Can you guys spare a minute?

[Gilbert-migration]

First, things look a little different since my last visit, so I apologize in advance if the wrong emoticon pops up, or something like that.

 

Here goes:

 

Every time (well say, the last 4 times) I've come over to "participate," I first had to decide if I would feel welcome. Why? Each of those 4 times, I had to read (no, not literally, but felt compelled to) how ignorant, how stupid, how much kool-aid, how boring, and on and on, the PCGS/CU forum, AND BY INFERENCE, the participants in that forum are.

 

Now I actually popped over to see how you guys, and gals, are doing, maybe glean a little education, and to let you know you haven't been forgotten over there anyway, although, I could probably conclude that it doesn't matter.

 

Ya' know, I'm disappointed at the turn of events on the forum too, but I don't see any difference in the way some of you guys, and gals (well not really any of the gals) are still "stressing" over what goes on over there. It is apparent it isn't your forum of choice, or even one you want to participate in, so why concern yourselves, and particularly, belittle (by inferrence) those of us who choose to try and offer some semblance of numismatic discourse.

 

Yes, there is discussion of significant and on point topics. Yes, it appears that the community is thriving. Yes, I suppose the forum is providing its intended service, and some unintended service too. But, the proverbial fly in the ointment:

 

I am having a very difficult time accepting how some of the very astute and respected members here continue to resort to the "hyperbole" regarding the PCGS forum, and by inference, it's participants.

 

Look, I still respect you guys for your knowledge and passion WITHIN THE FIELD, but, your "drawers" are showing when it comes to common decency to your fellow man.

 

Maybe you'll rethink the issue or maybe you'll just blow me off as one of the "stupid posters," and though I borrowed TT adjective, I by no means am limiting my disappointment to those comments.

 

In case this thread is too far off topic and gets file 13, or you don't want to drag it out, feel free to PM me with a "go to ..." or whatever comment you may want to offer. I am extremely interested in the points of view, particularly of those whom I haven't had the pleasure of communicating with since the "split."

 

Thanks for reading this far.

[Tradedollarnut]

I agree that the kool aid of a different flavor has flowed a bit freely over here of late. I've tried to take a balanced approach. I enjoy both forums but won't hesitate to state when either side of the street is a bit full of itself!

[keithdagen]

Wow, I guess I'm confused. When I look at the front page of the NGC forum, I see four threads relating to the Long Beach show and the auctions there, a couple showing off coins, one asking about Type collecting, a few about the current market environment, and one about grading service guarantees.

 

But none bashing the forums across the way.

[IrishMike]

Gilbert, I hope you don't mind if I disagree a bit. You and I and others that frequent both boards realize that people do have axes to grind, rightfully or wrongly or somewhere in between. In my year at CU there are a lot more negative posts about CU posted on their forum than here and that seems to be ok. If one thread starts here about the same problems voiced there i.e. on the CU Forum, suddenly this place is accused of being little more than an expatriate bashing forum of CU. Perhaps some are a little to thinskinned unless it is done there. Maybe its the old family thing, its ok to criticize a family member at home but not outside the home to a stranger.

 

Ironically I find a lot less destructive criticism on this coin board about anything then I find there. I enjoy both boards immensely, I guess I just disagree with your premise.

 

Complaining is human nature inside the family or outside of it.

[MarkFeld]

Keith, you are obviously free to disagree with Gilbert, me or anyone else. But, please don't pretend to be "confused" by his post. You can't be a frequent participant/poster here and not know what Gilbert was refering to.

[gmarguli]

I did a QUICK look at the first 5 pages of this coin forum. I found one thread bashing the forums across the street, which was started by a person who felt attacked over there. I believe I found 2 more threads with PCG$ in the title - both of which were legitimate threads. There are a couple of old threads that get brought back to the top every once in a while here. I've seen more threads across the street talking about "us talking about them" than I have seen actual threads here of us talking about them.

 

The Kool-Aid references are puzzling. For one thing, I interpreted Kool-Aid to mean that the people blindly followed without thought. (i.e. They purchased PCG$ coins without regard to the actual coin. They paid a premium for the plastic. Non-PCG$ coins are not in a PCG$ slab for a reason - NGC never met a counterfeit they didn't like - if it really were an MS65 it would be in a PCG$ slab - all good NGC coins have already been tried to be crossed to PCG$ [a DH comment], etc.) That's Kool-Aid. Some of the comments over there are so awful that they would be laughable if they weren't so sad and pathetic. I wonder if the people really think that way. I wonder how dealers keep themselves from laughing at the people when they say these things out loud in a store. Liking a service is not Kool-Aid. I've been accused of drinking NGC Kool-Aid by a few people. While I like the NGC product and the customer service, I still point out areas where they do things I don't like. The big difference is that one service is responsive to the needs and criticisms and the other acts like a demigod that can do no wrong. Post something here stating that "I don't like A, B, & C about NGC and I am having a problem with X, Y, & Z that I want fixed" and you will have someone from NGC contact you explaining why A, B, & C are done the way they are and maybe offer some insight into why they aren't done another way and they will also work with you to resolve X, Y, & Z. Do the same thing across the street and it falls on deaf ears. If liking this better than that is Kool-Aid drinking, then I'll inject Kool-Aid into my veins, but we better come up with a new term for blindly following.

 

Over the last few weeks the traffic over here has picked up greatly. Lots of people from across the street are popping up over here. Why? I'm sure that like you, they are getting tired of the noise over there and are looking for content. Aren't the other forums a little boring? You've got to admit that it is the same stuff over and over and most of it is unproductive stuff.

 

No one is intentionally made to feel unwelcome over here. However, if all you want to talk about is modern coins, then you aren't going to get a warm reception. If you want to point out eBay auctions where the seller is hyping an ACG coin, then you aren't going to get a warm reception. If you want to post submission results that show you made 4 PR69DCAM 2003 State Quarters and one that quizzically only went PR68DCAM - all without pictures or insight into the coins, then you aren't going to get a warm reception. It's nothing personal, but that stuff doesn't have a big following over here. There is a place for this stuff and it is across the street. It thrives on this stuff.

 

This place has the feel of the OLD PCG$ forums. Lots of talk about coins and little noise, mixed with a little good natured fun among members that kind of know each other. Maybe we are a little over protective of this atmosphere, but it is only because we have seen what can happen if you let things run wild. Can you honestly say the PCG$ forums are better today than they were 6 months ago or 12 months ago?

 

I've said this many times. Good there and pull up threads from 6 months or a year back. Look at the topics. Look at the names of the posters. Many of those posters will be people you remember as being good posters. Now look at the current threads. Is it the same quality of the topics? Are those good posters still there? Have other good posters replaced them? Many good posters left and the few that remain have been drowned out. Saying that isn't belittling those people, it is just pointing it out. That forum now thrives in total posts and very few topics thanks to these posters. The "good" posters that stay over there aren't stupid. However, it is only fair to wonder why some of them do stay. Several of the "good" posters get attacked on a regular basis, yet stay. Lots of us are wondering why they would stay there to get attacked and not participate over here. However, it's their choice.

 

[keithdagen]

Keith, you are obviously free to disagree with Gilbert, me or anyone else. But, please don't pretend to be "confused" by his post. You can't be a frequent participant/poster here and not know what Gilbert was refering to.

 

Mark,

 

I am genuinely confused. I post over here as much or more than any other coin poster, with few guys having more posts.

 

So yes, I have seen this happen in the past, but I don't see it as being a current issue. There were a couple of threads in the last few weeks that have been dug up repeatedly, but there have literally been hundreds of other posts that have zero to do with issues on the "other side." The two biggest ones (both by Truthteller) were started on 4/22 and 5/17. At one time, a majority of posts were critical of PCGS or their boards, but it is not currently an issue, and dragging it up as a problem doesn't make sense.

[coinman1794]

...yeah, what Greg said !

[TomB]

Hi Gilbert! I'm glad you posted and very glad you started a thread and shared what you were thinking.

 

As for myself, I've never belittled anyone for the choice of board they choose to read and/or post in. Don't worry, I didn't think your post was directed toward me, at least I hope it wasn't, I just wanted to make clear my actions. There's great information on both boards and there is also "stuff", for lack of a better term, that I do not like about each of the boards. You mention how some people will declare or infer that contributors to the PCGS boards are somehow lacking, I have noticed this on occassion also. I neither embrace it nor do I like to read it. However, if someone voices that opinion then I believe they are free to voice it. I guess I am not like most people in that I care little what others think of me but do care very much about what my actions speak of me. There is a subtle yet profound difference there.

 

I have my own reasons for posting at NGC and not at PCGS. They are not important enough to write on the boards. They are mine. I am happy with my choice, even though it means that I have less discourse with members of the PCGS boards like yourself, Tonelover, GSAGUY and some other folks. It is the choice I made. I realize I also have likely not answered any of your questions with my rambling, but, I think the answers that you are asking about are more likely to be found within you in how you interpret posts than to be found within others' words in their explanations. However this post reads or plays out, let me state that I am very happy that you posted this thread and think it an excellent topic.

[Tradedollarnut]

It's actually a trick! There's a secret society on the CU chatroom that monitors the NGC board. Whenever there are not derogatory threads on the front page, they take turns coming over and starting a similar thread that always turns into a bashing party so they can sit back and be satisfied that it's one of the topics over here - something of a self fulfilling prophesy!

[MarkFeld]

Keith, if you say you truly were/are confused, then I will take you at your word and apologize for my comment. I hereby, officially apologize. And, I mean that, sincerely.

 

I have, however, felt the same way as Gilbert, in large part, from the long thread that kept being brought back to the top. I will attempt to put it out of my mind and focus on the many other good threads, here and on the other forum.

[keithdagen]

Mark,

 

Apology accepted. I recognize that those two particular threads are inflammatory, but I don't think that they represent the general feeling of the board anymore. We've had too many solid, non-biased, threads since that relate to coins without mixing politics in too.

[IrishMike]

It's actually a trick! There's a secret society on the CU chatroom that monitors the NGC board. Whenever there are not derogatory threads on the front page, they take turns coming over and starting a similar thread that always turns into a bashing party so they can sit back and be satisfied that it's one of the topics over here - something of a self fulfilling prophesy!

 

Thanks for the post made me smile as I was thinking the same thing.

[bigd5]

I do both sides of the street. The other board has been around longer, so you get some different content than what you get over here.

I like both boards. It offers an interesting variety of opinions.

I do prefer this board a bit more, plus I can load pic's here, which I can't do on the pcgs site, for some reason.

[braddick]

Each board has a particular flavor. When I crave a BigMac with super sized fries and and a Diet Coke, I cross the street.

 

It's only unhealthy if that is all you take in for nourishment.

[ccr-migration]

I recognize that those two particular threads are inflammatory, but I don't think that they represent the general feeling of the board anymore. We've had too many solid, non-biased, threads since that relate to coins without mixing politics in too.

 

That`s one of the reasons why I signed on over here. To see and get a feel about how things and attitudes really are over here. As I pointed out to someone, The two forums here and there have there own personalities as a group. They clash every once in awhile but, it`s still somewhat the same as it was 6 months ago. I always had the perception that the two forums where friendly and where around for a common cause. That being about the coin hobby. I was surprised and taken aback with a thread over here last week. I didn`t think that sentiment still lurked around. If anyone wants to take on that cause is their concern. I`ll read and listen to what is being said but, it isn`t the only reason why I signed on at either forum. It`s ultimately not my cause to take up. I still think it stinks that Dave gave Greg and others the boot but, signing up over here gives me the opportunity at least to pick your guys and gals heads if and when I need it.

[jtryka]

Gilbert,

 

Let me first apologize if any of my posts made you feel unwelcome or inferior. I made my move from the CU boards to this one at the end of last year, so I suppose that makes me one of the early defectors, so let me share some of my insights.

 

When I used to post on the CU boards, I found there were a few sacred cows that no one dared question, for fear of the flame wars that would develop (more than a few I participated in). One was modern coins and their pricing, and another big one was the inherant superiority of PCGS. I can still recall a thread where WSM and I got into this debate on double eagles, and I actually pointed out that more NGC double eagles were priced higher than their PCGS counterparts on the Heritage inventory than their PCGS counterparts, yet he wouldn't hear of it (WSM was a special case though). Finally, it got to a point where the direction and tenor of posts over there was actually inhibiting my enjoyment of the hobby. EVP encouraged me to take a break, but then someone called me a "troll" and that was the final straw. I left and haven't looked back.

 

When I arrived here and started posting more frequently I was at first more bitter about the happenings across the street. But as time wore on, I find that I hardly even think about them anymore. I rarely post about the CU boards, and seldom reply to threads that do. I think as time moves on, some of the newer refugees will find the same situation, and their focus will turn back to coins, and away from politics. Over here, there are no true sacred cows. Sure, it's not popular to post about many of the topics that Greg mentioned in his post, but you are more likely to be ignored than ostricized if you do. The closest thing to a sacred cow over here is "drinking the Kool-Aid" which applies to way more than PCGS. Whether it's NGC, or PCGS, or dealers, or anything else where you blindly follow without a logical reason, someone is likely to call you on it here. That is a good thing in my view.

 

The bottom line is, do what makes you most happy. If you don't like this forum, post on another (there are more than two now). But by all means, don't let what others might think of you dissuade you from pursuing what you enjoy. Some here may not respect the folks on the CU forums, but there are many more people in the outside world that think all of us coin collectors are nuts. The only real need to care is if deep in your heart you think that the people being critical are right, and if that's the case, then you need to think about it and figure that one out for yourself.

[classicalman-migration]

For my quarter's worth (yeah, the old adage two cents worth is out...inflation don't you know?) I agree with Gilbert and Mark Feld. I have seen some of the same thing, but again as Tom and others pointed out, it's just opinions, I come here to pick brains of collectors and dealers, same as over at CU, as well as show off any cool coin or take in the wonderful coins that board members have to show!! One other thought here, and that is I have seen some of the same things within the shooting/gun collecting community. A bit of backbiting and "ours is best, they are fluff" type thing. We all share a common love of coinage, regardless of modern, classic, circs, MS, toned, white, etc.....THAT is what we have in common and everything else is OT and does nothing to further our learning within the hobby. To quote Thomas Paine "If we do not hang together, we shall surely hang separately" Having quips with friends is fine, but knowledge is power, even if it comes from a newbie. We all have something to learn, and something to teach.

 

JMHO

[BushMan]

However, if all you want to talk about is modern coins, then you aren't going to get a warm reception. If you want to point out eBay auctions where the seller is hyping an ACG coin, then you aren't going to get a warm reception. If you want to post submission results that show you made 4 PR69DCAM 2003 State Quarters and one that quizzically only went PR68DCAM - all without pictures or insight into the coins, then you aren't going to get a warm reception. It's nothing personal, but that stuff doesn't have a big following over here. There is a place for this stuff and it is across the street. It thrives on this stuff.

 

 

Please don't forget the BooBopABubblegum. That, too, is better served across the street. Right along with the jelly donuts.

[Gilbert-migration]

Let me first thank you for your responses, particularly those that addressed ME. Just a couple of points:

 

I didn't say anything about the first four pages or the number of anti-PCGS posts. I said the last four times I logged in there was some insult or the other.

 

Notice my registration date. I'm not quite a newbie, I have nothing against this forum and I guess I should have just come right out an said:

 

Greg, Truthteller, dakra (and by jove I can't see anything else but this message box at the time) I respected you guys; appreciated the knowledge AND COMRADERIE you guys offered. The generalizations you sometimes make, without regard to who you offend, has just put me off. Sorry. I just don't believe in dumpin' on people who have done nothing to me personally, and if that makes me "thin-skinned" well, that's your opinion.

 

In any event, I said what I needed to say and you'll take it for what it means to you. Thanks for for takin' the time.

[classicalman-migration]

In any event, I said what I needed to say and you'll take it for what it means to you. Thanks for for takin' the time.

 

Gilbert, that's what makes a forum, opinions and ideas and shared info. If you didn't say it someone else was thinking it. Now it's been brought out, hashed about, and dealt with. Time to share your insights on your hobby/passion.

 

Look forward to more of your posts.

[Leothelion]

Let me first thank you for your responses, particularly those that addressed ME. Just a couple of points:

 

I didn't say anything about the first four pages or the number of anti-PCGS posts. I said the last four times I logged in there was some insult or the other.

 

Notice my registration date. I'm not quite a newbie, I have nothing against this forum and I guess I should have just come right out an said:

 

Greg, Truthteller, dakra (and by jove I can't see anything else but this message box at the time) I respected you guys; appreciated the knowledge AND COMRADERIE you guys offered. The generalizations you sometimes make, without regard to who you offend, has just put me off. Sorry. I just don't believe in dumpin' on people who have done nothing to me personally, and if that makes me "thin-skinned" well, that's your opinion.

 

In any event, I said what I needed to say and you'll take it for what it means to you. Thanks for for takin' the time.

 

Hi Gilbert

Welcome and farewell to and from the forums. First, you should post more often to find out what the beef's about that turns you off so you can give a more intellectual opinion on your observations from just reading to yourself. If someone says something that offends another person, either the statement was misinterpreted or the guy actually meant it. We're not all angels here but when mistakes are made or misunderstandings have taken place, it usually gets worked out intellectually (there's that would again) and apologies are made and things move on. When I post, I try very hard not to offend someone and I don't give out advice about something I don't know about. I can share my experiences or tell about a simular situation and hopefully it will relate to the topic and possibly help someone. But all I know are Jefferson nickels, at least I like to think so. On topics about other coins, someone else can have the floor. Oh sure, I'll stick my nose into a thread and try to be humorous and I usually get ignored anyway but hopefully I'll have helped to enlighten a situation and the thread can move into a more favorable outcome even though I or a few others that post know that we are all needed here to make these forums succussful and enjoyable for everyone.

 

Regards, Leo

[LucyBop]

Bushman, why do you have to come out and act like that? Do you feel better now? Can you now look your family in the eye and declare your proud of yourself? I don't care what you like about me and I'll tell you do something about it. Make me stop, make me go away... Your just a bully who is becoming a negative troll on these boards... Your real tough hiding behind your computer screen aren't you?

 

 

[davefperry]

One reason I frequent this board more often is that I found myself getting defensive when I logged on the other and it became less fun and informative. When that happened it seemed I was doing less about coin discussion and more about defending an opinion. I don't mind a difference in opinion but dislike the personal attacks.

No beef here with people on either board but if someone on this board gets out of control they get sanctioned because this forum is monitored by the company that owns it. So like a lot of folks I visit more than one forum but post more on others.

Try not to take anything personally over the net even when it's not easy. Life is too short.

[sanmary]

Personally, I started out on the other forum about a year ago. I've been collecting for many years but only during the last year or so have I found my way to the forums. My intentions are to learn from other knowledgable collectors and meet some quality people as well. One day I decided to get involved in a swap. I thought this might be cool. Well I was told across the street that since I hadn't posted enough that I couldn't play their reindeer games. That was when I first smelled the coffee. I've been in the restaurant business for about 17 years and if I treated my customers the way that they do I wouldn't be able to afford a roll of circulated wheaties let alone some of the coins that I own. I don't choose to bash anyone else, however my limited time is spent here.

[msmhappy]

 

WOW!!!!!!!!

 

Sorry poeple, but, well,,, All I want to do is collect coins!!!

 

When I signed up for this forum, I was hopeing for lots of info about OUR SHARED FIELD OF NUMISMATICS, the love and joy of collecting coins!!!!

 

But this is a bit much for me!!

 

mike

 

---------------------

 

dont forget! collect proof sets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dakra]

Is it just me or has there been an influx of people from PCGS posting here in recent times to complain?

 

-Dave

 

 

 

[msmhappy]

Is it just me or has there been an influx of people from PCGS posting here in recent times to complain?

 

-Dave

 

 

 

Your correct Dave! It's from someone posting negative things about PCGS, and inreturn, well,, there here!!!

 

mike

 

---------------------------

 

dont forget! collect proof sets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[true_grade]

Been to "their" site and a few others; this one has the info and courtesy to satisfy my needs so I registered and have been quite content.

 

As for the occasional jab at someplace/someone………..if the shoe fits………if it doesn't then just ignore it and move on with you life.

 

You seem to think it is a competition between our board and “your” board. Sorry, IMO….that is why you are trying to find fault with this one and stir up a conflict.

 

Again, sorry, I’m about collecting coins and sharing that with someone else while hopefully garnering some schooling in my “hobby”.

 

Hope you stick around and partake with us in this wonderful pastime and maybe pass along some information about this and that. If that is the case then WELCOME ….if not and you just want to talk about other boards and problems….then your posts will just become fodder to skip over and ignore .

 

[braddick]

Is it just me or has there been an influx of people from PCGS posting here in recent times to complain?

 

-Dave

 

 

 

Dave, complaints or simple observations (in response to this Thread's "complaint" -or, observation)?