and makes sense.

 

Then again, Greg's point is not lost on me and certainly if I collected GEM early copper in full RED (or, even R/B) I'd also want them in PCGS holders.

[Zoins]

PCGS figures that there are a huge number of Koolaid drinkers who view them as greatest numismatic institution in world. To these people PCGS can do no wrong.

You mean like this $16,100 PCGS MS68 Vancouver commem?

[MarkFeld]

I believe it's fiscally irresponsible for PCGS to warranty early red copper for the life of the coin.

I'm not so sure of that Pat. I think it would depend mostly upon how much extra was generated in grading fees for copper coins, due to that guarantee (and its positive effect on prices for PCGS copper). I'd liken it to an insurance company's deriving revenue for automobile insurance, knowing that they will eventually be paying out a certain amount of funds on claims. I don't claim to know how much additional grading fee revenue results from the guarantee but I would guess that it's significant.

[braddick]

I believe it's fiscally irresponsible for PCGS to warranty early red copper for the life of the coin.

I'm not so sure of that Pat. I think it would depend mostly upon how much extra was generated in grading fees for copper coins, due to that guarantee. I'd liken it to an insurance company's deriving revenue for automobile insurance, knowing that they will eventually be paying out a certain amount of funds on claims. I don't claim to know how much additional grading fee revenue results from the guarantee but I would guess that it's significant.

 

Excellent point Mark, but unlike insurance companies that charge more for policies they know they'll be paying out more for, in the future (for example, if a parent dies of cancer the child pays more life insurance premiums than does someone else who has no such family history), PCGS charges the same "rate" (read: slabbing fee) for all copper coinage as it does for non-copper submissions.

Or, using your auto insurance example, a collector's 1978 Chevy Chevette would be the same cost to insure as another's 2007 Chevy Corvette.

I think the Corvette is akin to red copper.

 

Another example:

It would be like your insurance company charging the same amount for fire insurance on a brick home as they do on a residence built of straw- they would quickly go out of business.

 

RED early copper are straw houses just waiting for the big bad wolf to drive up in his brand new shiny red Corvette and flick his lit cigarette out the window.

[MarkFeld]

I believe it's fiscally irresponsible for PCGS to warranty early red copper for the life of the coin.

I'm not so sure of that Pat. I think it would depend mostly upon how much extra was generated in grading fees for copper coins, due to that guarantee. I'd liken it to an insurance company's deriving revenue for automobile insurance, knowing that they will eventually be paying out a certain amount of funds on claims. I don't claim to know how much additional grading fee revenue results from the guarantee but I would guess that it's significant.

 

Excellent point Mark, but unlike insurance companies that charge more for policies they know they'll be paying out more for, in the future (for example, if a parent dies of cancer the child pays more life insurance premiums than does someone else who has no such family history), PCGS charges the same "rate" (read: slabbing fee) for all copper coinage as it does for non-copper submissions.

Or, using your auto insurance example, a collector's 1978 Chevy Chevette would be the same cost to insure as another's 2007 Chevy Corvette.

I think the Corvette is akin to red copper.

 

Another example:

It would be like your insurance company charging the same amount for fire insurance on a brick home as they do on a residence built of straw- they would quickly go out of business.

 

RED early copper are straw houses just waiting for the big bad wolf to drive up in his brand new shiny red Corvette and flick his lit cigarette out the window.

Pat, I had thought about the potential liability for some (copper) coins being far greater than for others, though I admit I hadn't considered the big bad wolf - now I'm scared!. That aside, the bottom line is whether enough extra revenue is generated from the guarantee to cover the liability for the copper coins which, in the determination of PCGS, turn from RD to RB or BN, or from RB to BN. Right or wrong, they must think the reward makes it worth the risk.

[braddick]

Right or wrong, they must think the reward makes it worth the risk.

 

Or, their pigheadedness (nice tie-in with the wolf theme...) won't allow them to alter their policy.

 

For example, I honestly believe, had PCGS quickly came up with their own "PQ" designation after NGC did with the STAR rating, it would have been successful for them.

But, even so, they did not. I personally believe they didn't do so because to follow on the heels of NGC would have possibly been perceived as a sign of weakness so they simply choose to avoid it all.

 

Look how long it took PCGS to recognize the Cheerios variety/pattern Sacagawea. Even months after the recognition by all the trades and services, PCGS refused to holder them with any kind of designation. No one can convince me this wasn't because NGC was the first to research and holder this variety.

[jtryka]

Of course regarding the guarantee, aside from the incremental revenue and cost argument, there is a third dimension which is the claims adjuster who comes out to the smoldering straw house and explains that there will be no payment since the home was not covered for cigarettes launched from Corvettes as it specifically states in paragraph IV(A)(3)(m)(viii)...

[IGWT]

It was my understanding (and it might very well be incorrect) from something that I read, that the "insults" were written on her website, not on PCGS's site, so that there was no "host" involved.

 

No, she posted a generality on the PCGS chatroom in a thread started by someone else. Something along the line of 'the TPGs have slammed the door on the little guy but the big submittors are still getting their crappy dollars and saints'. Note that she never said PCGS specifically on the chatroom - nor on her website until after she was banned.

 

As though we didn't know to whom she was referring . . . .

[DonHeath]

I told David Hall a year ago-FIRE THE GRADERS and the head finalizer. It is time for fresh eyes. It’s not like this is a big secret.

 

How......reasonable.

[BillJones]

PCGS figures that there are a huge number of Koolaid drinkers who view them as greatest numismatic institution in world. To these people PCGS can do no wrong.

You mean like this $16,100 PCGS MS68 Vancouver commem?

 

Heritage has taken the large image down, but from what I see, that coin looks like a piece that has been dipped that turned in the holder to a less than attractive blotchy brown. If if the coin is perfect under that toning, there is no way it's not worth $16,100 IMO.

[Zoins]

PCGS figures that there are a huge number of Koolaid drinkers who view them as greatest numismatic institution in world. To these people PCGS can do no wrong.

You mean like this $16,100 PCGS MS68 Vancouver commem?

Heritage has taken the large image down, but from what I see, that coin looks like a piece that has been dipped that turned in the holder to a less than attractive blotchy brown. If if the coin is perfect under that toning, there is no way it's not worth $16,100 IMO.

Thanks for the reply Bill. Many people ATS have said that coin is very ugly and perhaps only valuable for registry points. Perhaps something can be done to make it more visually appealing?

[BillJones]

Thanks for the reply Bill. Many people ATS have said that coin is very ugly and perhaps only valuable for registry points. Perhaps something can be done to make it more visually appealing?

 

This coin is stuck between a rock and hard place. If you dip this piece, I think that will "look dipped." As such there is no way that it could make MS-68. In fact there is no way that it could grade beyond MS-64 with a "looked dipped" look.

 

"Only valuable for registry points"

 

That pretty well sums it up as to why people pay these outrageous prices for over graded, unattractive coins. And the vast majority who do it are trying to be top dog on the PCGS Registry. Those top dogs seem to be lapping up a lot of Koolaid.

[SuperDave]

 

....PCGS and David Hall are opposed to any form of dissent and are prepared to ban it wherever they can. So far that strategy has worked.....

 

 

I'm not sure this is an entirely accurate characterization, if viewed by the metric of website traffic, which is at its' lowest level since 2002 and declining daily:

 

http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?url=pcgs.com

 

Beyond that, your points are quite valid in that PCGS trades upon its' reputation as the "premier" service, and that you can, in fact, fool some of the people all of the time. Just not as many as they would wish they could, I believe. I strongly suspect that there is much handwringing going on within those walls these days. At least, I should hope so; if not, they're more out of touch than they appear, which is already a big number.

[gmarguli]

Thanks for the reply Bill. Many people ATS have said that coin is very ugly and perhaps only valuable for registry points. Perhaps something can be done to make it more visually appealing?

 

Sure, this coin can probably be worked to make it more eye appealing. However, then it wouldn't be "original" and the true collectors would shun it.

 

Am I insane or is PCGS censoring the posts in that thread?

 

I swear that monsterman (Gregg Bingham) made a post stating that the Vancouver used to be in an NGC MS65 slab. He also referred to the Cleveland that was NGC MS66, now PCGS MS68.

 

Where is that post now? It's no longer in the thread.

 

Notice a comment at the end of the first page by the thread starter, scher (Bruce Scher): "Would love to hear the story behind those 2 upgrades..at least the Cleveland was a great lookin coin if im thinking about the same one..just dont get the Vancouver though..."

 

The post he is referring to is no longer in that thread. It's not been edited out like a user can do, but rather the entire post is gone from the thread!

 

PCGS is sinking to a new low. This is pathetic.

[WoodenJefferson]

 

"Only valuable for registry points"

 

That pretty well sums it up as to why people pay these outrageous prices for over graded, unattractive coins. And the vast majority who do it are trying to be top dog on the PCGS Registry. Those top dogs seem to be lapping up a lot of Koolaid.

I pretty much agree with this Bill

[IGWT]

I swear that monsterman (Gregg Bingham) made a post stating that the Vancouver used to be in an NGC MS65 slab. He also referred to the Cleveland that was NGC MS66, now PCGS MS68.

 

He did.

[WinstonWare]

 

TomB lived most of his life in Harlem

[MBA101]

 

I am just sitting and this thread. Very entertaining.

 

The whole fuzzyness of top graded "registry" coins is part of what keeps me away from them. And just goes to show, there is and always will be, a fog over the whole grading issue. I have grown to become super-careful over what I now buy, and paying fools-money for a stupid piece of plastic will not happen with this cow-poke.