Mint error ! 1 1

[Tarekss1]

The boarders of this coin are not identical they appear to be thicker at certain areas and thinner elsewhere. Could that be a mint error?

[Mike Meenderink]

Hello and welcome to the forum. To answer your question simply, no. During the coin minting process, the coin mill (press) runs at extremely high speeds (modern mills are crazy). Slight production variations of this sort do commonly occur. The mints would not consider this a true error but more of a quality control issue to be monitored and adjusted as condition persists. The more pronounced manufacturing errors are quite different and consist of several types. The coin is a slightly misaligned die that minted many, many coins just like yours. A broad strike coin would be more pronounced to one side and have evidence of a "glancing" strike or deformation of the rim from collar misalignment or absence. The coin is a normal average circulation coin. Cheers! 

[Tarekss1]

Well I know that rotated dies would only be considered an error by NGS if the rotation is more than 15 degrees. Is there a measurment criteria for the coin being off center to be considered as an error ?  

[Mike Meenderink]

On 10/21/2024 at 7:31 AM, Tarekss1 said:

Well I know that rotated dies would only be considered an error by NGS if the rotation is more than 15 degrees. Is there a measurment criteria for the coin being off center to be considered as an error ?  

When any element of the coin is either glaringly mis produced or details actually missing from the coin from the mint it is an error. However, the collectability of said errors are held by many as "The bigger the error the more its worth" Just because a coin has an error does not mean anyone may care. Cheers.

Edited October 21 by Mike Meenderink

[Tarekss1]

Well the beauty about errors in my opinion is that the coin is different from the thousands or in this particular instance the millions of other boring coins that were minted. The question of whether someone else cares or not is irrelevant. To be honest, even I personally don't care if anyone else cares or not 😀

Have a great day,

Tarek S elkaddah

[J P M]

On 10/21/2024 at 10:45 AM, Tarekss1 said:

Well the beauty about errors in my opinion is that the coin is different from the thousands or in this particular instance the millions of other boring coins that were minted. The question of whether someone else cares or not is irrelevant. To be honest, even I personally don't care if anyone else cares or not 😀

Have a great day,

Tarek S elkaddah

There ya go that's the spirit. That way you never have to ask questions, and you are always right.

Edited October 21 by J P M

[powermad5000]

Hello and welcome!

For a coin to have an error for misaligned die, it must be misaligned enough for part or some of the design to be missing from the coin.

For a coin to have an error for rotated dies, you are correct that it must be a minimum of 15 degrees of rotation. That said, many early US cents in particular had numerous rotated dies and they are considered common in early US cents. It is not until dies are rotated 180 degrees which produces a condition called Medallic Alignment which is considered highly desirable by collectors as when the coin is flipped from left to right, the image on the other side is face up versus normal coin alignment which is when the coin is flipped top to bottom.

For a coin to have an error for off center strike, the minimum amount it needs to be off center is 5% to get the designation.

Hope this helps!

[Tarekss1]

Well, obviously if an error is so common like early US cents that is not something special. But I would not say Egyptian coins are prone to either rotated dies or mis-aligned dies. I rarely see graded Egyptian coins with either error designations. Either way, I don't think the US cent example is even relevant for US coin buyers. Attached is a photo of a morgan dollar graded xf 40 with a rotated dies error designation and got sold ages ago  for almost 200 dollars. Had this coin been just xf and had no mint errors, it would have probably been sold for  no more than 50 usd, and the rotation is only 90 degrees not even 180.

I also think that NGC came up with the 15 degree rule after giving it alot of thought. Can not just say, yeah it has a rotated dies error designation on the holder, but hey it is not a full 180 degree who cares ! I don't think it works that way. Here is somone who bought a morgan for 4 times its value just because of a 90 degree rotation! 

Edited October 21 by Tarekss1

[J P M]

Someone wanted that coin and paid for the privilege. On a rare occasion you can find them in the wild. 

[Tarekss1]

Seems like these people migrated to the city as apparently you can find them everywhere! 

ps. no one would have paid  even a 20 for this one if it was not for the error and this time it is only 80 degrees!

Edited October 21 by Tarekss1

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/21/2024 at 10:00 AM, Tarekss1 said:

The boarders of this coin are not identical they appear to be thicker at certain areas and thinner elsewhere. Could that be a mint error?

As nothing can rehabilitate my image in the eyes of others, particular in regards to Mint Errors! . I will only go so far as to acknowledge that room and board is not under the purview of the director of the Mint.  

It is my understanding that charges and countercharges have been lobbed backed and forth on the matter of securing our.borders but I do not believe the matter concerned the thickness of coinage. addressed properly on any

[Tarekss1]

Well my coin was struck at the royal mint so who knows! 

As for the matter of securing the border, I guess you could always build a fence. Or at least pay for building one 😀

I guess this concludes the matter.

ps. Someone has already explained that it should be atleast 5 per cent off centre to qualify for a mint error designation. The border is not the same everywhere because it is actually off center. When they grade it and put it in a holder we will know if it is 5 per cent or less. 

Best wishes,

Tarek S. El kaddah 

Edited October 21 by Tarekss1

[powermad5000]

On 10/21/2024 at 12:30 PM, Tarekss1 said:

Well, obviously if an error is so common like early US cents that is not something special. But I would not say Egyptian coins are prone to either rotated dies or mis-aligned dies. I rarely see graded Egyptian coins with either error designations. Either way, I don't think the US cent example is even relevant for US coin buyers. Attached is a photo of a morgan dollar graded xf 40 with a rotated dies error designation and got sold ages ago  for almost 200 dollars. Had this coin been just xf and had no mint errors, it would have probably been sold for  no more than 50 usd, and the rotation is only 90 degrees not even 180.

I also think that NGC came up with the 15 degree rule after giving it alot of thought. Can not just say, yeah it has a rotated dies error designation on the holder, but hey it is not a full 180 degree who cares ! I don't think it works that way. Here is somone who bought a morgan for 4 times its value just because of a 90 degree rotation! 

You are pulling out an example of a series of coin that does NOT have many rotated die errors as an effort to try to disprove what I stated. I stated the facts to you. I currently have 4 early US cents with rotated dies out of the maybe twenty or so that are in my collection. I have literally half of the Morgan dollar series as well as many VAM's of the series. Currently the count off the top of my head is somewhere around 150 Morgan dollars and I have NOT ONE with a rotated die error. Do you see why you cannot use that as an example in your argument?

As for Egyptian coins, or other currencies, anything struck on high speed presses has the chance of having a rotated die or misaligned die. Unless the mint making them inspects every coin before it leaves its mint and melts down anything not to an exacting standard, the possibility is always there on modern presses.

I also never said a coin has to have 180 degree rotation to be worth any premium. Coins with lesser rotation are still worth some premium, but coins with 180 degree rotation are highly desired by error collectors and they WILL pay significant premiums to obtain such pieces as they are truly not common when it comes to rotational errors. NGC only established the 15 degree threshold as lesser rotations are more relatively common in mass production situations and whether you like it or not, lesser rotations under 15 degrees are considered within mint tolerance.

The US cent example is entirely relevant for US coin buyers, and believe me US coin buyers are aware of the commonality of certain errors as well as the rarity of others.

 

Edited Tuesday at 04:51 AM by powermad5000

[powermad5000]

On 10/21/2024 at 3:10 PM, Tarekss1 said:

ps. Someone has already explained that it should be atleast 5 per cent off centre to qualify for a mint error designation. The border is not the same everywhere because it is actually off center. When they grade it and put it in a holder we will know if it is 5 per cent or less. 

You cannot change the facts I presented to fit your situation. I stated 5 percent for OFF CENTER STRIKES. That is BOTH SIDES of the coin are 5% off center.

Misaligned dies are given an error designation NOT BY PERCENT but when a portion or entire portion of a detail of the coin is missing, that is half of a letter gets cut off or a letter is completely missing or a portion of the date is cutoff or missing.

I will provide examples of each.

[Tarekss1]

Well first the the attached liberty dollar is off-center and it is very obvious that none of the details are missing, none the less it has been labeled an error. So please explain?

Second I am not twisting your words that is exactly what you said "For a coin to have an error for off center strike, the minimum amount it needs to be off center is 5% to get the designation.". If you meant to say something else I guess it is not my problem. 

Thirdly, I maintain that US cents struck in large numbers with rotations is an irrelevant example even for US buyers of other coins as you can not generalise based on a coin that incidently was so common to have rotations. You said and i quote " That said, many early US cents in particular had numerous rotated dies and they are considered common in early US cents. It is not until dies are rotated 180 degrees which produces a condition called Medallic Alignment which is considered highly desirable by collectors as when the coin is flipped from left to right, the image on the other side is face up versus normal coin alignment which is when the coin is flipped top to bottom.".

You claim that its not until its a 180 rotation that it is cosidered highly desirable; may be this is true for US cents. However, we were not talking about US cents, it seemed like you were suggesting that in general a 180 degree rotation is needed for a coin to become desirable and command a premium ! And that proposition seems out of context as I saw countless examples of coins being sold at a 300 and 400 percent premium for rotations that were way less than 180 degrees (i included auction results of a couple of morgans that were sold for much higher prices despite having rotations way less than 180, you can find plenty more !) .  

Also, misalignment can happen on both sides. Does not have to be on one side. You can see the attached!

Lastly, my question had nothing to do with premiums. My question was about whether or not it gets an error designation and when does it get labeled as an error. Premiums are subjective and if you track auctions you will eventually realise that "to each his own". I honestly would not try to come up with elaborate equations for what fetches premiums and what does not, cause eventually buyers will break the rules. That's just me!  

Best regards,

Tarek S Elkaddah

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 08:19 AM by Tarekss1

[Fenntucky Mike]

My guess is that the OP's coin would not be labeled as an error due to the fact that the rim is still present and uninterrupted, albeit thinner in some areas due to the MAD. I guess we'll see when it comes back.

[Tarekss1]

The rim is still present in this one too !

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 10/22/2024 at 10:05 AM, Tarekss1 said:

The rim is still present in this one too !

It's not, at least not fully, and is more misaligned than the coin in the OP. Like I said, if the coin gets sent in we'll see. 

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

I like how this thread starts with a question "Could that be a mint error?", but the OP quickly pivots to his expertise on the subject when his claim is not corroborated.  Every responder is wrong, and the OP starts not caring what people think.  That's fine... everyone is entitled to love anyone or anything, but the OP came looking for consensus.

When people want to argue about "errors" that are not even worth talking about... The response is easy and only two words long:

Submit it!

The free education is not working, so maybe it's time to pay a little tuition.

[JoePoe23]

I just joined the chatboards and was really appalled by this thread. The way i see it is that a question was asked and the answers  provided were either incomplete or even misleading. Obviously, he double checked and found evidence to the contrary. In this case its natural and healthy to argue. 

The liberty dollar in the picture, atleast to me, seems slightly off-centre with the rim going all over the coin and none of the details are omitted as a result of the misalignment. Yet it still is graded as an error by NGC.

Having been a collector for more than two decades I can confidently say that a mint error is never a mint error unless it is labeled as an error by a reputable grading company. People do all sort of things to pass their coins as an error. Many experienced dealers paid a premium for errors that end up being faked. 

I say there is no harm in submitting a potential mint error for grading. Simply as there is no other way to find out. Best of luck.

Cheers, 

Peter

Edited Tuesday at 06:04 PM by JoePoe23

[Coinbuf]

On 10/22/2024 at 7:05 AM, Tarekss1 said:

The rim is still present in this one too !

Actually, if you look below at the area I have in the red outline of the photo you posted you can see that part of the rim on the rev is missing.   Stuff like this is highly subjective and the grading firms have been anything but consistent in the past when designating this type of error recognition.    If you decide to submit please return and let us know how it goes, my opinion is that you will not receive a mint error designation.

 

On 10/22/2024 at 11:01 AM, JoePoe23 said:

I just joined the chatboards and was really appalled by this thread. The way i see it is that a question was asked and the answers  provided were either incomplete or even misleading. Obviously, he double checked and found evidence to the contrary. In this case its natural and healthy to argue. 

The liberty dollar in the picture, atleast to me, seems slightly off-centre with the rim going all over the coin and none of the details are omitted as a result of the misalignment. Yet it still is graded as an error by NGC.

Having been a collector for more than two decades I can confidently say that a mint error is never a mint error unless it is labeled as an error by a reputable grading company. People do all sort of things to pass their coins as an error. Many experienced dealers paid a premium for errors that end up being faked. 

I say there is no harm in submitting a potential mint error for grading. Simply as there is no other way to find out. Best of luck.

Cheers, 

Peter

Don't take this the wrong way, but as you state you just got here.   Hang around for twenty years like a few of us have, read a few thousand posts like this as we have, and you might have a different viewpoint.   I agree with you that a healthy discussion is good, but @The Neophyte Numismatist is correct that most times when the op gets combative as he has here things seldom get better as the thread moves along.

Edited Tuesday at 06:37 PM by Coinbuf

[JoePoe23]

@coinbuf 

I have no stake in this obviously. And to be honest I don't think your point is entirly relevant. Your point would have been much more relevant if the coin was UNC. This coin is already graded AU.

So unless you were the one who graded it, who knows whether this led to the error designation or the AU classification. As I said earlier errors and varieties should be left to the grading companies to decide on. In my twenty years of collecting I realised that sending an error for grading is more likely to prove to be a gamble than not. I will look around for some old coins that were almost certain to get a mint error designation and later proved to be a massive disappointment. I have had some successes though so I can't complain.

 

[VKurtB]

On 10/22/2024 at 2:01 PM, JoePoe23 said:

@coinbuf 

I have no stake in this obviously. And to be honest I don't think your point is entirly relevant. Your point would have been much more relevant if the coin was UNC. This coin is already graded AU.

So unless you were the one who graded it, who knows whether this led to the error designation or the AU classification. As I said earlier errors and varieties should be left to the grading companies to decide on. In my twenty years of collecting I realised that sending an error for grading is more likely to prove to be a gamble than not. I will look around for some old coins that were almost certain to get a mint error designation and later proved to be a massive disappointment. I have had some successes though so I can't complain.

 

I have 61 years in the hobby and. have NEVER EVEN CARED to submit an error coin.

[Coinbuf]

On 10/22/2024 at 12:01 PM, JoePoe23 said:

@coinbuf 

I have no stake in this obviously. And to be honest I don't think your point is entirly relevant. Your point would have been much more relevant if the coin was UNC. This coin is already graded AU.

So unless you were the one who graded it, who knows whether this led to the error designation or the AU classification. As I said earlier errors and varieties should be left to the grading companies to decide on. In my twenty years of collecting I realised that sending an error for grading is more likely to prove to be a gamble than not. I will look around for some old coins that were almost certain to get a mint error designation and later proved to be a massive disappointment. I have had some successes though so I can't complain.

 

The grade has nothing to do with a coin being a mint error or not, especially when you consider the coin is almost uncirculated at AU58.   A mint error happens when the coin is struck, what happens to it latter is just a level of preservation and has no impact on if it is or is not an error.   The only time this could be an issue is with low circ coins as it might be difficult to decern between damage and minor errors.

[Tarekss1]

On 10/22/2024 at 9:36 PM, Coinbuf said:

Actually, if you look below at the area I have in the red outline of the photo you posted you can see that part of the rim on the rev is missing.   Stuff like this is highly subjective and the grading firms have been anything but consistent in the past when designating this type of error recognition.    If you decide to submit please return and let us know how it goes, my opinion is that you will not receive a mint error designation.

 

Don't take this the wrong way, but as you state you just got here.   Hang around for twenty years like a few of us have, read a few thousand posts like this as we have, and you might have a different viewpoint.   I agree with you that a healthy discussion is good, but @The Neophyte Numismatist is correct that most times when the op gets combative as he has here things seldom get better as the thread moves along.

Thank you coinbuf for your reply. The coin is listed on Ebay and the rim looks fine in the ebay pictures taken from a different angle. As others pointed out this is an AU coin and as per NGC's grading scale minor wear is expected on the high points of the coin. 

I would like to take this opportunity to thank all those who were nice enough to comment on my post. When I started this post I did not even know the name of the error. I had no clue of whether misalignment happens on either side or both and now at least I have some idea about these kinds of mint errors and hopefully by following your posts I will get to know more. I apologise to those who regard arguments as being offensive or combative and I wish you all the best.

Best regards,

Tarek S Elkaddah 

Edited Tuesday at 09:40 PM by Tarekss1

[Tarekss1]

On 10/22/2024 at 10:09 PM, VKurtB said:

I have 61 years in the hobby and. have NEVER EVEN CARED to submit an error coin.

Given how this thread has evolved in a matter of days I appreciate the wisdom behind your decision not to.

Cheers,

Tarek 

[Coinbuf]

On 10/22/2024 at 1:01 PM, Tarekss1 said:

Thank you coinbuf for your reply. The coin is listed on Ebay and the rim looks fine in the ebay pictures taken from a different angle. As others pointed out this is an AU coin and as per NGC's grading scale minor wear is expected on the high points of the coin. 

I would like to take this opportunity to thank all those who were nice enough to comment on my post. When I started this post I did not even know the name of the error. I had no clue of whether misalignment happens on either side or both and now at least I have some idea about these kinds of mint errors and hopefully by following your posts I will get to know more. I apologise to those who regard arguments as being offensive or combative and I wish you all the best.

Tarek S Elkaddah 

Thanks for that additional photo, it does seem that the rim is more full than in the other photo.   Which makes the decision by NGC to call it a mint error even more curious.

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

On 10/22/2024 at 5:15 PM, JoePoe23 said:

@coinbuf 

See at the end of the day all these arguments led to something more interesting. You never know what all these discussions lead to in the end. 

Best regards, 

Tarek S Elkaddah 

 

So.... @Tarekss1 and @JoePoe23 appear to be the same guy (since Joe accidentally left Tarek on his signature).  This thread is absolute comedy.  I have not been collecting 20 years like you "two".  But, I know alts when I see them... especially when you are so sloppy with knowing who is supposed to be who.

 

[Tarekss1]

What did tarek do now ? 

[JoePoe23]

On 10/23/2024 at 12:42 AM, Tarekss1 said:

What did tarek do now ? 

Nothing I copied your post and pasted it then realised I wanted to quote coinbuf so I thought I deleted it but apparently deleted all but the signature. My bad this time.