I paid something like quadruple retail for this common example, but have wanted one for awhile 1 1

[EarlyUS.com]

See what you think.

[Just Bob]

I am vaguely familiar with the man and the story surrounding him, but that's the first time  I've seen one of his holders. Where did you run across this?

[Henri Charriere]

🐓  Why not give this one a shot, Quintus?  I am tired of all this lurking around...

Q.A.:  I see a few things right off the bat.  [We'll let the professionals weigh in when they arrive.]

1.  Old slab from an earlier era or forerunner of TPGSs.  Grade? Difficult to assess. Is the commotion on the holder or on the coin?

2.  Price:  There is a price on it but silver spot is right about that right now.  The question then is what did you pay, and when did you pay it?

 

[VKurtB]

Absolutely HORRIBLE coin. More scratches than I can count. 

[EarlyUS.com]

Here's a link to an article that briefly describes the seedy underworld of certain self-slabbers:

https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdnc/pr/federal-judge-sentences-coin-and-precious-metals-dealer-and-his-company-defrauding-over.  You can extend research from there if you'd like.

I only managed to pick up two of the slabs and the grades assigned are very reasonable.

[VKurtB]

On 8/15/2024 at 10:32 AM, EarlyUS.com said:

Here's a link to an article that briefly describes the seedy underworld of certain self-slabbers:

https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdnc/pr/federal-judge-sentences-coin-and-precious-metals-dealer-and-his-company-defrauding-over.  You can extend research from there if you'd like.

I only managed to pick up two of the slabs and the grades assigned are very reasonable.

My stockbroker is in Newport Beach.

[Coinbuf]

Unless there is a very rare variety on this coin I would not pay quadruple retail for the Hannes/Tulving slab, they are not commonly seen but they do show up now and then.   Having said that, and without looking at retail for this coin, I would guess that the purchase price was not that high.   Ultimately as long as you are happy with the purchase that is what matters.

Edited August 15 by Coinbuf

[powermad5000]

Forgive me if I come off as a little raw in my response to this as it is not my normal tone. You paid quadruple for PLASTIC, not a coin!

I don't care what old type holder yada yada yada it is, I pay for coins, not plastic. I refuse to participate in the nonsense of collectible holders which are nothing more than pieces of plastic.

I also don't think the grade on this slab is accurate. Plastic scratches or not, I would say this would barely make PF 62.

[Henri Charriere]

To be fair about it, there are a few saving graces...

• Once a Proof, always a Proof.

•  90% silver.

•  A holder (and coin) linked with scandalous notoriety. Here, in hand, is the EVIDENCE of the commission of a crime.

•  Sentence... may seem below applicable Guidelines, but as I have noted on prior occasions, there are many objectives to be considered in sentencing.  If restitution had made a significant number of victims "whole" again, the sentence was par for the course. I personally have a strong distaste for individuals who engage in this type of activity.

•  Last, but not least, heavy-duty staples the likes of which I have never seen used on flips of any kind. Interesting.

Postscript:  I demand to know what you paid for this, and when, and do so politely.  

Edited August 16 by Henri Charriere
Correct misspelling

[Mike Meenderink]

On 8/15/2024 at 1:37 PM, powermad5000 said:

Forgive me if I come off as a little raw in my response to this as it is not my normal tone. You paid quadruple for PLASTIC, not a coin!

I don't care what old type holder yada yada yada it is, I pay for coins, not plastic. I refuse to participate in the nonsense of collectible holders which are nothing more than pieces of plastic.

I also don't think the grade on this slab is accurate. Plastic scratches or not, I would say this would barely make PF 62.

I agree 100% this is coin collecting not plastic holder collecting. It boggles my mind why anyone would want these expired slabbed coins that do not carry ANY TPG guarantee if over 10 years old. If the coin inside is particularly nice that's a candidate for crack out and re holder and re grade but just to buy any coin just for the old holder is just for silly guys.

[powermad5000]

On 8/17/2024 at 11:31 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

If the coin inside is particularly nice that's a candidate for crack out

I have done this several times over the years because there was a nice coin residing in a basement slab, but I wouldn't post the results until after the crack out and grade from NGC in the new slab.

[gmarguli]

On 8/15/2024 at 8:32 AM, EarlyUS.com said:

I only managed to pick up two of the slabs and the grades assigned are very reasonable.

Very reasonable after 30 years of inflated grading.

Probably 20+ years ago I bought a collection that had probably 50 of these holders in it. I cut every coin out and submitted to PCGS I don't think more than 1 or 2 graded the same at that time. Most graded 1-2 points lower.

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/19/2024 at 9:37 PM, gmarguli said:

Very reasonable after 30 years of inflated grading.

Probably 20+ years ago I bought a collection that had probably 50 of these holders in it. I cut every coin out and submitted to PCGS I don't think more than 1 or 2 graded the same at that time. Most graded 1-2 points lower.

《 Don't know how long you've been here.  Welcome back! 》

[Just Bob]

On 8/15/2024 at 2:37 PM, powermad5000 said:

Forgive me if I come off as a little raw in my response to this as it is not my normal tone. You paid quadruple for PLASTIC, not a coin!

I don't care what old type holder yada yada yada it is, I pay for coins, not plastic. I refuse to participate in the nonsense of collectible holders which are nothing more than pieces of plastic.

 

What difference does it make what he paid or what he purchased? It’s his collection. If he or anyone wants to collect different types of holders, slabs, or photo certificates, why is that not a valid collectible? Just because it isn’t your cup of tea doesn’t make it wrong to collect. This isn’t just some anonymous basement slabber’s over graded junk, by the way. This person/company was known to the numismatic community, and the crime he committed was talked about in numismatic circles. The holders can be considered part of numismatic history, just like an old B.Max Mehl buy sheet or an old auction catalog. 

On 8/17/2024 at 10:31 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

I agree 100% this is coin collecting not plastic holder collecting. It boggles my mind why anyone would want these expired slabbed coins that do not carry ANY TPG guarantee if over 10 years old. If the coin inside is particularly nice that's a candidate for crack out and re holder and re grade but just to buy any coin just for the old holder is just for silly guys.

I definitely don’t get this. A person wanting a piece of history is “silly?” I have a typed manuscript written by David Lange that has notes hand written by Walter Breen. Was I silly for wanting to add this to my collection? I don’t understand this idea that someone’s collection has to conform to a certain idea or style to be valid or accepted. If I want to add old punch cards and coupon books from the early 20th century to my token collection, that is strictly my business and no one else’s. The same concept applies here, with this holder.

By the way, didn’t you recently post a Morgan Dollar that was from a particular hoard that you had bought because it was a piece of history? Was buying that coin any different from what James did?
 

On 8/15/2024 at 11:11 AM, Coinbuf said:

Ultimately as long as you are happy with the purchase that is what matters.

Bingo! It’s his coin, his plastic, and his money. And it’s his business whether or not he wants to purchase it, not anyone else’s

 

One other thing: I know you guys are not familiar with who James is. He is not some newbie who just started collecting. He is a well-regarded collector, dealer, no-too-shabby coin photographer, auction director and cataloguer. He has more posts on this forum than I do, but apparently lost his old account when the software was changed several years ago.

[Coinbuf]

On 8/19/2024 at 8:38 PM, Just Bob said:

What difference does it make what he paid or what he purchased? It’s his collection. If he or anyone wants to collect different types of holders, slabs, or photo certificates, why is that not a valid collectible? Just because it isn’t your cup of tea doesn’t make it wrong to collect. This isn’t just some anonymous basement slabber’s over graded junk, by the way. This person/company was known to the numismatic community, and the crime he committed was talked about in numismatic circles. The holders can be considered part of numismatic history, just like an old B.Max Mehl buy sheet or an old auction catalog. 

I definitely don’t get this. A person wanting a piece of history is “silly?” I have a typed manuscript written by David Lange that has notes hand written by Walter Breen. Was I silly for wanting to add this to my collection? I don’t understand this idea that someone’s collection has to conform to a certain idea or style to be valid or accepted. If I want to add old punch cards and coupon books from the early 20th century to my token collection, that is strictly my business and no one else’s. The same concept applies here, with this holder.

By the way, didn’t you recently post a Morgan Dollar that was from a particular hoard that you had bought because it was a piece of history? Was buying that coin any different from what James did?
 

Bingo! It’s his coin, his plastic, and his money. And it’s his business whether or not he wants to purchase it, not anyone else’s

 

One other thing: I know you guys are not familiar with who James is. He is not some newbie who just started collecting. He is a well-regarded collector, dealer, no-too-shabby coin photographer, auction director and cataloguer. He has more posts on this forum than I do, but apparently lost his old account when the software was changed several years ago.

Actually, I know exactly who James is, and you may not be aware that I collect old holders myself.   My custom set of old holders has 157 old and obsolete TPG holders, just this past year I acquired my first Blanchard holder.    I too would like to add a Hannes/Tulving slab to my holder set when I find one at a price I'm comfortable paying.

[powermad5000]

On 8/19/2024 at 10:38 PM, Just Bob said:

What difference does it make what he paid or what he purchased? It’s his collection. If he or anyone wants to collect different types of holders, slabs, or photo certificates, why is that not a valid collectible? Just because it isn’t your cup of tea doesn’t make it wrong to collect. This isn’t just some anonymous basement slabber’s over graded junk, by the way. This person/company was known to the numismatic community, and the crime he committed was talked about in numismatic circles. The holders can be considered part of numismatic history, just like an old B.Max Mehl buy sheet or an old auction catalog

Reread the title of the thread. I thought he was talking about the coin not the holder. Maybe the OP should have been more specific that he wanted the holder for awhile. I took it as he wanted the coin, not the holder.

I now stand crucified.

[Just Bob]

On 8/19/2024 at 9:52 PM, Coinbuf said:

Actually, I know exactly who James is, and you may not be aware that I collect old holders myself.   My custom set of old holders has 157 old and obsolete TPG holders, just this past year I acquired my first Blanchard holder.    I too would like to add a Hannes/Tulving slab to my holder set when I find one at a price I'm comfortable paying.

Yeah, I figured you knew James. You have been here longer than I have.

[Just Bob]

On 8/19/2024 at 11:43 PM, powermad5000 said:

Reread the title of the thread. I thought he was talking about the coin not the holder. Maybe the OP should have been more specific that he wanted the holder for awhile. I took it as he wanted the coin, not the holder.

I now stand crucified.

Nah, not crucified. We’re just stating our opinions here.

[VKurtB]

On 8/20/2024 at 12:53 AM, Just Bob said:

Nah, not crucified. We’re just stating our opinions here.

I don’t “get” holder collecting, unsurprising given my normal disdain for most holdered coins generally, but to each his own, I suppose. In the last two years, I have UNHOLDERED slightly more coins than I’ve had put INTO holders. Something about the sound of PCGS holders clacking together really makes my skin crawl.

Edited August 21 by VKurtB

[J P M]

On 8/15/2024 at 9:57 AM, EarlyUS.com said:

See what you think.

 I would not have paid that amount. The coin in the holder does not look like a 64 to me it looks way to scratched.

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

Interesting slab, and probably worth a premium.  How much premium, I don't know.  I am not a slab collector, but this one certainly has a history.  I wonder how many people ordered these slabs from him and never got them? 

Some background on Hannes (Coin Ponzi Scheme) Tulving:

"...According to the filed court documents and statements made in court, Hannes Tulving was the sole owner, shareholder and president of The Tulving Company, Inc. (Tulving Co.), a California-based business that sold coins, bullion, and other precious metals over the Internet.  Court records show that from about August 2013 to January 2014, Tulving and his company executed a scheme to defraud customers nationwide by inducing them to place orders for coins and other merchandise knowing those orders could not be fulfilled.  Court records show that the customers paid for the merchandise expecting their orders to be delivered within a certain time frame as advertised on the company’s website.

Court documents show that Tulving and his company accepted the customers’ payments but failed to deliver some of the merchandise.  Instead, they diverted the customers’ payments to fulfill other customers’ orders, to pay company debts and to return the money to previous customers who did not receive their merchandise.  According to court documents filed in the case, the defendants defrauded more than 380 victims nationwide of over $15 million.  Hannes Tulving and the Tulving Co. each pleaded guilty to one count of wire fraud in August 2015..."

 

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/19/2024 at 11:52 PM, Coinbuf said:

Actually, I know exactly who James is, and you may not be aware that I collect old holders myself.   My custom set of old holders has 157 old and obsolete TPG holders, just this past year I acquired my first Blanchard holder.    I too would like to add a Hannes/Tulving slab to my holder set when I find one at a price I'm comfortable paying.

Correct me if I am wrong, readers, but I do not recall a single voice raised in objection or sharp criticism for the late David W. Lange's penchant for collecting old coin albums.  I recall he was missing a particularly scarce one which understandably would not appeal to 1960's era collectors but it did not stop me from secretly hoping he would snag one, complete the collection, and perhaps be eligible for a performance of Just Bob's dancing emoji

As regarding Coinbuf's interest in the various generations of holders, members may not fully understand his interest but I do and suspect those members who have had questions about their own old holders appreciated his input.

Lastly, if "James" is @James_OldeTowne I owe him a debt of gratitude for addressing a subject totally unknown to me but should be of paramount importance to all coin collectors and that is the consequential difference between buying sight-seen vs. sight-unseen.  It turns out despite the fact I never met or soke to any seller or physically examined their wares, it was their policy, or lack thereof, that determined whether I had a great deal more consumer protection than I had been aware of.  Thanks.

(Posted at the discretion of Moderation.)

[ldhair]

Hi James. Cool old slab with lots of history behind it. I don't see many of these anymore. Wish I had saved my collection of old holders. I had a lot of fun collecting them. 

[rrantique]

Here is a early ANACS

Now resides in my Dansco

 

Edited August 28 by rrantique