Trade dollar variety book - update 0

[RWB]

A correspondent asked about the long-rumored Trade dollar die variety book status. As far as I've been told, nothing has happened. The publication project I'd tried to assemble did not work because no one had a complete list, and several expert collectors refused to cooperate with one another.

[Henri Charriere]

On 5/8/2024 at 4:06 PM, RWB said:

....The publication project....did not work because no one had a complete list, and several expert collectors refused to cooperate with one another.

Positively shameful!

[VKurtB]

On 5/8/2024 at 3:06 PM, RWB said:

several expert collectors refused to cooperate with one another.

Hardly a surprising outcome. This is frankly the way this hobby rolls. Too many people assume everyone wants to help others and share information when nothing could be further from the truth. 

Edited May 8 by VKurtB

[zadok]

On 5/8/2024 at 4:57 PM, VKurtB said:

Hardly a surprising outcome. This is frankly the way this hobby rolls. Too many people assume everyone wants to help others and share information when nothing could be further from the truth. 

...same way all hobbies roll, not necessary a bad thing nor a good thing...not all discoveries need to or have to be shared for various reasons...individual hasnt finished looking for unreported varieties, maybe just likes his/her privacy, perhaps working on their own project, maybe just doesnt like the other person for good reason...not all knowledge has to be shared...i know some of the research i have assembled n unpublished  will be very selectively shared n only when im ready to do so...the hobby can be social but doesnt have to be socialistic....

[VKurtB]

On 5/8/2024 at 4:15 PM, zadok said:

...same way all hobbies roll, not necessary a bad thing nor a good thing...not all discoveries need to or have to be shared for various reasons...individual hasnt finished looking for unreported varieties, maybe just likes his/her privacy, perhaps working on their own project, maybe just doesnt like the other person for good reason...not all knowledge has to be shared...i know some of the research i have assembled n unpublished  will be very selectively shared n only when im ready to do so...the hobby can be social but doesnt have to be socialistic....

Aaaaaaaaaaaaa-men!!!!

[RWB]

On 5/8/2024 at 5:20 PM, VKurtB said:

Aaaaaaaaaaaaa-men!!!!

Well, I remain optimistic - guardedly. (...or should that be naively?)

 

[VKurtB]

On 5/8/2024 at 4:34 PM, RWB said:

Well, I remain optimistic - guardedly. (...or should that be naively?)

 

Both may be true.

[powermad5000]

As a fan of this series, I wouldn't mind a comprehensive book regarding the varieties throughout.

I do note more often than not, that a person will refuse to share information if they think the person they are going to share it with will profit off of the reveal of the information, instead of the holder of such information making their own profit off of said, or at least getting a cut of the profit. Money makes the world go round.

[Henri Charriere]

On 5/8/2024 at 5:34 PM, RWB said:

Well, I remain optimistic - guardedly. (...or should that be naively?)

 

No. Stop it!  In the interests of broadening the body of knowledge everyone with a piece of the jigsaw puzzle should join in making a truly collaborative effort.

I was taught that all through my formal years of schooling.

A member inquired about an obscure token used in a correctional institution that had long been decommissioned. I wrote the Michigan Department of Correction directly and, much to my surprise, they had no historical repository -- or for that matter, institutional memory.  But the elusive token in unknown numbers is still out there.

A leading lawmaker visiting a foreign land, for unexplained reasons, lacked identification with his signature. An aide saved the day with quick thinking, reached into his wallet and pulled out a one-dollar bill with his John Hancock which was accepted without question.

When Governor Mario Cuomo arrived at an upstate juvenile institution with an entourage in an official state chopper landing on institutional grounds, most anyone would have admitted him on the strength of the unusual circumstances and instant face recognition.  Not the Principal Keeper who demanded to see his ID. The governor was not offended in the least. Professional courtesy must acquiesce to proper procedure.

[Henri Charriere]

On 5/8/2024 at 5:15 PM, zadok said:

...same way all hobbies roll, not necessary a bad thing nor a good thing...not all discoveries need to or have to be shared for various reasons...individual hasnt finished looking for unreported varieties, maybe just likes his/her privacy, perhaps working on their own project, maybe just doesnt like the other person for good reason...not all knowledge has to be shared...i know some of the research i have assembled n unpublished  will be very selectively shared n only when im ready to do so...the hobby can be social but doesnt have to be socialistic....

It is this type of unwarranted fear bordering on paranoia that has set back progress in human endeavors forever... Your autobiography, quite frankly, sounds repetitious and boring.  Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Chief navigator to Columbus: "Maybe we ought not to...That's uncharted territory... We might fall off the edge of the Earth!"  "Burn me at the stake!  I tell you my observations clearly indicate the Earth revolves around the sun!. But that's heresy!"

Young lad:  "Is this a copper penny (sic)?  Mint Director: "No 1943 cents were authorized for production!  Now get away from me kid, you bother me."

Coin collectors?  What a bunch of milk cows!

[zadok]

On 5/9/2024 at 8:59 AM, Henri Charriere said:

It is this type of unwarranted fear bordering on paranoia that has set back progress in human endeavors forever... Your autobiography, quite frankly, sounds repetitious and boring.  Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Chief navigator to Columbus: "Maybe we ought not to...That's uncharted territory... We might fall off the edge of the Earth!"  "Burn me at the stake!  I tell you my observations clearly indicate the Earth revolves around the sun!. But that's heresy!"

Young lad:  "Is this a copper penny (sic)?  Mint Director: "No 1943 cents were authorized for production!  Now get away from me kid, you bother me."

Coin collectors?  What a bunch of milk cows!

...n the downward spiral continues...there surely is a help line there in east harlem....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/8/2024 at 4:06 PM, RWB said:

several expert collectors refused to cooperate with one another.

This information is not like the nuclear codes to the Black Box.....folks REALLY have to stop thinking this information will destroy their business or sources of information or whatever.

Same secrecy with Hoards and incoming supplies of coins.

 

[zadok]

On 5/9/2024 at 11:22 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

This information is not like the nuclear codes to the Black Box.....folks REALLY have to stop thinking this information will destroy their business or sources of information or whatever.

Same secrecy with Hoards and incoming supplies of coins.

 

...its simple...folks just dont need to know everything there is to know bout the availability or sources of coins...numismatics is not a community help program....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/9/2024 at 11:33 AM, zadok said:

...its simple...folks just dont need to know everything there is to know bout the availability or sources of coins...numismatics is not a community help program....

True....but information and story-telling are important parts of this hobby.  It's the reason I do tons of reading on coins.  I LOVE reading about the background story. 

Don't folks want the dirt behind the making of their famous movies or TV series...the problems that went on....the changes in casts that almost happened....the not-then famous director or producer who almost got fired by the studio...etc...etc.

I guess I'm an outlier......

[RWB]

On 5/8/2024 at 8:03 PM, powermad5000 said:

As a fan of this series, I wouldn't mind a comprehensive book regarding the varieties throughout.

I do note more often than not, that a person will refuse to share information if they think the person they are going to share it with will profit off of the reveal of the information, instead of the holder of such information making their own profit off of said, or at least getting a cut of the profit. Money makes the world go round.

The plan proposed to the primary group of Trade dollar variety experts was to consolidate everyone's work into two publications:

#1 a Printed book with background information and approx the 100-150 most readily identified varieties (photos, details, etc.). This would consolidate and correct John Willem's background material and add die varieties.

#2 an Internet database similar to the VAMworld grid for Morgan and Peace dollars. This would list everything, but exclude the mess of die states, sub-varieties and other stiff that clogs the VAM material. The core experts would maintain this and agree to additions and removals. It might also include pricing.

 

[zadok]

On 5/9/2024 at 11:36 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

True....but information and story-telling are important parts of this hobby.  It's the reason I do tons of reading on coins.  I LOVE reading about the background story. 

Don't folks want the dirt behind the making of their famous movies or TV series...the problems that went on....the changes in casts that almost happened....the not-then famous director or producer who almost got fired by the studio...etc...etc.

I guess I'm an outlier......

...no, there is a place for chit-chat n feel good stories...that doesnt mean one needs to tell all they know, however....

[Henri Charriere]

On 5/9/2024 at 10:52 AM, zadok said:

...n the downward spiral continues...there surely is a help line there in east harlem....

Q.A.:   Ha! Ha! Ha!  He thought there was plug at the bottom of the.  cesspool!!!...

🐓:  That's okay... We won!... He acknowledged our very existence!... You can't buy that kind of publicity!... Beats a sad emoji any day of the week!... Ah,... collaboration!

[zadok]

On 5/9/2024 at 1:53 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Q.A.:   Ha! Ha! Ha!  He thought there was plug at the bottom of the.  cesspool!!!...

🐓:  That's okay... We won!... He acknowledged our very existence!... You can't buy that kind of publicity!... Beats a sad emoji any day of the week!... Ah,... collaboration!

...one has to acknowledge even doggie doo-doo on ones shoe lest one soil everything one treads upon even if its more doo-doo...sometimes one just buys a new pair of shoes....

[VKurtB]

On 5/10/2024 at 11:13 AM, zadok said:

...one has to acknowledge even doggie doo-doo on ones shoe lest one soil everything one treads upon even if its more doo-doo...sometimes one just buys a new pair of shoes....

Not here. Dogs run free all over this town. If I were to replace every befouled shoe, my Social Security would be wiped out. 

[VKurtB]

On 5/9/2024 at 12:53 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Q.A.:   Ha! Ha! Ha!  He thought there was plug at the bottom of the.  cesspool!!!...

🐓:  That's okay... We won!... He acknowledged our very existence!... You can't buy that kind of publicity!... Beats a sad emoji any day of the week!... Ah,... collaboration!

Henri, seriously. I have spent YEARS among serious collectors. Not here in Alabama; in Lancaster, PA. Until they got to know you well, and knew what your intentions were, they were all UNBELIEVABLY secretive about their collections and their knowledge. One member, the late great John Eshbach, had accomplished an unbelievable collection. He had assembled a COMPLETE SET of 4 dollar gold Stellas during his lifetime and had sold it, at magnificent profit. I never knew until after he had died. He was the mentor who taught me how to exhibit and how to judge exhibits. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/10/2024 at 5:56 PM, VKurtB said:

He had assembled a COMPLETE SET of 4 dollar gold Stellas during his lifetime and had sold it, at magnificent profit. I never knew until after he had died. He was the mentor who taught me how to exhibit and how to judge exhibits. 

You never discussed coin collecting or what HE collected even though he taught you about exhibitions and judging exhibitions ? 

[World Colonial]

On 5/9/2024 at 11:22 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

This information is not like the nuclear codes to the Black Box.....folks REALLY have to stop thinking this information will destroy their business or sources of information or whatever.

Same secrecy with Hoards and incoming supplies of coins.

 

I just had someone on the PCGS Message Boards PM me about where I've bought my coins.  It's public knowledge but they can make the same effort to find it I did.  Why I would I tell anyone everything I know about my collecting interest so they can use it to buy the coins first?

With Trade dollars, yes, I'd guess it's because they want to cherry pick the rarer varieties, maybe in multiple.  I don't think a die variety reference makes much difference measured by the potential impact of increasing the collector base.  I doubt there are actually that many who are interested in buying 100-150 varieties due to a lack of interest, potential cost, and availability.  It's not a series with a particularly high preference.  Noticeably higher as a type versus a series, according to the Heritage data.

[RWB]

The proposed Trade dollar book and reference was intended as a long term consolidated repository. The proportion of coin collectors specializing in this design is, as noted above, very small. This means there is no profit potential in the information - except for buying/selling coins.

[VKurtB]

On 5/10/2024 at 11:27 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

You never discussed coin collecting or what HE collected even though he taught you about exhibitions and judging exhibitions ? 

Exactly.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/11/2024 at 7:48 AM, World Colonial said:

I just had someone on the PCGS Message Boards PM me about where I've bought my coins.  It's public knowledge but they can make the same effort to find it I did.  Why I would I tell anyone everything I know about my collecting interest so they can use it to buy the coins first?  With Trade dollars, yes, I'd guess it's because they want to cherry pick the rarer varieties, maybe in multiple.  I don't think a die variety reference makes much difference measured by the potential impact of increasing the collector base.  I doubt there are actually that many who are interested in buying 100-150 varieties due to a lack of interest, potential cost, and availability.  It's not a series with a particularly high preference.  Noticeably higher as a type versus a series, according to the Heritage data.

If you have a CONFIDENTIAL source and are actively buying hard-to-get coins, I get the secrecy angle.

But does Ron Gillio REALLY need to maintain secrecy about the exact origins of the 1908 No Motto Saint Hoard ?  It's been 28 years since then, I think the market had adjusted price-wise.   Ditto for any secrets regarding the SSCA.

That's my point.  I certainly don't expect folks to give out specific real-time sources of information if they are into competitive registry sets or trying to obtain a hard-to-get coin.  I'm just talking about filling in the blanks on stuff we are trying to ascertain for the historical record.

[zadok]

On 5/13/2024 at 12:11 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

If you have a CONFIDENTIAL source and are actively buying hard-to-get coins, I get the secrecy angle.

But does Ron Gillio REALLY need to maintain secrecy about the exact origins of the 1908 No Motto Saint Hoard ?  It's been 28 years since then, I think the market had adjusted price-wise.   Ditto for any secrets regarding the SSCA.

That's my point.  I certainly don't expect folks to give out specific real-time sources of information if they are into competitive registry sets or trying to obtain a hard-to-get coin.  I'm just talking about filling in the blanks on stuff we are trying to ascertain for the historical record.

...why do u think any of those "blanks" r important?...how would any of that information add anything to the individual collector who mite want to buy or not buy one of those coins?...its like wanting to know what ur next door neighbor is doing about anything....

[olympicsos]

On 5/8/2024 at 4:57 PM, VKurtB said:

Hardly a surprising outcome. This is frankly the way this hobby rolls. Too many people assume everyone wants to help others and share information when nothing could be further from the truth. 

Some series more than others. I find that 20th century gold collectors tend to be out here and share stuff, same with Barber collectors, on the other hand Bust Half collectors seem to be more insular. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/11/2024 at 11:43 AM, RWB said:

The proposed Trade dollar book and reference was intended as a long term consolidated repository. The proportion of coin collectors specializing in this design is, as noted above, very small. This means there is no profit potential in the information - except for buying/selling coins.

I see more people talking about/mentioning Trade Dollars here and ATS than talking about Saints. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/13/2024 at 8:25 AM, zadok said:

...why do u think any of those "blanks" r important?...how would any of that information add anything to the individual collector who mite want to buy or not buy one of those coins?...its like wanting to know what ur next door neighbor is doing about anything....

I think the narratives and stories and history behind our coins is part of the allure.  I'm interested in history, so maybe it's just me.

Isn't that why so many non-coin collectors ended up buying an SSCA coin ?  For the history...the story ?  

Maybe if I had more $$$ to be buying I'd be spending less time reading. 

[VKurtB]

On 5/13/2024 at 10:20 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I see more people talking about/mentioning Trade Dollars here and ATS than talking about Saints. 

Saints really are NOT a mainstream collector’s series. You are kinda unicorn-y.