The Shocking Truth: You're Clueless. Period. (Not For The Faint of Heart)

[cladking]

The simple fact is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Beauty is also an acquired taste that is developed with expertise or familiarity. As a collector learns what the finest coins look like he will also learn how they are similar in some ways such as toning and how they became this way. This will lead him to see more beauty in those which are "best".

 

People pay huge premiums for beauty of toning which, frankly, I find surprising simply because it can be duplicated, simulated, or baked right in. Obviously experts can spot many individual coins as definitely original toning or as artificial, but there will be many individual coins that are strictly judgement calls and these can be just as beautiful to some collectors as the most naturally toned coins.

 

It's not so much time that determines AT from NT as intent so collectors are wise to follow Gmarguli's advice. Indeed, I would even add that you might try to learn to like other sorts of original surfaces as well. There are never gaurantees that what is popular today will be popular in the future and paying premiums of thousands of percent might be counterproductive no matter haw beautiful a coin is.

 

Buy what you like and there's nothing wrong with beautiful. But acrimonious debate about what exactly is original toning and its value is probably detrimental to the hobby. Coming to virtual fisticuffs over a disagreement about the toning in a picture of a coin on the internet is just a little silly.

 

The status quo will probably survive on this for years one way or the other but whether you buy a coin that's "market acceptable" or not remember that you are the final arbiter and you are responsible.

[Elcontador]

Greg, I don't like the term 'original' for reasons you mentioned & I don't use it. 'Acceptable' is relative, as apparently, some coins which are acceptable to a number of buyers and to PCGS and NGC, are not acceptable to me.

 

One of the major problems I have about "drive through toning" (no, I don't want fries with that), is how this particular coin will look six months, or two years from now. I have a pretty good idea of how a Wayte Raymond coin will look, and I'm fine with that.

 

However, I have serious reservations re the five second job re how such coin will look in the not too distant future.

 

I'm not concerned what other people think. I've articulated what it NT vs. AT to me, and that is how I judge coins. I have seen people pay high four figures and sometimes five figures on a number of occasions for coins which to me, were obviously artificially toned. If I see the TPGs slab more coins which are AT by my definitions, I will buy fewer coins. I also think it will seriously damage the hobby.

[Bruceswar]

late to this thread.. but I agree with Greg for the most part on his points!

[Bruceswar]

Back to the top for newer guys... Read and learn!

[Dcoin]

Back to the top for newer guys... Read and learn!

 

Learn what?

Learn that I'm a 'clueless' collector?

Or that some dealers have taken the 'I just work here' road?

Or perhaps because coins are not the center of my universe that I'm a 'hypocrite' and should post on these boards?

I know there are grains of truth there, but seems a little elitist and insulting all the same.

 

Edit to fix grammar

[Bruceswar]

Back to the top for newer guys... Read and learn!

 

Learn what?

Learn that I'm a 'clueless' collector?

Or that some dealers have taken the 'I just work here' road?

Or perhaps because coins are not the center of my universe that I'm a 'hypocrite' and should post on these boards?

I know there is gains of truth there, but seems a little elitist and insulting all the same.

 

Elitist, Nope not at all. He is just telling the facts like it is. The Hypocrite part was referring to people who go WOW over a coin and then find out it is AT(whatever AT means to you). Then these same people bash the coin as ugly and a mockery. Greg is just preaching the same things I have been saying that a buyer needs to own up to his mistakes and not pass the buck around. He is saying if you bought the coin you should at least know what you are buying. In short to sum it up, learn as much as you can, and you will be fine making good decisions most of the time. There is alot to know about collecting and MANY collectors really are clueless, not all but alot. There is a good base of knowledge here, but this is only a very small part of the collecting community. Just think of all the people that buy off "Coin Vault" If you know where to look and what you like, you can find some really killer deals out there.

[bsshog40]

In a short, "Buy What pleases You"!!!

[Bruceswar]

In a short, "Buy What pleases You"!!!

 

I agree 100%, but also what you can afford to lose as well.

[Stanley]

I’m clueless, is there anything you can tell me that might help me improve my collection and my buying habits and spending sprees?

[Bruceswar]

I think many of you all are reading too much into the clueless part. The point he is making is you have no idea what has happened to a coin before it comed into your hands, plain and simple. We all have come to know a "look" for certain coins, such as original or cleaned, but in fact we cannot be 100% sure. Read inbetween the lines and there is alot to learn from this post.

[EZ_E]

I’m clueless, is there anything you can tell me that might help me improve my collection and my buying habits and spending sprees?

 

I'd suggest to not buy a raw coin over $100 until you can spot a no grade, problem coin. And don't buy third world slabs, either. I got burned plenty in my rookie days by buying overpriced, problem $hite in unreputable slabs and raw alike.

[Stanley]

I’m clueless, is there anything you can tell me that might help me improve my collection and my buying habits and spending sprees?

 

I'd suggest to not buy a raw coin over $100 until you can spot a no grade, problem coin. And don't buy third world slabs, either. I got burned plenty in my rookie days by buying overpriced, problem $hite in unreputable slabs and raw alike.

 

Your telling me not to buy anything till I can find a problem coin for over 100.00.

[Zoins]

I’m clueless, is there anything you can tell me that might help me improve my collection and my buying habits and spending sprees?

I'd suggest to not buy a raw coin over $100 until you can spot a no grade, problem coin. And don't buy third world slabs, either. I got burned plenty in my rookie days by buying overpriced, problem $hite in unreputable slabs and raw alike.

Your telling me not to buy anything till I can find a problem coin for over 100.00.

He's suggesting that you don't buy anything raw until you can spot problems. If you buy coins on the Internet, many raw coins over $100 have problems. If you know and understand that you should be ok, however many people buy raw coins thinking they are fine and get an unpleasant surprise later. This isn't to say slabbed coins don't have problems and haven't been doctored but at least slabbed coins are market acceptable.

[Wihlborg]

This isn't to say slabbed coins don't have problems and haven't been doctored but at least slabbed coins are market acceptable.

 

Not always.

 

John

[CarlWohlforth]

I missed this post until now.

 

<<5) Buy what you like. Period.>>

 

This sounds suspiciously like dorkkarl! I'd almost believe it except I don't see Greg posting much about early copper...

[MikeInFL]

This isn't to say slabbed coins don't have problems and haven't been doctored but at least slabbed coins are market acceptable.

 

For now and to some. Slabbing is hardly a panacea.

[WoodenJefferson]

Back to the top for newer guys... Read and learn!

 

Do you want to know how, where and what I learned from in this post? The actual learning was from a handful of people who took the time to respond to the OP with a very intellectual and fascinating bit of dialog.

 

I learned more from the well thought out responses about a hobby that is on the verge of change, than the "rant" which inspired those responses.

 

Even the best mentors have gone through a learning curve, that's why they can pass along only the best of information to those who seek and the learning process goes forever forward.

 

To derail this process is a travesty and unfair to those who need to be nurtured into believing that there is hope at the end of this ever changing tunnel.

 

Going on vacation, ya'll keep the fighting and the biting out in the gutter where it belongs.

[Bruceswar]

Weather yoy learned from the OP or the responses, good info was shared all around and needed to be seen again.

[JKK]

I took it the way people who actually learn from my financial advice do. If it's tough truth, sometimes you need to hear it put in blunt and shocking terms to come to grips with it.

 

What I would like to know is what I should read that could help repair my ignorance. I'm sure that the long-term solution is to own a coin store (thus seeing a lot of coins pass through), and lose a lot of money getting rooked, but I'd like to educate myself as much as possible before wasting tons of money. If there is a really good book on spotting coin tampering, I'm willing to buy it.

[Bruceswar]

A good place to start is the First editition PCGS(Guide to grading and counterfiet detection) put it out. That has some good tips in it to watch out for.

[JKK]

A good place to start is the First editition PCGS(Guide to grading and counterfiet detection) put it out. That has some good tips in it to watch out for.

Sounds great. I'll happily spend $14 to avoid wasting thousands any day. The one on Amazon is the second edition, according to the entry; is that inferior in some way to the first edition? (If so, it wouldn't be the first time something got worse when someone tried to 'improve' it.)

 

What do you think of Scott Travers' Coin Collectors' Survival Manual? It's been awhile since I read it, but it seemed to echo most of the views in the initial post, which probably was one reason I was receptive.

[Bruceswar]

That is also a great Book. I own edition 2 of the book. Past the countfiet section, the grading is rather useless. MS grades are a waste in that book. Try and look for Edition 1. Good luck! Also get ANA Grading guide.

[cpm9ball]

Greg, you sure have a way of getting the juices flowing. I was beginning to think that some of the members had fallen asleep around here. Wow, 2500 posts in 40 hours or so! I have always appreciated your forthrightedness. Thanks!

 

I've said this before, "If everyone liked the same things, there would be no need for Chevrolet, Ford, Cadillac, Mercedes, etc." If everyone liked the same things in their coin-collecting, there would be no controversy over NT and AT. Unfortunately, the fact that there are collectors who are willing to pay a substantial premium for NT is part of the equation. They are just as responsible for creating this controversy as anyone.

 

It seems there will always be many unanswered and provocative questions:

 

Can anyone honestly say that the Battle Creek collection wasn't just a grand experiment of decades past? Who was the person who first coined the term "NT"? What was the motivation for it? Was it because someone wanted to justify and protect their investment? Or, was it simply because it was in the eye of a different beholder?

 

Why should there be such a vast difference in value between coins toned one way and coins toned another? What would be the result in appreciation or depreciation if the actual value of NT coins and AT coins were the same? In a similar but unrelated situation, what will be the impact of the recent sale of a 2003 Lincoln Cent, Business Strike in MS70 for $15,000 on all other Business Strikes that are graded MS70? What would happen to the purchaser's investment if all other Business Strikes actually sold for far less? Wouldn't it be a good idea if that buyer encouraged all other buyers in the marketplace to follow the lead?

 

Why shouldn't my Mom's paintings be worth just as much as any Michelangelo, Picasso, Renoir or Degas? What makes their paintings more beautiful than hers? Is it not that it is in the eye of a different beholder?

 

While I respect the right of everyone, here, to their own opinions, we must not lose sight of the fact that everyone, in one way or another, is trying to validate their own purpose.

 

Greg, Tooth, CT, Hoot and everyone else....................Thank you!

 

Chris

[Stanley]

Look at the date on the first post

[cpm9ball]

Look at the date on the first post

 

Duh! I'll put my motto on my sig line to good use this time!

 

Chris

[Wihlborg]

Very well said Chris.

 

John

[Keleum]

As a programmer with an advanced degree in computer science I know exactly what your talking about. Greg. Every book I've ever read and every tech note I've reviewed is publicly available to anyone. And for the most part have been re-written so many times and dumbed-down anyone can understand it.

 

Every first year college student has written a "hidden" low level OS process in windows, come on. <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rootkit'> RootKits </a> are hardly a sophisticated attack.

 

And here's a clue, if your computer is acting funny, FIX IT!!! It's your computer, you bought it, it's your responsiblity. Who hasn't heard of the windows registry, I know I've personally told dozens and dozens of people about the registry and about normailzed databases, in several different mediums and in person!!! There's plenty of books, and tech notes on the problems your having. I mean how much more can we software developers do for you.

 

Look at this collector's society software or chat-ware in general. My god!! How simple does this stuff have to get, I mean 3 moderators and a programmer or 2. Is it really worth that to protect people from themselves.

 

Your "encrypted" wireless network can be broken into in under a second, its your own fault if you dont check who's logged into your network.

 

Sorry for rambling, but it's a universal truth, no matter what industry your in

"People are stupid"

 

;-) [that's a wink emoticon, look it up!!]

[Zoins]

Should this be turned into a WYNTK?

[Dcoin]

Should this be turned into a WYNTK?

 

WYNTK is for facts... this thread squarely falls under opinion.

[gmarguli]

Should this be turned into a WYNTK?

 

Go back to page #1 and you'll see where supertooth & CTcollector whined when WYNTK was put in the title. They apparently feel that they own the "WYNTK" title.