Unusual uncirculated 1971-s Ike Silver Dollar 1 1

[ZerK_DeeZ]

Please help recently came across this coin sealed in cheap plastic. Being dumb, not realizing what it could possibly be I opened to get a better look. Immediately noticed this thing looks different from any other Ike, I've ever seen. 4hrs of research, and here we are, posting hoping someone can help identify whether this could possibly be another prototype find.

Weight 24.4g

[Greenstang]

Can you be more specific in what you see that "looks different". All I see is a regular Ike with some minor machine doubling   

Certainly not a prototype.

[ZerK_DeeZ]

On 7/23/2024 at 5:20 PM, Greenstang said:

Can you be more specific in what you see that "looks different". All I see is a regular Ike with some minor machine doubling   

Certainly not a prototype.

Sure NP!!

#1. Weight

#2. Ikes ear isn't finished... (Very fine details).

#3. The moons craters lack finer details also. 

#4. The composition is just different looking not the normal proofs.

#5. You see those x2 gouged makes under Ikes bust. Believe that may be where the artist/engraver was testing the metal compositions.

[Coinbuf]

I see nothing out of the ordinary

1) standard weight for the silver clad (like your 71-S) is 24.59 grams, thus yours is within tolerance.

2) and 3) can be attributed to a slightly weak strike

4) care to expand on this a bit, I see nothing in the photos to suggest anything but a toned normal coin

5) damage, just damage

[RWB]

Your coin seems to have somewhat fewer scrapes and scratches than usual, although it is not of exceptional quality. It appears to be a normal coin struck for circulation. There are a few minor variations in 1971 dollars but none are worth much to collectors.

[ZerK_DeeZ]

On 7/23/2024 at 5:39 PM, Coinbuf said:

I see nothing out of the ordinary

1) standard weight for the silver clad (like your 71-S) is 24.59 grams, thus yours is within tolerance.

2) and 3) can be attributed to a slightly weak strike

4) care to expand on this a bit, I see nothing in the photos to suggest anything but a toned normal coin

5) damage, just damage

Same thing the first 2 collectors of Ikes said when they acquired theirs. One found in pawn shop roll of Ikes, another at an collectors table of rolls. I guess you really have to read about the history and variances to get excited, but I truly believe this was the one Frank G??? Held in his hand while finishing the finished die..

[RWB]

On 7/23/2024 at 5:47 PM, ZerK_DeeZ said:

but I truly believe this was the one Frank G??? Held in his hand while finishing the finished die..

Bologna !

[Coinbuf]

On 7/23/2024 at 2:47 PM, ZerK_DeeZ said:

Same thing the first 2 collectors of Ikes said when they acquired theirs. One found in pawn shop roll of Ikes, another at an collectors table of rolls. I guess you really have to read about the history and variances to get excited, but I truly believe this was the one Frank G??? Held in his hand while finishing the finished die..

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, fantasies only need dreams, where is your proof?

[ZerK_DeeZ]

Like I stated beginning the post. I'm making no claims other than where my research has taken me. Point being I posted about it asking for other collectors input. 

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

What research have you done specifically?  I am assuming it's more than the 5 items listed above.  For me to "truly believe" something, I need to be convinced of the facts. Make me a believer! 

Edit note:  I used the link @Sandon provided (below) to try to see if I can attribute your coin.  I am having trouble, and I would like to have images of all the areas in the Lydston and Chatham document.  This will assist in determining the variety.

Edited July 24 by The Neophyte Numismatist

[Sandon]

    Welcome to the NGC chat board.       

On 7/23/2024 at 5:31 PM, ZerK_DeeZ said:

The composition is just different looking not the normal proofs.

    All 1971-S Eisenhower dollars are silver clad (40% silver) and were collectors' issues. They are normally "different looking" from the 1971, 1971-D and other copper nickel clad circulation issues. The mint reported sales of 6,868,530 circulation quality pieces and 4,265,234 proofs. Your coin is clearly one of the circulation quality pieces, not a proof.  The circulation quality pieces, referred to as "uncirculated", were sold for $3 each and were housed in a soft plastic sheet with two compartments, one containing the coin and the other a blue hard plastic token with silver colored print. The sheet was in turn placed in a dark blue envelope along with an informational card. There were similar issues of silver clad pieces dated 1972, 1973, and 1974.

   The seventh edition of the deluxe or "Mega Red" version of A Guide Book of United States Coins (2022) includes an extensive special section on dollar coins.  Pages 793 to 837 deal with Eisenhower dollars and include an extensive study of variations in the design details of these coins.  Although different obverse and/or reverse styles are known for 1971-S proofs, all 1971-S circulation quality pieces are considered to be from the same obverse and reverse hubs (pp. 805-06, 821-22).  There is a reference on p.822 to a possible prototype 1971-S with "slight variations" described on "The Ike Group" web site, https://www.ikegroup.info/, which requires entry into an agreement to use.

    Please show clear images of pertinent areas of this coin and of a "normal" 1971-S uncirculated silver clad Eisenhower dollar to demonstrate that Eisenhower's ear and the moon's craters are "different". 

[RWB]

The specialist collectors known as "The Ike Group" has been promoting all sorts of rubbish with no proof. (Golf equipment on the reverse, etc.) I located the documents that include the word "prototype," but there is not enough detail to draw any conclusion -- despite what PCGS falsely claims.

Merely another example of people not doing careful research before coming to a conclusion.

Edited July 24 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/23/2024 at 6:12 PM, ZerK_DeeZ said:

Like I stated beginning the post. I'm making no claims other than where my research has taken me. Point being I posted about it asking for other collectors input. 

Where's the research to back up what you are saying ? 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/23/2024 at 8:27 PM, Sandon said:

 All 1971-S Eisenhower dollars are silver clad (40% silver) and were collectors' issues. They are normally "different looking" from the 1971, 1971-D and other copper nickel clad circulation issues. The mint reported sales of 6,868,530 circulation quality pieces and 4,265,234 proofs. Your coin is clearly one of the circulation quality pieces, not a proof.  The circulation quality pieces, referred to as "uncirculated", were sold for $3 each and were housed in a soft plastic sheet with two compartments, one containing the coin and the other a blue hard plastic token with silver colored print. The sheet was in turn placed in a dark blue envelope along with an informational card. There were similar issues of silver clad pieces dated 1972, 1973, and 1974.  The seventh edition of the deluxe or "Mega Red" version of A Guide Book of United States Coins (2022) includes an extensive special section on dollar coins.  Pages 793 to 837 deal with Eisenhower dollars and include an extensive study of variations in the design details of these coins.  Although different obverse and/or reverse styles are known for 1971-S proofs, all 1971-S circulation quality pieces are considered to be from the same obverse and reverse hubs (pp. 805-06, 821-22).  There is a reference on p.822 to a possible prototype 1971-S with "slight variations" described on "The Ike Group" web site, https://www.ikegroup.info/, which requires entry into an agreement to use.   Please show clear images of pertinent areas of this coin and of a "normal" 1971-S uncirculated silver clad Eisenhower dollar to demonstrate that Eisenhower's ear and the moon's craters are "different". 

Now, THAT'S research !!!    

[powermad5000]

On 7/23/2024 at 4:31 PM, ZerK_DeeZ said:

#1. Weight

#2. Ikes ear isn't finished... (Very fine details).

#3. The moons craters lack finer details also. 

#4. The composition is just different looking not the normal proofs.

#5. You see those x2 gouged makes under Ikes bust. Believe that may be where the artist/engraver was testing the metal compositions.

#1 - Silver issue weight of 24.59g +- 0.52g puts your weight of 24.4g well within mint tolerance.

#2 - Ike's ear looks just like the ear found on NGC Coin Explorer for a 1971 S circulation strike.

#3 - Low relief (Variety 1) dies, with flattened Earth and three islands off Florida were used for all copper-nickel issues of 1971, uncirculated silver coins (S) for 1971 [The coin you have], and most copper-nickel issues for 1972. This is the variety I see on your coin.

High relief (Variety 2) dies with round Earth and weak or indistinct islands were used for most proofs of 1971, [This is why you think the craters lack fine details because the relief for circulation issues Variety 1 which is what you have lacked the finer details that the high relief Variety 2 proof reverse had and this also ties into your #4] Variety 2 for all silver (S) issues of 1972, and the reverse for some scarce (P) copper-nickel for 1972.

Improved high relief reverse dies (Variety 3) were used for late 1972 (P) copper nickel, and all subsequent issues.

Modified high relief dies were used on ALL issues beginning in 1973.

The point of all this discourse is in regard to your #3. You can't look at any other years, or even proofs for the same year and expect to see the same details, especially on the reverse.

#4 - Yours is an uncirculated (S) strike, not a proof (S) strike. That is why the composition looks different because the two are different methods of manufacture.

#5 - Gouges are damage. No where in any form or fashion does the artist or engraver perform such tests on ANY coin. There is no reason for either to do so and there is no documentation anywhere that suggests these types of tests were ever performed at the mint POST striking of any coin.

 

You have a normal low relief 1971 S Eisenhower 40% silver dollar uncirculated strike coin with Variety 1 reverse of which 6,868,530 were made.

[VKurtB]

Soooooooo ordinary and unremarkable. 

[Halbrook Family]

On 7/26/2024 at 8:53 PM, VKurtB said:

Soooooooo ordinary and unremarkable. 

To be totally fair it is worth almost $9. If you are a new coin collector I'd say it was a good start if you bought it cheaper then that. 

Or if you  have been collecting for a long time then why didn't you keep it in the blue envelope? But it's still worth $9 or so. 

$9 is alot of money for one coin to be worth. 

[ZerK_DeeZ]

On 7/24/2024 at 1:29 AM, powermad5000 said:

#1 - Silver issue weight of 24.59g +- 0.52g puts your weight of 24.4g well within mint tolerance.

#2 - Ike's ear looks just like the ear found on NGC Coin Explorer for a 1971 S circulation strike.

#3 - Low relief (Variety 1) dies, with flattened Earth and three islands off Florida were used for all copper-nickel issues of 1971, uncirculated silver coins (S) for 1971 [The coin you have], and most copper-nickel issues for 1972. This is the variety I see on your coin.

High relief (Variety 2) dies with round Earth and weak or indistinct islands were used for most proofs of 1971, [This is why you think the craters lack fine details because the relief for circulation issues Variety 1 which is what you have lacked the finer details that the high relief Variety 2 proof reverse had and this also ties into your #4] Variety 2 for all silver (S) issues of 1972, and the reverse for some scarce (P) copper-nickel for 1972.

Improved high relief reverse dies (Variety 3) were used for late 1972 (P) copper nickel, and all subsequent issues.

Modified high relief dies were used on ALL issues beginning in 1973.

The point of all this discourse is in regard to your #3. You can't look at any other years, or even proofs for the same year and expect to see the same details, especially on the reverse.

#4 - Yours is an uncirculated (S) strike, not a proof (S) strike. That is why the composition looks different because the two are different methods of manufacture.

#5 - Gouges are damage. No where in any form or fashion does the artist or engraver perform such tests on ANY coin. There is no reason for either to do so and there is no documentation anywhere that suggests these types of tests were ever performed at the mint POST striking of any coin.

 

You have a normal low relief 1971 S Eisenhower 40% silver dollar uncirculated strike coin with Variety 1 reverse of which 6,868,530 were.

First!! I just want too say TY for your honest input, and time regarding the matter. I'm not a long time collector and have even less knowledge when it comes to Ikes. It's crazy how much flack I get back simply asking ppls opinions, at no point did I state or promote that this is the prototype I found. Simply asked what others thought? Most ppl have no idea of the prototypes, or the facts that the mint played around with metal comps. That year. I live in the D.C. area where this coin has remained since being brought home by an government employ back in the 70s. Sat in a drawer all these years. Did not have a blue folder package, only ciliphan with blue chip and Ike. 

[powermad5000]

On 7/27/2024 at 2:05 PM, ZerK_DeeZ said:

Did not have a blue folder package, only ciliphan with blue chip and Ike.

I had one of these for the 1972 S. I still have the envelope and blue chip. Somehow the cello got a small hole even in the blue envelope so I sent it in and had it conserved and graded.

[ZerK_DeeZ]

On 7/23/2024 at 8:27 PM, Sandon said:

    Welcome to the NGC chat board.       

    All 1971-S Eisenhower dollars are silver clad (40% silver) and were collectors' issues. They are normally "different looking" from the 1971, 1971-D and other copper nickel clad circulation issues. The mint reported sales of 6,868,530 circulation quality pieces and 4,265,234 proofs. Your coin is clearly one of the circulation quality pieces, not a proof.  The circulation quality pieces, referred to as "uncirculated", were sold for $3 each and were housed in a soft plastic sheet with two compartments, one containing the coin and the other a blue hard plastic token with silver colored print. The sheet was in turn placed in a dark blue envelope along with an informational card. There were similar issues of silver clad pieces dated 1972, 1973, and 1974.

   The seventh edition of the deluxe or "Mega Red" version of A Guide Book of United States Coins (2022) includes an extensive special section on dollar coins.  Pages 793 to 837 deal with Eisenhower dollars and include an extensive study of variations in the design details of these coins.  Although different obverse and/or reverse styles are known for 1971-S proofs, all 1971-S circulation quality pieces are considered to be from the same obverse and reverse hubs (pp. 805-06, 821-22).  There is a reference on p.822 to a possible prototype 1971-S with "slight variations" described on "The Ike Group" web site, https://www.ikegroup.info/, which requires entry into an agreement to use.

    Please show clear images of pertinent areas of this coin and of a "normal" 1971-S uncirculated silver clad Eisenhower dollar to demonstrate that Eisenhower's ear and the moon's craters are "different". 

 

[ZerK_DeeZ]

On 7/27/2024 at 4:21 PM, ZerK_DeeZ said:

 

 

[ZerK_DeeZ]

On 7/23/2024 at 6:42 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

What research have you done specifically?  I am assuming it's more than the 5 items listed above.  For me to "truly believe" something, I need to be convinced of the facts. Make me a believer! 

Edit note:  I used the link @Sandon provided (below) to try to see if I can attribute your coin.  I am having trouble, and I would like to have images of all the areas in the Lydston and Chatham document.  This will assist in determining the variety.

[Sandon]

    The page from the literature that you are showing appears to deal with proof 1971-S Eisenhower dollars, not the circulation quality strike or "uncirculated" 1971-S issue. Proof and circulation quality strikes involve different methods of manufacture and sometimes different design details and are considered different issues.  The characteristics of different proof strike varieties is irrelevant to determining whether there is anything "special" about your coin. You would have to compare it to examples of other 1971-S "uncirculated" pieces, of which millions still exist in original government packaging, coin albums, grading service holders, and other holders and show how its design details differ from these other coins in a way indicating that it was based on a different master die. (Coins of the same issue normally vary in appearance based upon striking pressure, die wear, and other factors.)   You should easily be able to obtain such a coin for comparison at a coin show, coin shop or online. You can also compare it with the high-quality images on the NGC Coin Explorer, 1971 S SILVER $1 MS | Coin Explorer | NGC (ngccoin.com) or PCGS Coinfacts, https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1971-s-1-silver/7408.

On 7/27/2024 at 3:05 PM, ZerK_DeeZ said:

I live in the D.C. area where this coin has remained since being brought home by an government employ back in the 70s. Sat in a drawer all these years. Did not have a blue folder package, only ciliphan with blue chip and Ike. 

   The U.S. Mint operated a gift shop in the Treasury Building in the 1970s and 80s where anyone could buy currently offered mint products for collectors that were also available by mail. I bought such items there myself. I think that the shop has since been relocated elsewhere in the District of Columbia. The cellophane envelope and plastic token are normal, and the blue envelope and card were probably discarded. Nothing about these circumstances suggests that the coin has some special provenance that would be consistent with its being a "prototype". Why would such an exceptional piece have been given to the person who acquired it? 

[Sandon]

      I located the 1971-S uncirculated Eisenhower dollar I have owned since 1974 or earlier. Here is a scan of the coin in its original wrapper (which I tore and taped decades ago) with the blue envelope and card:

   Note the comments on the card regarding the differences in manufacture between uncirculated and proof coins and that these coins might not be "free from blemishes" such as the abrasion beneath the eagle's wing on the topic author's coin. (The 1971-S issue was often heavily marked, which led to complaints from collectors and better quality for the similar 1972-74 issues.)

    Here are images (the best I can do through the cellophane with a digital microscope) of the full obverse and reverse of my coin, as well as close ups of Eisenhower's ear, eye, and nose and the moon's craters, on which I can see no notable difference from the topic author's coin:

[J P M]

I will say, I never was impressed with the Ike's they are just muddy looking. The proofs can be cool looking but nothing to write home about.  

[ZerK_DeeZ]

On 7/27/2024 at 5:43 PM, Sandon said:

    The page from the literature that you are showing appears to deal with proof 1971-S Eisenhower dollars, not the circulation quality strike or "uncirculated" 1971-S issue. Proof and circulation quality strikes involve different methods of manufacture and sometimes different design details and are considered different issues.  The characteristics of different proof strike varieties is irrelevant to determining whether there is anything "special" about your coin. You would have to compare it to examples of other 1971-S "uncirculated" pieces, of which millions still exist in original government packaging, coin albums, grading service holders, and other holders and show how its design details differ from these other coins in a way indicating that it was based on a different master die. (Coins of the same issue normally vary in appearance based upon striking pressure, die wear, and other factors.)   You should easily be able to obtain such a coin for comparison at a coin show, coin shop or online. You can also compare it with the high-quality images on the NGC Coin Explorer, 1971 S SILVER $1 MS | Coin Explorer | NGC (ngccoin.com) or PCGS Coinfacts, https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1971-s-1-silver/7408.

   The U.S. Mint operated a gift shop in the Treasury Building in the 1970s and 80s where anyone could buy currently offered mint products for collectors that were also available by mail. I bought such items there myself. I think that the shop has since been relocated elsewhere in the District of Columbia. The cellophane envelope and plastic token are normal, and the blue envelope and card were probably discarded. Nothing about these circumstances suggests that the coin has some special provenance that would be consistent with its being a "prototype". Why would such an exceptional piece have been given to the person who acquired it? 

You know honestly after doing even more research (The pages of pics provided were the notes and guide references prepared by original appraiser of the prototypes). Who specifically mentioned that each one found was by a collector within mixed proof lots. However could tell they were not normal proofs. Only after months of attributed research were they discovered, to be what they are and weight is same like point on. 

[Halbrook Family]

On 7/27/2024 at 5:34 PM, ZerK_DeeZ said:

You know honestly after doing even more research (The pages of pics provided were the notes and guide references prepared by original appraiser of the prototypes). Who specifically mentioned that each one found was by a collector within mixed proof lots. However could tell they were not normal proofs. Only after months of attributed research were they discovered, to be what they are and weight is same like point on. 

Let me see if I got this right. You got a prototype coin in a roll of Ike dollars? And there is only 4 known on the planet? Send it in for a grade. Say for example it's a $10,000 coin. How much will it cost to grade? 

[Halbrook Family]

On 7/27/2024 at 12:14 PM, powermad5000 said:

I had one of these for the 1972 S. I still have the envelope and blue chip. Somehow the cello got a small hole even in the blue envelope so I sent it in and had it conserved and graded.

You paid to have it conserved and graded though you can buy a mint one for $10 or $15? Why? 

[Coinbuf]

On 7/27/2024 at 6:00 PM, Halbrook Family said:

Let me see if I got this right. You got a prototype coin in a roll of Ike dollars? And there is only 4 known on the planet? Send it in for a grade. Say for example it's a $10,000 coin. How much will it cost to grade? 

First he doesn't have a prototype coin, we know this because he has provided zero proof just wishful thinking.    Nor did he get it from a roll, he said that one of the two known came from a roll not this coin.   Here is what the op wrote above:

"I live in the D.C. area where this coin has remained since being brought home by an government employ back in the 70s. Sat in a drawer all these years."

As the coin he has is just a normal everyday coin the cost to grade will be around $40 the same as any modern coin would cost to have graded.   As we have seen multiple times (like in this thread Linky ) NGC does not overcharge customers who have no idea what they have or have sent in.

On 7/27/2024 at 6:02 PM, Halbrook Family said:

You paid to have it conserved and graded though you can buy a mint one for $10 or $15? Why? 

While I cannot directly answer your question collectors have on many occasions spent monies on grading that may not have been the best decision monetarily speaking.   We usually try and dissuade newbies from sending coins in for grading until they know enough to know what they are doing.   But advanced or longtime collectors might do something like this for reasons other than monetary gain, noting wrong with having coins graded if you know what and why you are doing so.

Edited July 28 by Coinbuf

[powermad5000]

On 7/27/2024 at 8:02 PM, Halbrook Family said:

You paid to have it conserved and graded though you can buy a mint one for $10 or $15? Why?

Because it graded MS 68, that's why. $120 in the price guide. I bought it as a kid and if I am not mistaken the original purchase price was $7.

Edited July 28 by powermad5000