NGC, what are you doing? (re: AT Coins)

[Tonelover-migration]

Here's the NGC certified Washington Carver being discussed across the street.

 

Ebay auction

 

Here's where the guy bought it:

What a deal!

 

Here are items for sale by tonecoin2003:

Miracle coins!

 

His coins have been the laughing stock of ebay for months now, it is incredible to see some of them being holdered. I have done a lot of defending of NGC in my time, but guys, you're not making my job any easier.

 

Is it any wonder I'm not buying many toned coins at all these days?

[cointagious]

i know a guy that tones coins for a living. about 80% of his creations are in pcgs holders the other in ngc. one batch goes here, one batch goes there.

as long as they look good, so what?

[K6AZ]

I see in the last 30 days he has listed 191 auctions. Only a handful have been NGC coins. He also sold this:

 

PCGS Roosevelt Dime

 

So, judging from what everyone is saying about the NGC coin, I guess he got at least one past PCGS as well.

 

The jist of these threads lately has been that NGC slabs AT coins. Neither PCGS or NGC is perfect, I have seen questionable coins in both holders. The question you have to ask is how many body bags has he got back from NGC?

[Please Delete-migration]

What color do you think that background really is on the bright neon toned pictures? And do you think that is a 1000 or 2000 watt bulb he is shining on it? What is the most current version of Photoshop? Enquiring minds want to know.

 

To me, I would think that the picture in the holder is closer to what the coin actually looks like. Dark and kind of lifeless with some colors underneath. Real? AT? I have no clue but I don't know if I would totally believe the first two pics.

 

BTW: It is not the first tonecoin NGC coin:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3036958847

 

Couldn't tell you much about that one either but thought I'd put it out there.

 

 

[GDJMSP]

I think it has more to do with a certain phrase - market acceptable. It is my belief that both companies assign grades based on what is - market acceptable. It is also my belief that both companies slab coins that have artificial toning - as long as they are - market acceptable. If I am wrong - then someone please correct me.

 

For anyone to try and point fingers at either company and insinuate that one company is better or worse than the other because of this - well that's just plain foolish.

[Dog97]

You're a day late & a dollar short Tonelover because I posted this very coin yesterday in the "did the coin doctor get lucky part 2 thread"

Like I said in the other thread here "Not only is the blue & red color strange but the pattern is too. I try to think imagine the step by step process of how this coin toned like this and can't think of any kind of holder, album, roll or bag that gives this pattern"

I think the general consenus so far is that it is questionable but Market Acceptable.

[barberlover-migration]

I think the point is not bashing one service over another, rather that people have gotton so good at AT'ing some coins that they are even fooling the expert graders, so if I see a toning job that looks to good to be true I will pass even if NGC or PCGS thinks it's NT.

 

Les

[dragon]

barberlover,

 

I've seen some of the work by this person in question selling his wares on Ebay, and they are not good, not good at all, if fact, they look like dog excrement to anyone who knows toned material. As far as coin docs go, that guy is at the bottom of the barrel IMO.

 

I don't think that NGC can give any reasonable explanation as to why they holdered his work other than to just say they fell asleep at the switch momentarily and it was a mistake on their part.

 

I have also recently seen a few rainbow toned Peace dollars in NGC holders that were the work of a somewhat more talented coin doc, but clearly AT'd regardless, NGC has to be a bit more careful going forward IMO.

 

dragon

[gmarguli]

If I were to sell AT coins I would do it the way this guy is doing it. Put up a bunch of raw AT (maybe a couple in lesser grading service slabs) and mix in a few NT coins in PCGS/NGC/ANACS slabs. It's the perfect set-up to fool people.

 

As for the dime in the PCGS slab that K6AZ posted, that coin is without a doubt 100% original natural toning.

 

According to a grading service: The doctors come up with a new way to AT/different look/different type/change something and they submit them. We slab a few in the beginning and them we wise up. We either notice too many coming in all of a sudden or doctors we work with alert us to this new type of work or the doctor brags or tells the wrong person. Regardless, we catch on. Some coins get thru in the beginning and we'll buy back our mistakes.

 

All the services get bit by the doctors.

[K6AZ]

As for the dime in the PCGS slab that K6AZ posted, that coin is without a doubt 100% original natural toning.

 

Exactly, and that is my point. I agree with you, I think he is buying NT coins as "loss leaders" to try to lend legitimacy to his AT garbage.

 

[barberlover-migration]

Last fall at a Minneapolis coin show, I was checking out the different tables on the bourse floor when I overheard a very loud heated exchange between a collector and a dealer that sounded like one of those "Tastes great, Less filling" Beer commercials.

 

They were debating the possibility of a pcgs 65 morgan being AT or NT, I got curious and I asked to see the dollar in question, the dealer took the coin out and handed it to me and the coin was tootsie pop purple on both sides of the coin !!!!

 

I looked at the coin for a minute, handed it back to the dealer and smiled, of course the dealer asked since I didn't volunter and my answer was retorical, I said what do you think would cause a silver dollar to naturally tone a single shade of purple completly evenly and cover both sides of the same coin in exactly the same shade of purple ? I'm not saying I know for sure, but I wouldn't buy it.

 

Les

[Dog97]

Maybe I think backwards but when I see these scammers that I've watched for months & years sell their AT junk and they start salting it with holdered coins I don't think it adds any credibility to them. The first thing I think is look, he's getting his junk holdered!

When these snakes first start selling their junk it's always low grade circulated stuff that looks like it has been colored with a magic marker or crayon.

The we dig and imagine what we find-they have been buying hotplates & chemicals-yeah, it's right there in their feedback history! About that time their junks starts looking better & less ameuterish and guess what? People start buying it like hotcakes.$30-$50 per Morgan. Is that what makes it Market Acceptable? It sells on the market and is that what it takes for a service to holder it?

[coinman1794]

Maybe I think backwards but when I see these scammers that I've watched for months & years sell their AT junk and they start salting it with holdered coins I don't think it adds any credibility to them. The first thing I think is look, he's getting his junk holdered!

When these snakes first start selling their junk it's always low grade circulated stuff that looks like it has been colored with a magic marker or crayon.

The we dig and imagine what we find-they have been buying hotplates & chemicals-yeah, it's right there in their feedback history! About that time their junks starts looking better & less ameuterish and guess what? People start buying it like hotcakes.$30-$50 per Morgan. Is that what makes it Market Acceptable? It sells on the market and is that what it takes for a service to holder it?

 

Fortunately, I don't think its quite that cut and dry with the grading services. The graders do attempt to catch AT coins, but there are some that are borderline - that they may not be able to tell for sure, that will get through simply because, if the graders can't tell, it must be "market acceptable." I personally would like the grading services to reject anything that even comes close to borderline questionable.

[jom]

As for the dime in the PCGS slab that K6AZ posted, that coin is without a doubt 100% original natural toning.

 

Greg: If you have seen what I've seen I think you'd change your mind about that Roosey.

 

jom

[jtryka]

This all makes me very happy to collect gold...