US Collectors in 1965 1 1

[3sidedCoin]

As I spend more time trying to bring order to my coin chaos collection, I found the following letter in an envelope and it made me pause and ponder for a moment:

 

This letter predates me by only a few years and it got me thinking about how I might have reacted, as a collector of coins, to the last sentence in the first paragraph. 

I am somewhat aware of the economic drivers at the time regarding silver and its hoarding, resulting in the 1965 Coinage Act. But how did collectors of the day react?

Generally speaking, did collectors shun the new clad coins in disgust? Or did they happily buy loads of the 3 new coin types? 

I am interested to hear any personal anecdotes or other thoughts you may have about this.

 

Edited July 24 by 3sidedCoin
tyop

[Coinbuf]

I was just out of diapers myself when that card was printed, but from what I have read and heard from other collectors clad coinage was generally disliked then as now.

Edited July 24 by Coinbuf

[J P M]

On 7/24/2024 at 7:22 PM, 3sidedCoin said:

I am somewhat aware of the economic drivers at the time regarding silver and its hoarding, resulting in the 1965 Coinage Act. But how did collectors of the day react?

Not many liked the new look and it kind of made people hoard silver even more.

[RWB]

There was general disgust with the Mint for lousy quality and an inflated price. Proof sets were wanted not these crappy Special Mint Sets.

[Sandon]

    Increases in the price of silver that led to the switch to clad coinage and other factors, such as a growing economy, resulted in a coin shortage during the mid 1960s. Collectors and speculators who hoarded coins were blamed for the shortage, mostly unfairly. The U.S. Mint stopped issuing both proof and regular uncirculated coin sets from 1965 to 1967 and instead issued only special mint sets, as well as not using mintmarks on coins during those years. There was talk of the mint not making any more collectors' issues of coins at all, and I have read that a U.S. Senator actually proposed making coin collecting illegal!

   The card you posted, which accompanied 1965 special mint sets, is a souvenir of that era. The reference to "such new issues as may be offered for sale" hinted that there might not be any more collectors' issues of coins. (Now, there are perhaps too many, but the prices being charged for them make collecting most of them impractical for many collectors.)

[rrantique]

 I was 15 at the time more interested in girls than coins

[Henri Charriere]

I saw the writing on the wall and promptly skedaddled.  One look is all it took.

Special mention goes to @cladking for enlightening me on the matter of clads and applauding them as an innovation which had simply gone thru birth pangs. He explained the greasy feel and indistinct look to my complete satisfaction.  Looking back, I had to admit he was right.  They improved over the years.

Contrary to the official notice dispatched to collectors from the Mint, I also believe our Grandmaster, @RWBmade the right call on SMS coins -- buttressed  by the fact he never flinched in the face of over the top, personal criticism.

 

Edited July 25 by Henri Charriere
Re-Write!

[3sidedCoin]

I had never before considered the impact that the clad switcharoo had on the aesthetics of pocket change. Not coins pristine in collections, but rather working coins serving their role of greasing the wheels of commerce. I suppose that in earlier years when silver was in easy circulation, when one pulled some change out of their pocket to buy something, their eyes were treated to random reflections of lustruous silver on a coin or two. 

Once clad displaced silver in circulation, I suspect the visual experience of transacting with coins was lessened in some hard-for-me-to-exactly-articulate way.

[GoldFinger1969]

I wish somebody had given me a Double Eagle or a small denomination gold coin when I was collecting. 

Might have spurred me on to investigate them much sooner ! 

 

[J P M]

On 7/25/2024 at 1:55 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I wish somebody had given me a Double Eagle or a small denomination gold coin when I was collecting. 

Might have spurred me on to investigate them much sooner ! 

 

I used to get Morgans as gifts not knowing that someday they would be collectable although most were well circulated, so I spent them. When I was a kid in the early 60s people spent them just like real money    

[MorganMan]

I was 10 years old in 65. I started collecting at 8 years old. I had 50 dollars to collect with. My mom would take me to the bank and I would get rolls of pennies, nickels, dimes, quarters and halves.. All coins back then were 90% silver( except nickels and pennies). I would go through them, reroll them and go exchange them for more.

I remember getting rolls of halves and probably 1/4 of them would be standing liberty halves. I could also get a roll of 20 silver dollars for 20 dollars. Probably half of them would be Morgans.

I remember the adults were pissed off about the clad stuff, and everyone was hoarding the silver coins after the  65 theft. The government basically stole from the citizens, replacing their silver with trinkets, that we still have today. As an example of the theft, if I had purchased 20 silver dollars for 20 bux back then, today they are worth $ 433.00 melt value.  Collector value is double that or more for common dates in fine condition.

I stopped collecting mint stuff back in 2015 because they had priced stuff way too high. I now no longer collect since I have no one in the family interested and I am soon to be 70 years old. I am thinking of liquidating, but the thought of having to deal with it all keeps me from doing it.  

.

[RWB]

On 7/25/2024 at 11:12 PM, MorganMan said:

I remember the adults were pissed off about the clad stuff, and everyone was hoarding the silver coins after the  65 theft. The government basically stole from the citizens, replacing their silver with trinkets, that we still have today. As an example of the theft, if I had purchased 20 silver dollars for 20 bux back then, today they are worth $ 433.00 melt value.  Collector value is double that or more for common dates in fine condition.

Sorry, but this deserves correction. The increasing market price of silver forced removal of silver from subsidiary US coins. It was not "government theft" or any other such nonsense. Had industrial demand and insufficient supply not increased the open market value, we might have had the same silver alloy for many additional years. The Treasury had enough silver, bought during the Roosevelt administration, in its vaults to carry through at least 1970. Silver coin alloy was cheaper to fabricate than the clad replacement, and was much easier to strike than CuNi clad. (Compare 1964 and 1965 coins to see the obvious differences it design quality.) Added to increasing industrial demand (think photography, electronics, medicine), was speculation in metals markets which stimulated small scale hoarding.

"Everyone was hoarding the silver coins" is bologna. Silver coins did not suddenly vanish. Silver continued in normal circulation well into the 1970s until Treasury began pulling silver dimes and quarters from circulation and putting the metal back into the national reserve. This happened only after there was enough clad coin in circulation to avoid shortages.

Documents clearly show extreme reluctance by Treasury and elected officials (Senators, Congressmen, the President) to abandon silver coinage. But it was impossible for the government to freeze the value of silver, and gradual depreciation of the coinage was not a solution.

See the 2019 book, Private Pattern and Related Pieces: International Nickel & Gould Incorporated, for details.

 

Edited July 27 by RWB

[VKurtB]

On 7/26/2024 at 10:42 AM, RWB said:

Sorry, but this deserves correction. The increasing market price of silver forced removal of silver from subsidiary US coins. It was not "government theft" or any other such nonsense. Had industrial demand and insufficient supply not increased the open market value, we might have had the same silver allow for many additional years. The Treasury had enough silver, bought during the Roosevelt administration, in its vaults to carry through at least 1970. Silver coin alloy was cheaper to fabricate than the clad replacement, and was much easier to strike than CuNi clad. (Compare 1964 and 1965 coins to see the obvious differences it design quality.) Added to increasing industrial demand (think photography, electronics, medicine), was speculation in metals markets which stimulated small scale hoarding.

"Everyone was hoarding the silver coins" is bologna. Silver coins did not suddenly vanish. Silver continued in normal circulation well into the 1970s until Treasury began pulling silver dimes and quarters from circulation and putting the metal back into the national reserve. This happened only after there was enough clad coin in circulation to avoid shortages.

Documents clearly show extreme reluctance by Treasury and elected officials (Senators, Congressmen, the President) to abandon silver coinage. But it was impossible for the government to freeze the value of silver, and gradual depreciation of the coinage was not a solution.

Yes, Roger is 100% correct here. Some people actually hoarded rolls of the “new coins”, the 1965 clad coins. One such was my father, and I still have those rolls to this very day. Imagine. 1965 dimes and quarters, each one as the day they were minted. Continuing to make silver coins would have been sheer madness. 

Edited July 27 by VKurtB

[Dave1384]

My mother was a cashier in a school cafeteria. She would pull out silver given to her by students, replacing it with her change. Not much came home after the changeover. I absolutely hated clad coinage. Still do. 
To make matters worse for me, I had a small world bank globe filled with silver coins in my bedroom. One night , on Christmas Eve, I went to get a regular nickel out of it for a newspaper, entered my bedroom and…. it was gone. Never really got over it. 

[numisport]

On 7/24/2024 at 7:50 PM, RWB said:

There was general disgust with the Mint for lousy quality and an inflated price. Proof sets were wanted not these crappy Special Mint Sets.

As you well know carefully selected high quality pieces are available for all 3 sets those being 1965, 1966 and 1967. I've chosen Cameo designated coins that resemble proofs of 68, 69 and 1970 and while not quite flawless do have exceptional eye appeal. Some are quite scarce and can be seen if anyone cares to view my Registry set in the NGC Registry. 

[RWB]

On 7/28/2024 at 12:50 PM, numisport said:

carefully selected

Those are the key words.

[numisport]

On 7/28/2024 at 2:23 PM, RWB said:

Those are the key words.

Roger if you agree that for the '36 to '42 proof series the toughest coin in gem condition is either of the 2 1936 proof cents, you would probably agree that the toughest gem in the Cameo SMS series is the 1965 cent in gem red heavy cameo. I was able to find a nice '65 in MS 65 Star Red Cameo.

Edited July 28 by numisport
image added

[RWB]

I feel the overall 1965 SMS quality was so poor and erratic that any cameo coin from a set is a special prize. I've seen a couple of 5-coin cameo sets in slabs, and one "not quite" set in the original holder. Your cent is a great looking piece.

[VKurtB]

On 7/29/2024 at 10:08 AM, RWB said:

I feel the overall 1965 SMS quality was so poor and erratic that any cameo coin from a set is a special prize. I've seen a couple of 5-coin cameo sets in slabs, and one "not quite" set in the original holder. Your cent is a great looking piece.

I have seen some of the nicest 1965 SMS coins in England, of all places. They must not be as aware that really nice ones are kinda scarce.

[powermad5000]

On 7/26/2024 at 10:42 AM, RWB said:

Silver coins did not suddenly vanish. Silver continued in normal circulation well into the 1970s until Treasury began pulling silver dimes and quarters from circulation and putting the metal back into the national reserve.

I worked a cash register as my first real job in my teens. I got silver coins nearly every day (Roosy's and Washington quarters). The occasional Kennedy half as well. I want to say the last time I got anything silver besides the Canadian quarter I got, was a Washington quarter dated 1964 in change in about the year 2017. Either the Treasury did never get all of it or some people along the way long after clad had fully replaced most of the silver would have some coins laying either in a drawer or jar and decided they weren't worth keeping anymore even though they were silver. Or, they just had no clue of melt values.

[cladking]

While the general public hardly took note of a change in coinage metals collectors despised not only the change but the coins themselves.  Just the threat of a change with the first date freeze in 1964 had caused a collapse in the BU roll market for moderns which was a very important segment in 1964.  But then came the second date freeze and the change itself by Thanksgiving of 1965 with a broader based and more severe collapse in market values. This included mint and proof sets as well as some older coins and left little untouched.  Collector behavior was also influenced by the proposed law before Congress that would effectively ban coin collecting of any coin made after that date in perpetuity.  The law failed chiefly because nobody was saving the new coins anyway. 

BU rolls of most moderns made after 1966 are very scarce but this is hidden by the fact that there is very low demand.  If you do see a "BU roll" is is most probably not an original roll but actually assembled from mint sets.  

[cladking]

On 7/29/2024 at 10:08 AM, RWB said:

I feel the overall 1965 SMS quality was so poor and erratic that any cameo coin from a set is a special prize. I've seen a couple of 5-coin cameo sets in slabs, and one "not quite" set in the original holder. Your cent is a great looking piece.

Not only did few of these coins achieve the intended standard but there were many different standards.  Many brand new dies were not frosted. 

I've never seen 4 cameos in a 65 set but I have seen three a couple  times.  Fewer than 1% of these as issued would rate as cameos today and the cent (as pictured above) is quite scarce.  The dime and nickel are also tougher.  

As a rule these coins should be removed from the original packaging and stabilized in 91% alcohol.  Already 90%+ of the coins are at least lightly hazed.  While the hazing is usually removable at first it gets harder and harder with poorer and poorer results the longer it remains. Good storage is key but even coins in the best storage will haze in time I believe.  

[cladking]

On 7/24/2024 at 6:50 PM, RWB said:

There was general disgust with the Mint for lousy quality and an inflated price. Proof sets were wanted not these crappy Special Mint Sets.

Many people wanted mint sets as well but the SMS were too "special issue" or too "NCLT" for them.  Nobody liked them much and the 40% silver half just reminded everyone what had been lost in our coinage.  Sales were dismal so the mint experimented with different finishes and techniques to make them. The sets remained hated even into this century until in recent years they have acquired a few fans.  Large percentages of the sets are completely gone and today the "stopper" for assembling the sets from SMS rolls is the half dollar causing it to wholesale as high as $9@.   The cent is a stopper to make nice sets but this is usually overcome by just using substandard and tarnished cents.  FB dimes and FS nickels are quite tough for all three years of SMS.  Nice choice cents with full steps are more common but there were few made for circulation so it's obvious these sets are still being overlooked.  

[samclemen3991]

@cladking.  I have a question. Since slabs are not air tight will these coins develop a haze while in the holder?  James

[J P M]

On 7/31/2024 at 12:32 PM, samclemen3991 said:

@cladking.  I have a question. Since slabs are not air tight will these coins develop a haze while in the holder?  James

I have some of these and they look fine. I think keeping them in the paper box helps

[GoldFinger1969]

I'm curious about how gold coins traded in 1965.  They were still generally prohibited for the masses but not collectors/numismatists.  Leland Howard was still causing problems 20 years after being a PITA on the 1933 DEs.

(1)  If you wanted to buy Saints or other gold coins that were already in the U.S.....could you ?

(2)  What about coins outside the U.S. -- could you "sneak" them back in or was that 1960 law a further deterrent ?

[VKurtB]

On 8/2/2024 at 2:22 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I'm curious about how gold coins traded in 1965.  They were still generally prohibited for the masses but not collectors/numismatists.  Leland Howard was still causing problems 20 years after being a PITA on the 1933 DEs.

(1)  If you wanted to buy Saints or other gold coins that were already in the U.S.....could you ?

(2)  What about coins outside the U.S. -- could you "sneak" them back in or was that 1960 law a further deterrent ?

It was illegal to own gold bullion in 1960. It was even illegal for Americans to buy gold where it was legal to sell it, such as in Switzerland. Numismatic coins (pre-1933) and jewelry were excepted. 

Edited August 8 by VKurtB