The Shocking Truth: You're Clueless. Period. (Not For The Faint of Heart)

[MikeInFL]

In my opinion, the title shoud be changed to "What Greg Thinks He Knows" or "How Greg Rationalizes His Alleged Unethical Actions".

 

I'm with Dcoin -- this is opinion, and not even one that a majority would agree with.

 

[edited for clarity]

[okbustchaser]

So, most of what I have read in the WYNTK threads is opinion stated as fact.

[MikeInFL]

So, most of what I have read in the WYNTK threads is opinion stated as fact.

 

A fair point. However, I would suggest that the vast majority of the opinions stated in other WYNTK are those that the most if not all of us would agree with, and they are presented in a respectful way. The same cannot be said of Greg's patronizing attempt woven in such a way as to absolve himself from acting with integrity...Mike

[Zoins]

Greg's controversial threads seem to be educational in a way that PC threads are not.

[MikeInFL]

If there is a really good book on spotting coin tampering, I'm willing to buy it.

 

There is no substitute for first-hand experience and seeing coins in-hand. That said, I think you will find threads on this and the PCGS forums to be far more educational on this topic than anything you will find in print...Mike

[MikeInFL]

Greg's controversial threads seem to be educational in a way that PC threads are not.

 

I don't disagree, and although you might not guess from the tone taken, I do appreciate his candidness, if not his method or actions.

 

That said, I'm sure Greg is more than capable of presenting his viewpoint in a less insulting manner. One can educate without being supercilious.

 

If Greg wishes to have a WYNTK thread, perhaps he should consider toning down the rhetoric and focus on educating. If he did, I'm sure the objections to it becoming a WYNTK would evaporate...Mike

[Stanley]

I’m not going to criticize the WYNK threads however I think it is important to note that Greg’s post has not been censored, the WYNK post have.

[Dcoin]

Found ATS...is this true?

 

Russ

Coin Ferengi

 

Posts: 55692

Joined: Apr 2002

Thursday April 19, 2007 11:45 AM

 

 

For those who are not aware, that was posted by an admitted coin doctor in an attempt to rationalize his own actions.

 

Russ, NCNE

[Bruceswar]

The "Coin" doctering part russ speaks of is when Greg treated some coins with MS70 and they turned colors. MS 70 is sold at many coin shops. Look for the blue toned copper threads.

[MAULEMALL]

Found ATS...is this true?

 

Russ

Coin Ferengi

 

Posts: 55692

Joined: Apr 2002

Thursday April 19, 2007 11:45 AM

 

 

For those who are not aware, that was posted by an admitted coin doctor in an attempt to rationalize his own actions.

 

Russ, NCNE

One persons doctor is anothers curator.

Russ is someone I respect and in truth owe a debt as I have earned a wage off of the knowlage he has imparted...I just don't agree with that statement.

 

 

Live and learn dude...As I read the posts across the street it seems that A VAST MAJORITY agree with Greg's post...The only preoblem any saw with it was the delivery...I feel that they need to look inside themselves to ask Why.

[gmarguli]

I find it rather funny/sad/predictable how a large number of posters over there want to break this post down into two categories. It's either all wrong since it was worded harshly or it is me rationalizing my actions.

 

The typical person who posts that is the type of clueless collector who does not understand, won't learn, and will never understand the industry. They are the ones buying garbage and thinking they are hot *spoon*. A little knowledge is dangerous. And you have several people over there following others with little knowledge.

 

Just so some people can get a clue:

 

1) It needs to be harshly worded because soft kisses on the forehead don't seem to be getting thru to a lot of people. Hell, harshly worded isn't even getting thru.

 

2) I don't need to rationalize any of my actions in life to anyone on any forums. I do as I wish and I personally see fit. I don't need validation from others, especially those anonymous people on an internet chat site. Everyone else should do as they personally see fit and not let (many hypocritical) others get righteous.

 

3) At least two of the posters who took shots over there are ATers. One used to sell raw on eBay and has helped another forum member cheat some buyers out of money. The other is a bigger player in the AT game. I've been reliably told that they get a fair amount of their work into PCGS slab and many are sold by another forum member. Actually, some have even been sold to other forums members!

 

4) No, I'm not going to tell you who they are - even if I like you and you PM me and ask nicely. No!

[MunkyMan95]

Pretty please with a cherry on top?

[Zoins]

3) At least two of the posters who took shots over there are ATers. One used to sell raw on eBay and has helped another forum member cheat some buyers out of money. The other is a bigger player in the AT game. I've been reliably told that they get a fair amount of their work into PCGS slab and many are sold by another forum member. Actually, some have even been sold to other forums members!

Maybe they want to perpetuate the myth of their ATed "original" coins?

[WinstonWare]

even if I like you and you PM me and ask nicely

 

Greg, I didn't know that you liked people. This is an epiphanic moment for me. In all seriousness though, I have always appreciated your candor and I believe that it is a strong asset to our board.

[MunkyMan95]

even if I like you and you PM me and ask nicely

 

Greg, I didn't know that you liked people. This is an epiphanic moment for me. In all seriousness though, I have always appreciated your candor and I believe that it is a strong asset to our board.

 

You're on a roll Winston! I agree again!

[WinstonWare]

even if I like you and you PM me and ask nicely

 

Greg, I didn't know that you liked people. This is an epiphanic moment for me. In all seriousness though, I have always appreciated your candor and I believe that it is a strong asset to our board.

 

You're on a roll Winston! I agree again!

 

Sweet

[gmarguli]

even if I like you and you PM me and ask nicely

 

Greg, I didn't know that you liked people.

 

There are some. I like to refer to them as "the exception that proves the rule".

[Fjord-migration]

I must protest. While I agree with some of your points, your hyperbole makes you ridiculous. This is slighly modified from a post ATS.

 

1) There is no such thing as Artificial Toning. There is just toning. Period.

I disagree. That's like saying there's no such thing as cleaning, only wear.

 

While you're correct to say that people can't reliably tell AT from NT nor, in my opinion, cleaning from wear, that does not mean it is perfectly acceptable to tamper with a coin and not tell people what you've done.

 

2) There is no such thing as an original coin - at least not one that is more than a few years old. Period.

 

You say you like original coins that aren't messed with. You sound like a *spoon*.

That's a rather crass misrepresentation. I'd rather have a coin that is as original as possible.

 

Yes, time will change the coin's surface, but admitting that fact does not mean that tampering with the coin is acceptable.

 

I'd rather have a coin that's untampered with. period. That doesn't make a hypocrite out of anyone.

 

Recently there was a thread across the street showing a Seated quarter that went from toned MS65 to blast white MS66. A bunch of wankers cried about the loss of yet another original coin. Yet, none of them stepped up to buy the original coin. Lots of talk, but all of it hypocritical bull [embarrassing lack of self control]. Practically everyone of the wankers there would have dipped that coin had they had the balls to risk $5K.

Nope. But then again, I collect coins rather than sell them. I'd prefer the undipped coin.

 

We all like pretty coins.

Some of us like ugly coins too.

 

Most non-modern collector quality coins have been messed with at least once. Slabbed, raw, whatever, it doesn't matter. My estimate is 80% of non-modern collector quality coins in slabs have been messed with. The other 20% probably wasn't worth it.

What's your source? I hear this repeated so often, and it's never questioned.

 

3) The grading services should NOT be the last line of defense against questionable coins. Period.

On this point, we agree.

 

4) You're not experts. You're hypocrites. Period.

 

Stop oohing and aahing over coins today and bashing them tomorrow. They're the same coins. You know, little round pieces of metal with images and words stamped on them.

 

I know, now you know something and your opinion has change. It was pretty last week, but awful this week. Screw you! It's the SAME coin. Stop your whiny person_without_enough_empathying! You either like it or don't. Stop changing your opinion.

Finding out that a coin has most likely been tampered with is going to change my opinion.

 

I purchased a coin from a reputable dealer that in photos appeared lovely. In hand it was also lovely, but magnification showed telltale signs of an old cleaning. I liked the coin a lot less afterwards. Sorry if that bothers you, but it doesn't make me a hypocrite.

 

5) Buy what you like. Period.

 

Do you like the look of it? Is it priced right?

...Has it been altered by someone trying to make it look more "market acceptable"?

 

Shocked that the blast white Barber half turns out to have been dipped. Whose fault is that? (plus many more similar examples, snipped)

The fault is the person who altered the coin, obviously. We can educate ourselves the best we can, but sometimes you simply cannot tell if something has been dipped or cleaned. Even the TPGs can't always tell. Therefore, it is the people who are altering and damaging these coins that are the ones at fault. If they sold the coin as "gently wiped, then dipped in MS70 to remove some ugly toning" then I'd say otherwise.

 

Fact: Most old white silver coins have been dipped in acid.

I don't disagree, but what is the source for this?

[gmarguli]

I believe you missed the point. And I believe that these statements you made have been asked/answered before in this thread, but I will repeat since this is your first post here and many others will not read the entire thread.

 

 

1) There is no such thing as Artificial Toning. There is just toning. Period.

I disagree. That's like saying there's no such thing as cleaning, only wear.

 

Incorrect. There is no industry accepted definition of AT. As in my original post I listed some examples of how a coin tones. Same result, just different reasons behind the toning. Many would call one AT and the other NT. It's semantics. Cleaning/wear is a totally different story.

 

 

 

2) There is no such thing as an original coin - at least not one that is more than a few years old. Period.

 

You say you like original coins that aren't messed with. You sound like a *spoon*.

That's a rather crass misrepresentation. I'd rather have a coin that is as original as possible.

 

And what qualifies you to declare a coin is original as possible? The point is that people do not know what is original. We only guess at what we think is original. The market calls blue copper original enough times and it becomes original. The market calls monster toned Morgans original enough times and they become original. The market calls white Bust coinage original enough times and it becomes original.

 

 

 

We all like pretty coins.

Some of us like ugly coins too.

 

Next time I have some ugly coins for sale, I'll contact you. FYI, I'll want pretty coin prices for them as it's pretty easy to take an ugly coin and turn it pretty.

 

 

Most non-modern collector quality coins have been messed with at least once. Slabbed, raw, whatever, it doesn't matter. My estimate is 80% of non-modern collector quality coins in slabs have been messed with. The other 20% probably wasn't worth it.

What's your source? I hear this repeated so often, and it's never questioned.

 

My source is a combination of 20+ years of experience, the handling of millions of dollars worth of coins, the memory of what many coins looked like before slabs took over and what they look like now where one grade point makes a massive price difference, the multi-year friendship with one of the top coin doctors in the US who has since made many of the hoard coins slabbed today, the personal working of many coins to see what can be done and to know what to look for, the talking to many old time dealers/collectors who have enough knowledge to fill volumes of books, the listening to dealers at shows (people really need to do this - you'll learn a lot), and common sense among other things.

 

 

 

 

4) You're not experts. You're hypocrites. Period.

 

Stop oohing and aahing over coins today and bashing them tomorrow. They're the same coins. You know, little round pieces of metal with images and words stamped on them.

 

I know, now you know something and your opinion has change. It was pretty last week, but awful this week. Screw you! It's the SAME coin. Stop your whiny person_without_enough_empathying! You either like it or don't. Stop changing your opinion.

Finding out that a coin has most likely been tampered with is going to change my opinion.

 

Why? If the coin was pretty last week, it is pretty this week. If you see a beautiful woman and then find out she had a nose job, do you now suddenly find her not as beautiful?

 

 

 

5) Buy what you like. Period.

 

Do you like the look of it? Is it priced right?

...Has it been altered by someone trying to make it look more "market acceptable"?

 

What does that matter? You either like it at the current price or you don't. This is your hobby. If you need to know the complete history of a coin in order to like it, try only buying from this dealer: www.usmint.gov

 

 

Shocked that the blast white Barber half turns out to have been dipped. Whose fault is that? (plus many more similar examples, snipped)

The fault is the person who altered the coin, obviously. We can educate ourselves the best we can, but sometimes you simply cannot tell if something has been dipped or cleaned. Even the TPGs can't always tell. Therefore, it is the people who are altering and damaging these coins that are the ones at fault. If they sold the coin as "gently wiped, then dipped in MS70 to remove some ugly toning" then I'd say otherwise.

 

Why was the coin altered? Because the market wanted it altered!

 

Unless you've owned the coin since it left the die, you can't tell 100% either. That's why Market Acceptable is what people really need to understand.

 

 

Fact: Most old white silver coins have been dipped in acid.

I don't disagree, but what is the source for this?

 

Common sense and a very basic understanding of how silver reacts with its environment.

[Fjord-migration]

I believe you missed the point. And I believe that these statements you made have been asked/answered before in this thread, but I will repeat since this is your first post here and many others will not read the entire thread.

No, I understood your point quite well. You're saying that since we can't tell the difference between AT and NT, they're the same things. They aren't, anymore than a lie becomes true because we lack the power to detect the falsehood.

 

All I want is for people to be honest and upfront about how coins are altered, wether it's by dipping, storage, or chemical treatment. We don't think it's insane for a company to be honest about how they treat their assets before investing in their product, I don't see why coins should be any different. If, as you say, there's no difference between NT and AT, then being honest about what's done to coins should not negatively affect their value.

 

As it turns out, being honest about what's been done to a coin DOES negatively impact its value, which means your claim that "we're just doing what the market wanted" is false. If the market wanted you to alter coins, it would reward you for advertising it.

 

1) There is no such thing as Artificial Toning. There is just toning. Period.

I disagree. That's like saying there's no such thing as cleaning, only wear.

 

Incorrect. There is no industry accepted definition of AT. As in my original post I listed some examples of how a coin tones. Same result, just different reasons behind the toning. Many would call one AT and the other NT. It's semantics. Cleaning/wear is a totally different story.

I don't see how cleaning is a different story - both can be hard to detect. Either altering a coin deliberately is acceptable or it isn't.

 

2) There is no such thing as an original coin - at least not one that is more than a few years old. Period.

 

You say you like original coins that aren't messed with. You sound like a *spoon*.

That's a rather crass misrepresentation. I'd rather have a coin that is as original as possible.

 

And what qualifies you to declare a coin is original as possible? The point is that people do not know what is original. We only guess at what we think is original. The market calls blue copper original enough times and it becomes original. The market calls monster toned Morgans original enough times and they become original. The market calls white Bust coinage original enough times and it becomes original.

I never said I was "qualified" to declare a coin original. And what qualifies you to say, eiher? You're talking about of both sides of your mouth.

 

You say in one breath that any silver coin that is white and older than a certain age has to have been dipped. At the same time, you say that no one can say what is or is not an original coin.

 

You can't have it both ways. If what we know about coin striking, luster, toning, and reactivity can be used to forumulate a reliable opinion that classic silver coins have been altered, then their appearance should provide information on whether the coin appears original.

 

We all like pretty coins.

Some of us like ugly coins too.

 

Next time I have some ugly coins for sale, I'll contact you. FYI, I'll want pretty coin prices for them as it's pretty easy to take an ugly coin and turn it pretty.

 

Are you willing to tell me what you've done to make a coin look pretty?

 

Most non-modern collector quality coins have been messed with at least once. Slabbed, raw, whatever, it doesn't matter. My estimate is 80% of non-modern collector quality coins in slabs have been messed with. The other 20% probably wasn't worth it.

What's your source? I hear this repeated so often, and it's never questioned.

 

My source is a combination of 20+ years of experience, the handling of millions of dollars worth of coins, the memory of what many coins looked like before slabs took over and what they look like now where one grade point makes a massive price difference, the multi-year friendship with one of the top coin doctors in the US who has since made many of the hoard coins slabbed today, the personal working of many coins to see what can be done and to know what to look for, the talking to many old time dealers/collectors who have enough knowledge to fill volumes of books, the listening to dealers at shows (people really need to do this - you'll learn a lot), and common sense among other things.

How is this different than "because I say so?". My retort is not mere juvenile hubris. Many experts with decades of experience end up being wrong because in their decades of experience they learned a few things early on and never questioned them. There are many forensic hair examiners who had their work overturned by DNA. Their opinion, despite being based on decades of experience, research, study, and the like, was wrong. Why? partially from the limit of the technique, and partially because they never looked for refutation of their initial assumptions, rather they only looked for confirmation. Most were honest and did the best they could, but it didn't make their opinions any less wrong.

 

For example, have you ever looked for a classic coin with a known storage and have it turn up white even after more than 100 years? Any of the 1880s Morgans avoid the dip jar, for example?

 

Finding out that a coin has most likely been tampered with is going to change my opinion.

 

Why? If the coin was pretty last week, it is pretty this week. If you see a beautiful woman and then find out she had a nose job, do you now suddenly find her not as beautiful?

 

Because it's not the coin I thought it was. Does her nose job have detectable scars?

 

5) Buy what you like. Period.

 

Do you like the look of it? Is it priced right?

...Has it been altered by someone trying to make it look more "market acceptable"?

 

What does that matter?

 

You're right that we can't change what people did to coins in the past. But we can change what is done to coins now. The things done to a coin today to make it "market acceptable" will hurt it tomorrow. It'd be better off not being altered in the first place.

 

Shocked that the blast white Barber half turns out to have been dipped. Whose fault is that? (plus many more similar examples, snipped)

The fault is the person who altered the coin, obviously. We can educate ourselves the best we can, but sometimes you simply cannot tell if something has been dipped or cleaned. Even the TPGs can't always tell. Therefore, it is the people who are altering and damaging these coins that are the ones at fault. If they sold the coin as "gently wiped, then dipped in MS70 to remove some ugly toning" then I'd say otherwise.

 

Why was the coin altered? Because the market wanted it altered!

 

Absolutely, postively false. Completely wrong. If the market wanted it altered, then the revelation that it had been altered would not affect the price. Unfortunately, that is not the case. If a coin turns out to be altered, its price drops dramatically.

 

Why? because the market really wants original coins. That you can fool them doesn't change that.

 

Fact: Most old white silver coins have been dipped in acid.

I don't disagree, but what is the source for this?

 

Common sense and a very basic understanding of how silver reacts with its environment.

 

so... you CAN tell if a coin is original?

[CTcollector1]

Looks like Fjord wins the bout by TKO !

 

Awesome

[JamminJ]

Why? because the market really wants original coins. That you can fool them doesn't change that.

 

Please. The market wants coins in slabs with big numbers and that's about it.

[gmarguli]

You're saying that since we can't tell the difference between AT and NT, they're the same things. They aren't, anymore than a lie becomes true because we lack the power to detect the falsehood.

 

No, you missed the point. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AT & NT. It is all a reaction with the metal of a coin. The industry just puts some toning in the Market Acceptable category and some in the Market Unacceptable category. Frequently this is done based on how out of the ordinary the toning is and how easy it is to recreate.

 

 

If, as you say, there's no difference between NT and AT, then being honest about what's done to coins should not negatively affect their value.

 

One does not equal the other. Just because there is no difference between NT & AT does not mean that people in the marketplace won't place different values on the coins because of a label. Look at PF69 vs. PF70. You think most buyers can tell the difference? Yet, they place a great value difference based on a label.

 

 

You say in one breath that any silver coin that is white and older than a certain age has to have been dipped. At the same time, you say that no one can say what is or is not an original coin.

 

You can't have it both ways. If what we know about coin striking, luster, toning, and reactivity can be used to forumulate a reliable opinion that classic silver coins have been altered, then their appearance should provide information on whether the coin appears original.

 

As I've said before, sometimes many people just won't get it.

 

 

Are you willing to tell me what you've done to make a coin look pretty?

 

No. What I will do is sell you ugly coins at pretty prices. As you've stated, the market prizes originality and devalues messed with coins. This should be a winner for you!

 

 

For example, have you ever looked for a classic coin with a known storage and have it turn up white even after more than 100 years? Any of the 1880s Morgans avoid the dip jar, for example?

 

Yes. However, that is the minority of the time. Also, most of those white coins have a skin you can clearly detect. Dipped coins do not. YOU can see the difference, can't YOU?

 

 

Absolutely, postively false. Completely wrong. If the market wanted it altered, then the revelation that it had been altered would not affect the price. Unfortunately, that is not the case. If a coin turns out to be altered, its price drops dramatically.

 

You're kidding yourself. The market wants plastic with lofty numbers. They don't want an original looking richly toned Barber half in MS65 plastic. The market wants that same coin stripped blast white in MS66 plastic. If it didn't, then the market wouldn't place such a high premium on it. Also, the vast majority of buyers cannot tell that a coin has been altered because most all they see are altered coins. A large number of dealers cannot tell as all they see are the finished product.

 

 

so... you CAN tell if a coin is original?

 

It's easier to tell unoriginal than original.

[CTcollector1]

[Absolutely, postively false. Completely wrong. If the market wanted it altered, then the revelation that it had been altered would not affect the price. Unfortunately, that is not the case. If a coin turns out to be altered, its price drops dramatically

 

You're kidding yourself. The market wants plastic with lofty numbers. They don't want an original looking richly toned Barber half in MS65 plastic. The market wants that same coin stripped blast white in MS66 plastic. If it didn't, then the market wouldn't place such a high premium on it. Also, the vast majority of buyers cannot tell that a coin has been altered because most all they see are altered coins. A large number of dealers cannot tell as all they see are the finished product.

 

Not sure what market you continue to refer to. Myself, and other collectors who frequent these boards, routinely buy the lesser grade in lieu of lofty numbers on plastic as the lower graded coin offers tremendously more value. To assume everyone wants blast white and ultimate grades is foolish and arrogant. My advice to you is put away your chemistry set and educate yourself on what is a hobby fad versus a long standing hobby fundamental.

[MikeInFL]

You're saying that since we can't tell the difference between AT and NT, they're the same things. They aren't, anymore than a lie becomes true because we lack the power to detect the falsehood.

 

No, you missed the point. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AT & NT. It is all a reaction with the metal of a coin. The industry just puts some toning in the Market Acceptable category and some in the Market Unacceptable category. Frequently this is done based on how out of the ordinary the toning is and how easy it is to recreate.

 

If there is no difference, why don't you state in your auctions which coins you've ATed?

 

For some of us, honesty doesn't have a price tag....Mike

[James_OldeTowne]

Fjord, Welcome to our friendly little neighborhood!

 

Yes, despite this thread (which I personally find to be a very valuable thread), it really is a friendly area. Glad you're here.

[MAULEMALL]

You're saying that since we can't tell the difference between AT and NT, they're the same things. They aren't, anymore than a lie becomes true because we lack the power to detect the falsehood.

 

No, you missed the point. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AT & NT. It is all a reaction with the metal of a coin. The industry just puts some toning in the Market Acceptable category and some in the Market Unacceptable category. Frequently this is done based on how out of the ordinary the toning is and how easy it is to recreate.

 

If there is no difference, why don't you state in your auctions which coins you've ATed?

 

For some of us, honesty doesn't have a price tag....Mike

[IGWT]

3) At least two of the posters who took shots over there are ATers. One used to sell raw on eBay and has helped another forum member cheat some buyers out of money. The other is a bigger player in the AT game. I've been reliably told that they get a fair amount of their work into PCGS slab and many are sold by another forum member. Actually, some have even been sold to other forums members!

 

Well, judging by the lack of any denial to this accusation in a thread across the street (more like a complete refusal to even address the topic), I'd say it's more likely true than not.

[gmarguli]

3) At least two of the posters who took shots over there are ATers. One used to sell raw on eBay and has helped another forum member cheat some buyers out of money. The other is a bigger player in the AT game. I've been reliably told that they get a fair amount of their work into PCGS slab and many are sold by another forum member. Actually, some have even been sold to other forums members!

 

Well, judging by the lack of any denial to this accusation in a thread across the street (more like a complete refusal to even address the topic), I'd say it's more likely true than not.

 

What I find interesting is that Laura - who brought this on herself by attacking me and playing the Moral Queen of the Coin Universe - is refusing to address the fact that she sold me a doctored coin without mention of it. And she states that she wanted the coin back so she could sell it to others, yet never contacted me about it. Yes people, stay away from wannabes and only deal with professionals like Laura!

 

Sorry, I honestly like Laura, but sometimes she has to realize that her *spoon* stinks as much as everyone else's.

[Tradedollarnut]

If you don't like the coin, send it back - no restocking charge. I'm sure her comment pertains to the color as I doubt the coin was even examined for a spot. I have no idea who owned the coin, but I know for a fact that if it was mine I'd never have seen any scratches cuz I don't even own a loupe. I'm concerned with how a coin looks on a macro level, not on a micro level.

 

An interesting side note: I bid on that purple 1864L cent back in 1986. I didn't really care for the color so I didn't bid very high!