Toned Proof Jeffersons (AT/Real)?

[gmarguli]

In the ANA thread TomB made the statement that I don't think that all of the wonderfully toned, deep purple, blue and magenta proof Jeffersons from the 1960s are naturally toned and I would not pay the money to acquire an example.

 

There does seem to be many coming on the market all of a sudden. Yet, I've pulled some from 1960s proof sets that had color to them, but none as vibrant as what has been coming to market. Am I unlucky or is someone "helping" them out?

 

Here are three toned examples from eBay. I am curious as to what people think of them (AT or NT) and if AT then how (chemical, heat, etc).

 

closed eBay auction

 

 

 

closed eBay auction

 

 

 

current eBay auction.

 

 

 

[Oldtrader3]

I do not know whether these Jeffersons were AT'ed or not. However like Tom, I have been around for a bit and also collected Jeff's in the 1970's. I saw toned nickels back then but they were mostly toned very muted golds, reds and blues. I had a 1949-S that was all blue but it also was pretty muted when compared to the '63 you have shown.

[dragon]

Until someone can show me a Jefferson nickel with those extreme shocking flourescent colors still sealed in the mints packaging, I would not believe they are coming out of the cello like that. I also think many of these coins have been 'helped' along as far as the toning.

 

dragon

[Hoot]

I've encountered a few of the wildly toned Jeffersons straight out of the Mint packaging That said, I think that there are two things going on (and I mentioned this in TomB's thread): (1) I think these exist and are being readily sought now. Their existence is somewhat of a "new" phenomenon in the eyes of those who are seeking neat toning, as the Jefferson series has lagged for quite some time. (2) Since these DO exist naturally, I think there's a very high likelihood that the coin doctors will make every attempt to imitate them. This will, of course, destroy the legitimate market for them.

 

Upon buying them, I'd be very cautious. I'd probably only buy those that were still Mint packaged. This is a sad fact, given that a number of legitimate specimens have already been certified (I have had one certified myself). Some AT on these is easy to spot, as it appear "glittery." I'd definitely stay away from those that have a metallic sheen and appear to be painted on.

 

Hoot

[sanmary]

I've been in love with natural, beautifully toned coins way before this current fad we're in and frankly like Greg said, I haven't seen these purple/blue Jeffersons until recently. I suppose I don't know if they are AT's or not, nor do any of us unless we were there. That being said, I have seen coins in the past with the same colors as the 3rd coin has much more frequently in the past. These purple poppers have only begun showing themselves in the last 6 months or so. In conclusion. I too am suspicious of these and will be until I too see at least one example still in the cello. From my experiences Jeffs seem to like to go blue and gold.

[MAULUMALL]

I have a couple that are toned Really deep blue.

I pulled them Straight from the mint/proof sets.

 

Is there a premium for them?

 

Or just certain years?

[BushMan]

Am I unlucky or is someone "helping" them out?

I don't believe there is any question about that. These near flourescent coins are simply not natural. The nickel is the easiest coin to "help". Since some of the proof sets from the 60's have some nicely toned, though not radical, nickels in them and the services seem used to placing them in the holder, it is an obvious niche for the doctors to exploit. I certainly wouldn't pay a premium for one. In fact, I strongly shy away from the coins!

[GDJMSP]

Like Hoot - I too have a few of the original Mint & Proof sets with such coins in them. But as I have recently commented in another thread - these sets can be counterfeited. And we all know the coins can be AT'd.

 

However - I do have some sets that I know for a fact are not counterfeited - with such coins in them. And what about the well known Black Beauty Jeff ? They have been around for decades - are they all AT as well ? I rather doubt it.

 

I think if anything that there are those who are capitalizing on the fact that such coins with NT do exist. That does not mean that all coins are genuine - nor does it mean they are all AT. It just means it is now harder for us to be sure.

 

edit - As I have asked before - if you can't tell the difference - does it matter ?

[ArtR]

The ones I have seen in Mint Packaging only carried the Blue Color like the 1963 that gmarguli put up. I know texasbulliontraders had a large group of these proof Jeffersons, and submitted over 200 to PCGS which did get into holders, I may be mistaken but I believe he said they were all still in there mint packaging, and did carry some wild coloration.

 

[Tonekiller-migration]

The ones I have seen in Mint Packaging only carried the Blue Color like the 1963 that gmarguli put up. I know texasbulliontraders had a large group of these proof Jefferson, and submitted over 200 to PCGS which did get into holders, I may be mistaken but I believe he said they were all still in there mint packaging, and did carry some wild coloration.

 

 

248 in total with the standard color mix but they were in tubes by the time they went to PCGS at the Central States show. I have been told that no more will be graded at this time by PCGS and NGC has never slabbed them.

 

TBT

[ArtR]

TBT

Thanks for correcting my error. For some reason I had it in my head that you got them from Marty still in the Sets, and submitted them that way.

Question: What was PCGS reasoning to holder over 200 of these coins, and then all of a sudden stop?

[Weidel Legacy Collection]

I have a 1962 proof set in which the nickel is toned a deep blue/purple on the obverse and mostly blue with some orange on the reverse. I bought this set because of the nickel. What is interesting about it is that the wall between the nickel and quarter sections isn't there (flaw in packaging) and both coins are able to touch rims. The quarter has very dark rims with a mottled orange toning on the reverse. In this case it appears the interaction between the two coins could be partially responsible for the toning.

[291fifth]

With significant premiums being paid for toned Jeffersons you can be certain that many AT coins will be coming to market. Online auctions will be the likely entry point. Do you really want to pay significant money for a coin with questionable originality? Suspecting that fakery is going on I would pay no premium at all for toning.

[Tonekiller-migration]

TBT

Thanks for correcting my error. For some reason I had it in my head that you got them from Marty still in the Sets, and submitted them that way.

Question: What was PCGS reasoning to holder over 200 of these coins, and then all of a sudden stop?

 

Market saturation and a bunch of AT nickels are hitting the services.

 

TBT

[ArtR]

TBT:

Thanks for the response. Strange they would stop holdering them because of Market saturation. This doesn't seem to bother them in other series where the toning is questionable.

 

[BushMan]

That top coin, the '64, is a $3 bill with flourescent lights! Probably goes in a PCI holder???

[gmarguli]

TBT

Thanks for correcting my error. For some reason I had it in my head that you got them from Marty still in the Sets, and submitted them that way.

Question: What was PCGS reasoning to holder over 200 of these coins, and then all of a sudden stop?

 

Market saturation and a bunch of AT nickels are hitting the services.

 

TBT

 

 

So they are basically admitting they cannot tell the difference between AT and NT on these coins. That's sad.

 

As for "market saturation" that is very odd. What about market saturation for PR69 moderns or MS63 common Morgan dollars or modern bullion coins? Are they refusing to slab these now?

 

When you said that "NGC has never slabbed them" does that mean you've never tried or that NGC has bagged all the ones you sent to them?

[CarlWohlforth]

I have a few of those nickels. PCGS graded the first I sent in. Lately both NGC and PCGS have rejected them.

 

I have no information, one way or the other, on how they came to be toned like that.

[Tonekiller-migration]

So they are basically admitting they cannot tell the difference between AT and NT on these coins. That's sad.

 

As for "market saturation" that is very odd. What about market saturation for PR69 moderns or MS63 common Morgan dollars or modern bullion coins? Are they refusing to slab these now?

 

When you said that "NGC has never slabbed them" does that mean you've never tried or that NGC has bagged all the ones you sent to them?

 

 

I showed the same group to Brian (NCS) the day before they went to PCGS and he said that NGC would not slab them.

 

Greg, I made the comment about market saturation...sorry for the confusion. PCGS and NGC are both very concerned and careful because of all the new doctoring going on. After we started to get our group of nickels back from PCGS there were 100’s of neon toned 5c’s showing up all of a sudden. These coins have wild toning patterns and 4+ colors to each coin……artificial color. I feel that PCGS made a decision to be conservative on slabbing anymore of them at this time.

 

TBT

[braddick]

So they are basically admitting they cannot tell the difference between AT and NT on these coins. That's sad.

 

As for "market saturation" that is very odd. What about market saturation for PR69 moderns or MS63 common Morgan dollars or modern bullion coins? Are they refusing to slab these now?

 

When you said that "NGC has never slabbed them" does that mean you've never tried or that NGC has bagged all the ones you sent to them?

 

 

I showed the same group to Brian (NCS) the day before they went to PCGS and he said that NGC would not slab them.

 

Greg, I made the comment about market saturation...sorry for the confusion. PCGS and NGC are both very concerned and careful because of all the new doctoring going on. After we started to get our group of nickels back from PCGS there were 100’s of neon toned 5c’s showing up all of a sudden. These coins have wild toning patterns and 4+ colors to each coin……artificial color. I feel that PCGS made a decision to be conservative on slabbing anymore of them at this time.

 

TBT

'Conservative' would have been to set the standard BEFORE holdering 240 of them, but I get your point.

 

NGC holdered the "Apalachian Hoard" of colorfully toned War Nickels- Jeffersons PCGS refused to cross (several attempts were made!) so maybe this is 'payback' on NGC's part. Or, better still, possibly NGC realized, in advance, the pandora's box they would be opening by stating these coins are "real".

[ArtR]

NGC holdered the "Apalachian Hoard" of colorfully toned War Nickels- Jeffersons PCGS refused to cross (several attempts were made!)

I believe this was the bias thing coming back into play, as most of the nickels in this hoard carry colors which are typical for a War Nickel.

[C.Urch]

I have a 1962 proof set in which the nickel is toned a deep blue/purple on the obverse and mostly blue with some orange on the reverse. I bought this set because of the nickel. What is interesting about it is that the wall between the nickel and quarter sections isn't there (flaw in packaging) and both coins are able to touch rims. The quarter has very dark rims with a mottled orange toning on the reverse. In this case it appears the interaction between the two coins could be partially responsible for the toning.

 

Bingo!

[TomB]

I have successfully crossed Appalachian Hoard nickels from NGC to PCGS and they went up in grade!

[braddick]

I have successfully crossed Appalachian Hoard nickels from NGC to PCGS and they went up in grade!

Tom, you're the first I've heard! Even Kim, the originator of this hoard stated to me (admittingly, awhile back) that no coin has crossed. Do you have any pictures?

 

[robbitheokie-migration]

Well just to throw my hat into the ring, I have four jeffersons that are still sealed in the mint cello, and they are purple they look much like the 1964 that is pictured in the post, but not quite as deep purple but no doubt purple, as for the back of that coin that is the first one i have ever seen that had purple blue and red on the same coin, so actually it is probably AT, but they do tone purple and are kinda hard to come by, I have 1,1961 and 2, 1962 and 1, 1964.

[truthteller]

When I was a younger collector, proof sets from the 60's had purple/blue nickels within the cello. Usually it was a set that was badly or improperly stored. Heat will turn the coin colors, just live an oven will.

 

TRUTH

[Russ-migration]

The first coin linked is 100% real. I've seen it in person and I know both the seller and the origin of the coin. It was pulled from a proof set already toned like that, and was part of the hoard that Marty had.

 

I have to agree, though, that a lot of bogus coins are showing up. Toning like that one is very rare and occurs only under special circumstances. The garden variety toned pieces are predominently blue or gold and sometimes a mixture of both.

 

Russ, NCNE

[gmarguli]

The first coin linked is 100% real. I've seen it in person and I know both the seller and the origin of the coin. It was pulled from a proof set already toned like that, and was part of the hoard that Marty had.

 

Russ, what about this coin from the same seller?

 

[Russ-migration]

I've also seen that one, and it also is real. Matter of fact, I was with the seller when he bought the proof set.

 

Edited: I just mixed that coin up with another. The seller bought it as part of a group of 23, all of which were still in the mint cello cut from sets. I viewed them all before they were cut out, so it is the real deal.

 

Okay, edited again: It was part of the group of 23, but now that I think about it, not all were in mint celo. Some were in 2x2's, and I can't remember if this one was or wasn't. I have CRS.

 

Russ, NCNE

[jbsteven1-migration]

I am a regular posted on the PCGS board under the name: jbsteven

 

I bought this group of 239 nickels from TBT and can say they are my best seller. I would say that since they are PCGS holdered that most collectors would take them as being NT. Do I think they are AT or NT? I asked Marty where he got them from and he stated he cut them out of the cello himself and I trust his word. If I would have cut them out myself then I could tell you they are NT.

 

I can guarantee the value of these holdered by PCGS nickels will only go up.

 

The second coin pictured at the top of this thread is one I sold to the Ebay seller.