What to do when NGC accidentally grades a Proof coin MS 70 instead of PF 70 1 1

[Gray Electric]

I have quite a few Tesla coins. This one is a proof, graded MS 70, and set with the reverse on the label side. Why aren't any of my American Eagles set reversed. Lol. In fact roughly 50% of the Tesla coins are set in their holders backwards. Perhaps this was at the customer's request?? Or the grader thought the date meant it was the front??? So anyway, the big question is... Is this now considered an official NGC error due to the mislabeling and should it be documented as such?

[Gray Electric]

here are 2 other examples to compare too. not backwards and labeled properly.

[Greenstang]

A customer can request that the reverse be facing the front if they want.   
This is probably what happened in this case. I’m sure it is not an error on the part of NGC.

[J P M]

I would be happy to have a MS 70 of any coin most do not get a 70. We can see your coin is proof like. When looking up your coin I do not see any proof listings 

[Fenntucky Mike]

Not an error as far as coin orientation, NGC can orient the coin however they want or submitter requests. The MS vs PF is called a "mechanical error" and should be corrected for no charge by NGC. It happens more often than you'd think.

I actually would consider the depiction of Tesla being the reverse and the obverse having the Serbian coat-of-arms, date, & denomination. 

Edited June 8 by Fenntucky Mike
Clarification

[Henri Charriere]

Your question would elicit a more definitive answer on "Ask NGC/NCS" which may be found listed under NGC FORUMS.

They would be better able to advise you on matters relating to coin orientation and whether your coin is properly graded Mint State or Proof.

[Sandon]

   Welcome to the NGC chat board.

    If the first coin was issued as a proof by the government that issued it and is generally accepted as such, the "MS" designation on the label would be a mechanical error of the "labeling defect" variety and would be corrected by NGC without charge. See NGC’s Mechanical Errors / Returns Policy | NGC (ngccoin.com).  I recommend that you contact NGC Customer Service (service@ngccoin.com or (855) 472-3310) and inquire whether this issue can be certified as a proof. You can also post the inquiry on the "Ask NGC/NCS" forum.

    For world coins, especially noncirculating ones like the second and third coins, it is often difficult to determine which side was intended to be the obverse and which the reverse. Usually, the side with a portrait is considered to be the obverse. It is unlikely that NGC would consider this an error, mechanical or otherwise.

[Gray Electric]

Mechanical Error... That's pretty cool IMO. I'll contact customer service as suggested. I'm hoping they would just revise the database so when the coin is looked up on NGC it would come up as a Proof with a mechanical error. Something like that has to be very collectible and rare. I absolutely do not want the slab to be opened just to change the label. Way to much risk that the coin could be damaged. I picked this up at auction for $100 on eBay, the seller didn't know what he had and I honestly didn't realize what I ended up with until a few weeks later. The Proof coin cost is $200 in a raw ungraded state from Ampex etc. and are worth $900 as a PF 70 according to current listings on eBay. With a documented error it should be worth a bit more is my thought. I'll contact customer service and will update everyone with the findings. Appreciate everyone's help. Thank you!!! 

[Sandon]

On 6/8/2024 at 12:59 PM, Gray Electric said:

Something like that has to be very collectible and rare.

    Absolutely not! It's actually all-too common for grading services, including NGC and PCGS, to mislabel coins with incorrect methods of manufacture (such as circulation strike or proof), dates, mintmarks, denominations, or other basic information, even grades that are obviously incorrect. I have two of them myself, which I use to teach collectors not to assume that a grading service label is correct and to learn to evaluate coins with their own informed judgment. Grading services' guarantees don't apply to mechanical errors, it being the grading services' position that collectors should be able to realize such obvious errors. However, this is an obvious hazard for the uninformed public, and it is generally better to have the labels corrected. Such errors are a black eye for grading services, not a collectible.

   

[Gray Electric]

Attached here is an example of a 2021 PF70 and this is the current listing on Ebay for $899.99 as someone mentioned they could not find proof versions. There are no 2018 PF70's I've found yet, only seem to be able to locate the PF69's. They must have mislabeled the entire lot of 2018 tesla proofs wrong is what I'm thinking. 

2021 Serbia 100 Dinara Nikola Tesla Free Energy NGC PF 70 UCAM 369 MINTED RARE | eBay

[Gray Electric]

On 6/8/2024 at 10:19 AM, Sandon said:

    Absolutely not! It's actually all-too common for grading services, including NGC and PCGS, to mislabel coins with incorrect methods of manufacture (such as circulation strike or proof), dates, mintmarks, denominations, or other basic information, even grades that are obviously incorrect. I have two of them myself, which I use to teach collectors not to assume that a grading service label is correct and to learn to evaluate coins with their own informed judgment. Grading services' guarantees don't apply to mechanical errors, it being the grading services' position that collectors should be able to realize such obvious errors. However, this is an obvious hazard for the uninformed public, and it is generally better to have the labels corrected. Such errors are a black eye for grading services, not a collectible.

   

From the link given to me earlier in the post. The guarantee does apply apparently.

Who can submit a label defect for Mechanical Error?

Anyone can submit a label defect for Mechanical Error. You do not need to be an NGC member. If you need a submission form, please contact NGC Customer Service.

How long do I have to submit a label defect for Mechanical Error?

There is no time limit to submit a label defect for Mechanical Error.

How much does a Mechanical Error cost?

Qualifying Mechanical Errors are corrected at no cost to the submitter and are not charged shipping, insurance or handling fees. If NGC determines that a Mechanical Error submission is within its quality acceptance criteria, however, the submission will be returned in its original holder, and roundtrip shipping fees will be charged to the submitter.

 

[Sandon]

    

On 6/8/2024 at 1:30 PM, Gray Electric said:

The guarantee does apply apparently.

   What I mean by the "guarantee" is that the grading service agrees to pay damages to a collector who overpaid for a coin in reliance on the description on the label. There are guarantees of both authenticity and grade, with the grading guarantee being nebulous at best, but the guarantee of authenticity being of some value if the coin can be shown to be counterfeit or altered.  See NGC Guarantee | Coin Certification Guarantee | NGC (ngccoin.com).  Section 15 of the NGC Guarantee, dealing with "Clerical or Mechanical" errors, provides that the sole remedy for such an error is the relabeling of the holder without charge, as follows:

"15.  Clerical or Mechanical Errors. A clerical or mechanical error occurs when a Coin is encapsulated with a label that bears a grade and/or description that clearly does not correspond with the Coin. It is the duty of the buyer and seller of a Coin to examine such Coin for a clerical or mechanical error to return such Coins for correction when warranted. This Guarantee does not apply when Guarantor determines, in its sole reasonable discretion, that a clerical or mechanical error has resulted in the Coin having an incorrect grade or description. If requested, any clerical or mechanical errors will be remedied free of charge by updating the encapsulation to show an appropriate label.

NGC certification labels with incorrect dates, mintmarks, denominations or Coin types (all of which should be obvious to someone who performs an inspection of the Coin and label) are considered clerical or mechanical errors. Examples of such errors include, but are not limited to, the following:

A Coin is labeled a 1955 Doubled Die Lincoln Cent, when the Coin has no doubling.

A Coin label description references a 1916 Standing Liberty Quarter, when the Coin is a 1916 Barber Quarter.

A Coin is identified as a Proof, when it is a business strike and the types are readily distinguishable from each other.

A Coin is described as an 1881-O Morgan Dollar, when it is an 1881-S Morgan Dollar and the mintmark was improperly identified on the label.

A Coin is graded MS 68 when it should have been graded AU 58, an error with respect to grade that would be obvious to a collector.

Owners and prospective buyers of NGC-certified Coins are encouraged to enter the Coin’s NGC certification number in the Verify NGC Certification section of the NGC website to confirm a Coin’s grade and description and, for many Coins, view images of the Coin. If NGC becomes aware that a Coin was encapsulated with a label that bears a clerical or mechanical error, it will correct the error in its records and display the correct grade and/or description for that Coin in Verify NGC Certification."

    As I recall, PCGS's policy is the same.

[Gray Electric]

On 6/8/2024 at 10:46 AM, Sandon said:

    

   What I mean by the "guarantee" is that the grading service agrees to pay damages to a collector who overpaid for a coin in reliance on the description on the label. There are guarantees of both authenticity and grade, with the grading guarantee being nebulous at best, but the guarantee of authenticity being of some value if the coin can be shown to be counterfeit or altered.  See NGC Guarantee | Coin Certification Guarantee | NGC (ngccoin.com).  Section 15 of the NGC Guarantee, dealing with "Clerical or Mechanical" errors, provides that the sole remedy for such an error is the relabeling of the holder without charge, as follows:

"15.  Clerical or Mechanical Errors. A clerical or mechanical error occurs when a Coin is encapsulated with a label that bears a grade and/or description that clearly does not correspond with the Coin. It is the duty of the buyer and seller of a Coin to examine such Coin for a clerical or mechanical error to return such Coins for correction when warranted. This Guarantee does not apply when Guarantor determines, in its sole reasonable discretion, that a clerical or mechanical error has resulted in the Coin having an incorrect grade or description. If requested, any clerical or mechanical errors will be remedied free of charge by updating the encapsulation to show an appropriate label.

NGC certification labels with incorrect dates, mintmarks, denominations or Coin types (all of which should be obvious to someone who performs an inspection of the Coin and label) are considered clerical or mechanical errors. Examples of such errors include, but are not limited to, the following:

A Coin is labeled a 1955 Doubled Die Lincoln Cent, when the Coin has no doubling.

A Coin label description references a 1916 Standing Liberty Quarter, when the Coin is a 1916 Barber Quarter.

A Coin is identified as a Proof, when it is a business strike and the types are readily distinguishable from each other.

A Coin is described as an 1881-O Morgan Dollar, when it is an 1881-S Morgan Dollar and the mintmark was improperly identified on the label.

A Coin is graded MS 68 when it should have been graded AU 58, an error with respect to grade that would be obvious to a collector.

Owners and prospective buyers of NGC-certified Coins are encouraged to enter the Coin’s NGC certification number in the Verify NGC Certification section of the NGC website to confirm a Coin’s grade and description and, for many Coins, view images of the Coin. If NGC becomes aware that a Coin was encapsulated with a label that bears a clerical or mechanical error, it will correct the error in its records and display the correct grade and/or description for that Coin in Verify NGC Certification."

    As I recall, PCGS's policy is the same.

Thank you!!! That resolves all worries for me. The goal is to have the registry updated with the proper info, which it appears will be the case according to the information you've forwarded here. I have my request in to customer service to update the registry with the correct coin information, only addition to this is, I also requested it be listed in the registry as a mechanical "labeling" error. I'm hoping this will list it as a population of 1. Perhaps its wishful thinking to get a pop of 1 but this would at least update the registry with very specific info addressing the labeling which would reassure the authenticity. Thanks again, really appreciate your guidance. I'll update everyone to the final decision by NGC once I get a response. Have a wonderful weekend!

[Sandon]

On 6/8/2024 at 2:10 PM, Gray Electric said:

I also requested it be listed in the registry as a mechanical "labeling" error. I'm hoping this will list it as a population of 1.

   I highly doubt that NGC will do this and sincerely hope that they won't. It has nothing to do with the coin in the holder, which is what you should be collecting, not the little paper tag in the holder that incorrectly identifies it. As someone who has been collecting and studying coins since 1971--some 15 years before grading services that encapsulate coins with these little paper tags existed--your concept of collecting is totally alien to me.

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 6/8/2024 at 2:10 PM, Gray Electric said:

I also requested it be listed in the registry as a mechanical "labeling" error.

NGC will absolutely not do this. If you want it reviewed for a mechanical error and label change you'll have talk with NGC first and then get them to agree to review it, they'll probably ask for the cert # and a picture possibly, otherwise NGC will only recognize the coin based on how the coin is entered into their system. Also, while the coin may look like a proof in the images there is no guarantee that it isn't some special finish circulation strike either and that the MS designation is correct. Might be worth doing a little further research into this.

On 6/8/2024 at 9:57 AM, Sandon said:

For world coins, especially noncirculating ones like the second and third coins, it is often difficult to determine which side was intended to be the obverse and which the reverse. Usually, the side with a portrait is considered to be the obverse. It is unlikely that NGC would consider this an error, mechanical or otherwise.

Yes, if the effigy is of a reigning monarch or head of state that will typically be pegged as the obverse but for a coin like this I would disagree. Most modern NCLT coins that I see, those having no effigy of the current head honcho, would typically call the side with the state emblem, coat-of-arms, motto, etc., the obverse. I did some quick searching just now and there seems to be an even split between websites and articles calling the Tesla side the obverse or reverse. 

[Gray Electric]

On 6/8/2024 at 11:28 AM, Sandon said:

   I highly doubt that NGC will do this and sincerely hope that they won't. It has nothing to do with the coin in the holder, which is what you should be collecting, not the little paper tag in the holder that incorrectly identifies it. As someone who has been collecting and studying coins since 1971--some 15 years before grading services that encapsulate coins with these little paper tags existed--your concept of collecting is totally alien to me.

My concept of collecting has to do with my financial portfolio 5% of which should be commodities and any additional numismatic value is always welcome. Commodities with additional numismatic value hold their value and are not as susceptible to market variations in the prices of platinum, gold, and silver. They are also acceptable forms of an IRA of which $14,400.00 can be invested by a married couple a year and written off on the taxes. As time increases these values increase steadily and those graded 70 are the most highly sought after which is the key to why they hold their value. The collections I am building are for future retirement and the hope is to pass them down to my sons when the time comes. Proof 1986-current 1oz Eagles I am currently completing by tracking down coins at auction and not paying more than 70% of their book value. (I also watch how other auctions are doing and try to get the best price possible by looking at previous sales, book value isn't necessarily what someone is willing to pay so I include that in my evaluation well before any bidding.) For instance, a the 1995-W 1 oz eagle in PF70 is worth 20K in the price guide and retail pretty much agrees with a range of 20k for a standard label & 33k for a signed Mercanti label, lowest I've seen one sell for recently is $8K so i won't pay a penny over that which I figure as a instant financial portfolio gain of 150% on my purchase.

Here is an example on my eagles for instance.

Category	Invested	Value
U.S. Silver Eagle Proof 70 set	$9,166.94	$15,840.00

Purchased above consists of all proof, reverse, and enhanced 1 oz silver eagles graded PF70 from 1986-current. Current goal is complete this set 100% first although I have gotten a tad offtrack with great buys here and there that just couldn't be passed up. (I own 25 of 2021 tesla dinars graded MS70, retail value $150. Purchased all at an average of $80 each making a deal with a few people to take lots versus 1. So $2K invested on those 25 Tesla coins with a retail value of $3,750.00) In 20-30 years all values will increase without ever incurring a loss.  

I also purchased this year a 1 oz proof Gold Buffalo PF70, 1 oz proof Gold Eagles PF70 and for fun I am building a set of all dinars 2018-current depicting Nikola Tesla as I am a fan.

My personal ratio of the annual investment goal is 1 oz Platinum (Bar form this year), 2 oz Gold (Proof 70 1 oz American Eagle and Buffalo), 200 oz Silver (100oz in 10 oz bars and 100 oz in numismatic coin mostly PF70 1 oz American Eagles) 

[J P M]

Welcome Gray Electric I hope it works out for you. I have never seen bullion collecting as a big profit. I collect what I like for as little as posable and if I have something that happens to go up in value that's nice but not my goal.    

[Gray Electric]

On 6/9/2024 at 5:00 AM, J P M said:

Welcome Gray Electric I hope it works out for you. I have never seen bullion collecting as a big profit. I collect what I like for as little as posable and if I have something that happens to go up in value that's nice but not my goal.    

It's not for profit. Commodities are a hedge against inflation. Gold was $200 an ounce 30 years ago. Current market is $2,400.00 which averages out to 40% gain a year or 1,200% gain over 30 years. If gold is worth 12X more that means a dollar is worth 12X less. Or if you follow Silver it is roughly 30X what is was in the 50's. and hit 40X recently. that means a dollar then is worth 2.5% of what it was. The point of buying in at a 70% cost is if I have to liquidate immediately, I would not incur a loss as most would if they had used a dealer or agent to buy and sell their bullion. Remember this is long term and with the amount of silver and gold needs increasing to increase technology such as the AI revolution currently going on. Now if you want a good profit scenario... Nvidia stock has netted over 3,000% return the last 5 years. Other technologies coming into the future to eliminate the majority of cars altogether, for instance Horizon Aircraft which is currently contracted with the DOD for R&D to make autonomous eVTOL could be worth quite a small fortune in the future.

[VKurtB]

On 6/8/2024 at 2:45 PM, Gray Electric said:

My concept of collecting has to do with my financial portfolio 5% of which should be commodities and any additional numismatic value is always welcome. Commodities with additional numismatic value hold their value and are not as susceptible to market variations in the prices of platinum, gold, and silver. They are also acceptable forms of an IRA of which $14,400.00 can be invested by a married couple a year and written off on the taxes. As time increases these values increase steadily and those graded 70 are the most highly sought after which is the key to why they hold their value. The collections I am building are for future retirement and the hope is to pass them down to my sons when the time comes. Proof 1986-current 1oz Eagles I am currently completing by tracking down coins at auction and not paying more than 70% of their book value. (I also watch how other auctions are doing and try to get the best price possible by looking at previous sales, book value isn't necessarily what someone is willing to pay so I include that in my evaluation well before any bidding.) For instance, a the 1995-W 1 oz eagle in PF70 is worth 20K in the price guide and retail pretty much agrees with a range of 20k for a standard label & 33k for a signed Mercanti label, lowest I've seen one sell for recently is $8K so i won't pay a penny over that which I figure as a instant financial portfolio gain of 150% on my purchase.

Here is an example on my eagles for instance.

Category	Invested	Value
U.S. Silver Eagle Proof 70 set	$9,166.94	$15,840.00

Purchased above consists of all proof, reverse, and enhanced 1 oz silver eagles graded PF70 from 1986-current. Current goal is complete this set 100% first although I have gotten a tad offtrack with great buys here and there that just couldn't be passed up. (I own 25 of 2021 tesla dinars graded MS70, retail value $150. Purchased all at an average of $80 each making a deal with a few people to take lots versus 1. So $2K invested on those 25 Tesla coins with a retail value of $3,750.00) In 20-30 years all values will increase without ever incurring a loss.  

I also purchased this year a 1 oz proof Gold Buffalo PF70, 1 oz proof Gold Eagles PF70 and for fun I am building a set of all dinars 2018-current depicting Nikola Tesla as I am a fan.

My personal ratio of the annual investment goal is 1 oz Platinum (Bar form this year), 2 oz Gold (Proof 70 1 oz American Eagle and Buffalo), 200 oz Silver (100oz in 10 oz bars and 100 oz in numismatic coin mostly PF70 1 oz American Eagles) 

Wait until you attempt to sell and you find nobody is offering over melt for your PF70 and MS70 coins. 

[Gray Electric]

On 6/9/2024 at 9:09 PM, VKurtB said:

Wait until you attempt to sell and you find nobody is offering over melt for your PF70 and MS70 coins. 

Gold and Silver Loans from CFC with NGC | NGC (ngccoin.com) Glad CFC doesn't see it that way if I ever needed a collateral loan.  If I did have to sell immediately, I would auction them on eBay, same way I got them. I'm in for the long haul though and plan to never sell, just hand them down to the kids in a trust when I die in 40+ years. I have plenty of other investments anyway, commodities are only 5% of the portfolio. Nvidia stock made me a 30% gain the last 3 weeks alone, up 3,000% since 2021 and in the running to knock apple and microsoft of their respective market cap ladders. It just split and is estimated to jump by another 30-40% by September, so I'll let that investment keep growing while Nvidia has the AI revolution on lock down. If I did need to liquidate commodities when I get old, I'd absolutely take melt in 30 years when gold is over $10k an ounce and silver breaks $100. Remember when gold was under $300 an ounce 20-25 years ago. It's 8X that now. Lol. I see Elon Musk has a large portfolio going here worth over 27 million points, he has to be X1X1X1, makes sense with SpaceX xAI and all the other X companies he's privately started. 

[VKurtB]

On 6/10/2024 at 12:16 AM, Gray Electric said:

Gold and Silver Loans from CFC with NGC | NGC (ngccoin.com) Glad CFC doesn't see it that way if I ever needed a collateral loan.  If I did have to sell immediately, I would auction them on eBay, same way I got them. I'm in for the long haul though and plan to never sell, just hand them down to the kids in a trust when I die in 40+ years. I have plenty of other investments anyway, commodities are only 5% of the portfolio. Nvidia stock made me a 30% gain the last 3 weeks alone, up 3,000% since 2021 and in the running to knock apple and microsoft of their respective market cap ladders. It just split and is estimated to jump by another 30-40% by September, so I'll let that investment keep growing while Nvidia has the AI revolution on lock down. If I did need to liquidate commodities when I get old, I'd absolutely take melt in 30 years when gold is over $10k an ounce and silver breaks $100. Remember when gold was under $300 an ounce 20-25 years ago. It's 8X that now. Lol. I see Elon Musk has a large portfolio going here worth over 27 million points, he has to be X1X1X1, makes sense with SpaceX xAI and all the other X companies he's privately started. 

Yes I know. Nvidia, Apple, and Microsoft are ALL in my portfolio. What is NOT in my portfolio are ANY commodities. Zero. The closest thing to it is a Mexican fund that has a high exposure to equities that are natural resource heavy.

[Gray Electric]

On 6/9/2024 at 10:58 PM, VKurtB said:

Yes I know. Nvidia, Apple, and Microsoft are ALL in my portfolio. What is NOT in my portfolio are ANY commodities. Zero. The closest thing to it is a Mexican fund that has a high exposure to equities that are natural resource heavy.

I'm always exposed to commodities, being an electrician copper is always on hand. Many times in my youth I've been in a pinch and my stock pile of copper scrap has always saved the day. I cashed out 1,200 lbs of scrap accumulated over several months earlier this year. Copper melt was at $3.60 per lb then up from $1.70 when I scrapped out the previous year. Lately been hovering in the high $4 low $5 range. Had I known I would of held a little longer, but I've only recently begun to follow the market, I just know the variations of scrap copper prices over the last 30 years from experience, I'm 2nd gen so i used to help my dad scrap leftover copper as a kid. I remember getting 17 cents a pound 25-30 years ago in my early teens and when a roll of 12/3 romex was $15-$20 now its $200-$250. You know the cost of wire tripled shortly after covid hit, the old stock items were 1/3 the cost of new... Anyway, for me the customer pays for all the wire, so scrap is just bonus $$$ not figured into project costs or overhead. 

[VKurtB]

On 6/10/2024 at 7:54 AM, Gray Electric said:

I'm always exposed to commodities, being an electrician copper is always on hand. Many times in my youth I've been in a pinch and my stock pile of copper scrap has always saved the day. I cashed out 1,200 lbs of scrap accumulated over several months earlier this year. Copper melt was at $3.60 per lb then up from $1.70 when I scrapped out the previous year. Lately been hovering in the high $4 low $5 range. Had I known I would of held a little longer, but I've only recently begun to follow the market, I just know the variations of scrap copper prices over the last 30 years from experience, I'm 2nd gen so i used to help my dad scrap leftover copper as a kid. I remember getting 17 cents a pound 25-30 years ago in my early teens and when a roll of 12/3 romex was $15-$20 now its $200-$250. You know the cost of wire tripled shortly after covid hit, the old stock items were 1/3 the cost of new... Anyway, for me the customer pays for all the wire, so scrap is just bonus $$$ not figured into project costs or overhead. 

And I spent 30+ years in the photo lab business. Our recovered scrap was silver.

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/10/2024 at 1:16 AM, Gray Electric said:

.... I see Elon Musk has a large portfolio going here worth over 27 million points, he has to be X1X1X1, makes sense with SpaceX xAI and all the other X companies he's privately started. 

Interesting.  I had XIXIXI pegged as an anonymous blue whale and thought his User moniker was a series of Roman numerals, XI XI XI, or 11 11 11, or simply six ones: 111111. But your deduction sounds more plausible.  

[powermad5000]

On 6/9/2024 at 11:09 PM, VKurtB said:

Wait until you attempt to sell and you find nobody is offering over melt for your PF70 and MS70 coins.

I was going to say this after reading the invested value versus the guide projected value.

A dealer will say, "Let me get out my Greysheet."  Annnddd, then it begins................

Unless you can find a private buyer who will give you price guide values, I don't think this going to work the intended way. I am even aware of this on my non bullion collection. I know what I want it to be worth, but the reality is when it comes time to sell, expect disappointment.

[J P M]

On 6/16/2024 at 11:55 PM, powermad5000 said:

I was going to say this after reading the invested value versus the guide projected value.

A dealer will say, "Let me get out my Greysheet."  Annnddd, then it begins................

Unless you can find a private buyer who will give you price guide values, I don't think this going to work the intended way. I am even aware of this on my non bullion collection. I know what I want it to be worth, but the reality is when it comes time to sell, expect disappointment.

The Graysheet is the beginning of the loss, then figure in the dealer's markup he needs to make, and you are back to lowball or melt price. Auction overbidding may get you a better price but no guaranty. 

[Gray Electric]

On 6/17/2024 at 4:14 AM, J P M said:

The Graysheet is the beginning of the loss, then figure in the dealer's markup he needs to make, and you are back to lowball or melt price. Auction overbidding may get you a better price but no guaranty. 

Agree! I did buy all these at auction on eBay and kept my highest bid at 70% of book value and of course checked actual sale prices as well. I figure worst case if I had to liquidate immediately, I would expect a loss of no more than 13%-15% which 13% is eBays fee for the sale.  I've almost completed the entire competition proof eagle set by strictly buying at auction. Currently I'm going after a 2019-S, lowest I've seen it sell at auction is 1,800.00 so I will not pay a dime over that. Typical sell on that particular coin in a PF70 is roughly 2,100+. So, if I sold at 2,100 and after paying commission and shipping, I might make $50 or perhaps lose $50. Trying to play it as safe as possible and not overpay. Hopefully this method will serve me well if I ever do need to sell. Really I just wanted to complete the set and lock it up for 30 years.     

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/16/2024 at 11:55 PM, powermad5000 said:

.... I know what I want it to be worth, but the reality is when it comes time to sell, expect disappointment.

To all those to whom I have gifted coins... I would rather engage in acts of random kindness and bring joy to other people's lives then accept a payment from a seller that is nowhere near what I know I should get.

There is a great deal of time and space devoted to acquisitions on the Forum, but precious little on the other side of the "coin"... selling.

[J P M]

On 6/17/2024 at 8:31 AM, Gray Electric said:

Agree! I did buy all these at auction on eBay and kept my highest bid at 70% of book value and of course checked actual sale prices as well. I figure worst case if I had to liquidate immediately, I would expect a loss of no more than 13%-15% which 13% is eBays fee for the sale.  I've almost completed the entire competition proof eagle set by strictly buying at auction. Currently I'm going after a 2019-S, lowest I've seen it sell at auction is 1,800.00 so I will not pay a dime over that. Typical sell on that particular coin in a PF70 is roughly 2,100+. So, if I sold at 2,100 and after paying commission and shipping, I might make $50 or perhaps lose $50. Trying to play it as safe as possible and not overpay. Hopefully this method will serve me well if I ever do need to sell. Really I just wanted to complete the set and lock it up for 30 years.     

I will never sell my junky coins anyway, but I always expect a loss of 50% that is why on almost all my purchases I bid out at 33% of retail. Most of the time I will walk away unless it is that (Crazy Coin) that are imposable to get at that price. 

[powermad5000]

On 6/17/2024 at 7:31 AM, Gray Electric said:

Trying to play it as safe as possible and not overpay. Hopefully this method will serve me well if I ever do need to sell. Really I just wanted to complete the set and lock it up for 30 years.

This is something we all try to do, but when it comes time to sell, unless you are going to sell to private collectors who will pay full FMV, that 13% eBay takes that you mention is just the tip of what you will lose. A dealer will literally give you 50% FMV or even less. At the last show I went to, on a slab for slabs plus cash trade with a dealer (my 4 slabs plus some cash for his one slab), I had to pull back and eliminate one of the slabs from the deal because his offer on it was literally 2/3 or 66% off FMV. And none of the trade slabs I had were "junk" or impaired. All were straight graded and all were bright white silver. I've played the slab plus cash game for years with dealers but the sheer level of robbery taking place at that table was the LAST time I involve a dealer in ANY of my trade or sell transactions. You can try the eBay route, but just know, I sell on there and some slabs have been in my listings for YEARS before actually selling. Also, most buyers on there want a deal which you probably won't be willing to give.

You would be best to lock these up for the next 30 years. Only thing is they are bullion and not rare coinage, and their value might not hold for that long, as would a classic issue old coin might. You might have to have an honest conversation with yourself about bullion as an investment. Just because spot metal price of silver goes up, I have seen some graded ASE's lose interest with collectors and drop to below spot price. It can happen. Think 30 years from now, is there still going to be a collector base interested in paying a lot for a common 2022 ASE???

I am only saying this as I collect "classic" US coinage but I still do not consider it an investment. And very rarely have I ever sold a slabbed and graded specimen for a profit. Very rarely.