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GTG: 1908 No Motto Saint
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31 posts in this topic

Don't cheat and look up ! :mad:

It was just sold, guess the grade and once divulged we can talk about the price, PCGS vs. NGC, CAC and CACG influences I am seeing, etc.

 

MS-67 1908 NM June 2024small.jpg

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These are the "before" pics.  How 'bout I meet you halfway...

"After" the coin has undergone an acetone rinse or warm EVOO bath, we will get a better idea as to grade if what we see is minor wear or cabinet friction. It's a beautiful coin with good overall surface preservation, but as of now it straddles the MS/AU divide. IMHO.

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On 6/24/2024 at 6:38 AM, RonnieR131 said:

 Me grading a coin is laughable. AU55+.

I see experts ATS split on some coins between MS and AU and off by 10 increments so your skills aren't as "laughable" as you think. :)

Of course, all of this is done via pictures which is different in-hand.

Everybody chime in today and I'll post the grade right after Game 7 of the Stanley Cup Finals tonight. (thumbsu

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My guess is MS 62.

The photo is not as sharp as it could be.  So, that raises the coin up had it been a sharp photo.

I don't see any major dings or scratches, so I bumped it to MS 62.

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My rationale is simple.  The coin is lovely, no doubt about it, but if it graded accordingly, we wouldn't be having this conversation or Topic.  So I am putting my techical grading skills, to the extent I may have, to use.  Evidently, RWB and I see the gray areas that, remarkably, eluded notice by Greenstang.  I don't know what horse is running in the Stanley Cup Finals, but I am going to throw in with Roger. If Edmonton wins, so be it.  I do not believe I have much of a reputation or credibility left to lose.  🤣

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Posted (edited)
On 6/24/2024 at 11:18 AM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

My guess is MS 62.  The photo is not as sharp as it could be.  So, that raises the coin up had it been a sharp photo.

I don't see any major dings or scratches, so I bumped it to MS 62.

UPDATED HI-DEF PHOTO:  This was taken apparently by a well-known coin photographer and the resolution is pretty Hi-Def.  I had to shrink it a bit since this website limits size.  Original was 4000x2000; I think that one uploaded over the weekend was only 2000x1000.

Here's one shrunk only to 3800x1900.  Hopefully shows more detail.  See more detail ?

1908 NM MS-67 $6K June 2024reduced.jpg

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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Posted (edited)

Wow....for some reason, the photo I originally posted was only 900x451 when I saved it on my PC !!:o  I uploaded and trimmed the original from someone else's PC over the weekend so maybe settings were different than on my PC which I am currently using.

The new photo appears to show lots more detail.  Not a photo guy by any stretch but it seems to be much higher resolution/pixels and detail in the photo just attached in the post just above/before this one.

EDIT:  It is higher resolution, but when I saved it to my PC it was 2000x1001, not 3800x1900.  Don't ask me why. xD

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 6/24/2024 at 4:11 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I do not see it!  I stand ready to deploy drones, if necessary!  :hi:

GOT IT!  (thumbsu

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I had Roger's horse, AU-58, down for Win, Place & Show.  As a result of the enhanced resolution, I have no equivocation, I put the balance of what I have on another ticket: 

WIN - WIN - WIN!

 

 

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    Based on the photos, which I magnified to the maximum extent possible, this 1908 No Motto St. Gaudens double eagle appears to me to be a true gem uncirculated example (MS 66-67?) by current commercial grading standards with far below average abrasions, excellent luster, a good if not quite full strike, and some very light positive toning adding to its overall "eye appeal". There is some very light disturbance to the luster at the highest points, which is usually interpreted nowadays as "roll friction" that affects the mint state grade but is not regarded as wear.

   The problem is that one can't reliably grade coins that are in or near uncirculated condition from photos, especially those such as those offered by Great Collections or PCGS, which appear enhanced to make any coin look good.  I would need to see the actual coin at different angles in good lighting, both with and without magnification, to come up with an informed opinion. (If the coin was certified by CAC Grading, it is possible that the luster disturbance at the highest points was interpreted as wear and the coin graded AU 58 or AU 58+.)

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On 6/24/2024 at 7:22 PM, J P M said:

I have found the new Great collection photos are much better than the TPG photos. I will say it is a MS 66

But if that were the case (MS-66) why would the OP post a coin which appears, at first blush, to be just that?

There's method to this "G.I. Joe with the Kung-Fu grip" madness and the devil lurks in the details.

Btw, you cannot help but admire the way Sandon weighed in making sure he covered all the bases.  🤣

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On 6/24/2024 at 7:39 PM, Henri Charriere said:

But if that were the case (MS-66) why would the OP post a coin which appears, at first blush, to be just that? There's method to this "G.I. Joe with the Kung-Fu grip" madness and the devil lurks in the details. Btw, you cannot help but admire the way Sandon weighed in making sure he covered all the bases.  🤣

Tune in tonight........in about 3 hours....SAME BAT-TIME....SAME BAT-CHANNEL !!!

Holy, Third Party Graders, Batman !! xD

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Posted (edited)

Congrats to Sandon and JPM !!  The coin is an NGC MS-67... apologize for originally posting the low-res pics, I saved them as hi-def but something happened in the translation.  Hopefully everbody saw some higher-res pics I posted later on.

Sandon threw out 67 in his range estimate and JPM came pretty damn close, too.  Special mention to Greenstang, who was off by a few increments in the MS grade...but loses points for choosing Edmonton to hoist the Cup. :)

Anyway....here's the coin with those super hi-res photos if you want to really zoom in for details:

https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1601806/1908-Saint-Gaudens-Gold-Double-Eagle-No-Motto-Wells-Fargo-Nevada-Gold-NGC-MS-67

Went for just under $6,000 for an MS-67 with bp....holder is from 2001 when I think market grading had already begun, if you are into tracking that sort of thing.

 

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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Buyer beware and here's where a CAC opinion would be great. Slight circulation rub has kept many NGC and PCGS coins from being verified. Cross it to CACG and you could have 4th party confirmation of either AU58 or MS67. Oh, wait it's not supposed to work like that hm

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On 7/15/2024 at 11:01 AM, numisport said:

Buyer beware and here's where a CAC opinion would be great. Slight circulation rub has kept many NGC and PCGS coins from being verified. Cross it to CACG and you could have 4th party confirmation of either AU58 or MS67. Oh, wait it's not supposed to work like that hm

This is the perfect coin where if you don't have the CAC, you could lose 60% of the value if it goes into the AU bucket.

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On 7/14/2024 at 7:38 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Any thoughts on the grade ? :taptaptap:

I'm late to the party but I would have called it as AU as I grade it but would have guessed it as MS65 from a TPG.   Do you have a link to this auction?   When I search the GC archives there is no listing for an NGC MS67 having been sold ever, GC archive shows 66+ (for NGC graded) as the highest and no auctions for 2024 over NGC MS64.

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On 7/15/2024 at 8:36 PM, Just Bob said:

Yes. It is overgraded.

Maybe... did you conduct an in-hand personal inspection?

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On 7/15/2024 at 4:56 PM, Coinbuf said:

I'm late to the party but I would have called it as AU as I grade it but would have guessed it as MS65 from a TPG.   Do you have a link to this auction?   When I search the GC archives there is no listing for an NGC MS67 having been sold ever, GC archive shows 66+ (for NGC graded) as the highest and no auctions for 2024 over NGC MS64.

https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1601806/1908-Saint-Gaudens-Gold-Double-Eagle-No-Motto-Wells-Fargo-Nevada-Gold-NGC-MS-67

It seems like the NGC-graded 1908 NM's are not selling at the Ask price because buyers think they are overgraded at least 1 increment.  Some overgrading on the PCGS ones, too.....sellers are just too high, lots of coins not getting any bids.

This one got 35 bids, though.

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On 7/17/2024 at 11:01 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1601806/1908-Saint-Gaudens-Gold-Double-Eagle-No-Motto-Wells-Fargo-Nevada-Gold-NGC-MS-67

It seems like the NGC-graded 1908 NM's are not selling at the Ask price because buyers think they are overgraded at least 1 increment.  Some overgrading on the PCGS ones, too.....sellers are just too high, lots of coins not getting any bids.

This one got 35 bids, though.

Thanks for the link, I now see that GC breaks out the Wells Fargo hoard coins in a separate category which I missed in my search, oddly this coin still doesn't show up in the GC archives.   Looks like this one sold for $400 more than a similar coin in Feb, so pretty much in line with the difference in gold spot.

Edited by Coinbuf
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On 7/18/2024 at 10:55 AM, Coinbuf said:

Thanks for the link, I now see that GC breaks out the Wells Fargo hoard coins in a separate category which I missed in my search.

Really ?  I didn't know that.  I just had it SAVED in my Watchlist and copied the link.  Not sure why they'd treat the 1908 NM's differently.

Must be the "No Motto" designation, technically makes it a different coin, like the MCMVII HRs.

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On 7/18/2024 at 7:58 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Really ?  I didn't know that.  I just had it SAVED in my Watchlist and copied the link.  Not sure why they'd treat the 1908 NM's differently.

Must be the "No Motto" designation, technically makes it a different coin, like the MCMVII HRs.

No, there is a regular no motto and then the Wells no motto, doesn't make any sense to split them in the archive to me but ok.

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