Errorists Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 (edited) Finned Rim? Struck out of collar? PF-70 UCAM? Edited February 25 by Errorists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 Finned rim? not enough starch in the collar? ... I will leave to others to debate, on the merits. Insofar as bestowing a formal grade, only a recognized TPGS is authorized to do so. Your appraisal cannot trump theirs. This, I believe, is the first time I have seen a proof so disabled. Surely, you do not suggest a defect in workmanship should be entitled to a premium? powermad5000 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandon Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 This quarter appears to have been struck from a severely misaligned obverse die and rather unusual for a proof coin that should have been subject to careful inspection. I have a similar looking 1988-P quarter with the same "finned" high rim on part of the affected side but without the loose strip of metal. Do you have this coin or is it being offered for sale online? It isn't possible to offer an opinion as to the coin's grade without in-person inspection, especially when the choice is between "69" and "70". powermad5000 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errorists Posted February 25 Author Share Posted February 25 On 2/24/2024 at 8:12 PM, Sandon said: This quarter appears to have been struck from a severely misaligned obverse die and rather unusual for a proof coin that should have been subject to careful inspection. I have a similar looking 1988-P quarter with the same "finned" high rim on part of the affected side but without the loose strip of metal. Do you have this coin or is it being offered for sale online? It isn't possible to offer an opinion as to the coin's grade without in-person inspection, especially when the choice is between "69" and "70". So it's a keeper and not a skipper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandon Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 On 2/24/2024 at 9:18 PM, Errorists said: So it's a keeper and not a skipper? It's hard for me to say, as I don't collect this sort of coin. If it is being offered for sale, it depends whether you think it is worth the price. Coins struck from misaligned dies generally aren't worth much if any premium, but the severity of the misalignment, the loose strip of metal, and especially the fact that it is a proof striking add interest. Let's see what some of the other forum members think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errorists Posted February 25 Author Share Posted February 25 On 2/24/2024 at 9:05 PM, Sandon said: It's hard for me to say, as I don't collect this sort of coin. If it is being offered for sale, it depends whether you think it is worth the price. Coins struck from misaligned dies generally aren't worth much if any premium, but the severity of the misalignment, the loose strip of metal, and especially the fact that it is a proof striking add interest. Let's see what some of the other forum members think. Makes me wonder why it wasn't waffled? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 On 2/24/2024 at 10:05 PM, Sandon said: Let's see what some of the other forum members think. If I had purchased it directly from the Mint, I would return it and ask for a refund. I would not care how much the damaged coin is worth. On the other hand, if I had purchased it privately, depending on the known number of other quarters that were minted bearing this damage, I would affix a catchy name to it and sell it on Etsy for $25,000, OBO, as a prime example of Mint Inspector Incompetency, and Truth, Justice and the American Way gone awry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errorists Posted February 25 Author Share Posted February 25 On 2/25/2024 at 7:51 AM, Henri Charriere said: If I had purchased it directly from the Mint, I would return it and ask for a refund. I would not care how much the damaged coin is worth. On the other hand, if I had purchased it privately, depending on the known number of other quarters that were minted bearing this damage, I would affix a catchy name to it and sell it on Etsy for $25,000, OBO, as a prime example of Mint Inspector Incompetency, and Truth, Justice and the American Way gone awry. Will AI prevent such coins from escaping the mint? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zadok Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 On 2/24/2024 at 10:05 PM, Sandon said: It's hard for me to say, as I don't collect this sort of coin. If it is being offered for sale, it depends whether you think it is worth the price. Coins struck from misaligned dies generally aren't worth much if any premium, but the severity of the misalignment, the loose strip of metal, and especially the fact that it is a proof striking add interest. Let's see what some of the other forum members think. ...agree, the error itself is relatively common with n with out the finned strip n does not command a big premium, the fact that it escaped notice as a proof adds more interest n collectability.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errorists Posted February 25 Author Share Posted February 25 On 2/25/2024 at 9:32 AM, zadok said: ...agree, the error itself is relatively common with n with out the finned strip n does not command a big premium, the fact that it escaped notice as a proof adds more interest n collectability.... More like a Partial Collar then a MAD error. Being the coin mintage is less then 500k I doubt very many like this were struck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandon Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 A coin with a reeded edge that was struck with a partial collar would have a portion of its edge without reeding, in this case the portion of the edge nearest the reverse. See https://www.error-ref.com/?s=partial+collar. This coin appears to have the entire edge reeded. It would be helpful to have a photo of the entire edge adjacent to the "finned" area. I still think that the anomaly is most likely the result of a misaligned (angled) obverse die. zadok 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errorists Posted February 25 Author Share Posted February 25 On 2/25/2024 at 1:57 PM, Sandon said: A coin with a reeded edge that was struck with a partial collar would have a portion of its edge without reeding, in this case the portion of the edge nearest the reverse. See https://www.error-ref.com/?s=partial+collar. This coin appears to have the entire edge reeded. It would be helpful to have a photo of the entire edge adjacent to the "finned" area. I still think that the anomaly is most likely the result of a misaligned (angled) obverse die. That's what the coin looks like where the thin reeded strip is. Looks like the reading was sheared off when the die struck it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zadok Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 On 2/25/2024 at 1:32 PM, Errorists said: More like a Partial Collar then a MAD error. Being the coin mintage is less then 500k I doubt very many like this were struck. ...prob true, but also prob not a great number of serious collectors for these as well, but interesting.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errorists Posted February 25 Author Share Posted February 25 On 2/25/2024 at 3:50 PM, zadok said: ...prob true, but also prob not a great number of serious collectors for these as well, but interesting.... Looks somewhat elliptical,also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errorists Posted February 26 Author Share Posted February 26 A few closer pics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 Speaking strictly for myself, I WANT MY MONEY BACK! And the coin isn't even mine. 🤣 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errorists Posted February 26 Author Share Posted February 26 Is it possible the proof planchet was elliptical before it was struck? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandon Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 I see no indication that the planchet was "elliptical". The collar appears to have been normally deployed around the entire edge of the coin, as the reeding runs evenly around the edge. I continue to believe that the raised area or "fin" of metal was created by pressure from the misalignment of the die and that the upper part of this thin piece of metal subsequently broke and became partly detached. I suggest that you might want to show your photos of this coin to CONECA and/or Sullivan Numismatics for an expert opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errorists Posted February 27 Author Share Posted February 27 (edited) On 2/26/2024 at 8:40 PM, Sandon said: I see no indication that the planchet was "elliptical". The collar appears to have been normally deployed around the entire edge of the coin, as the reeding runs evenly around the edge. I continue to believe that the raised area or "fin" of metal was created by pressure from the misalignment of the die and that the upper part of this thin piece of metal subsequently broke and became partly detached. I suggest that you might want to show your photos of this coin to CONECA and/or Sullivan Numismatics for an expert opinion. Yeah. They are leaning towards a Partial Collar. I noticed they didn't say Tilted Partial Collar. Edited February 27 by Errorists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powermad5000 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 I would say this would result from a partial collar as it's shape seems not exactly round (evidenced as well in the photo of the reverse) but the coin still retains its reeded edge around the coin. I note the reeding near the main defect looks to be a little "weak" which would be in line with a partial collar. How this coin got out from the Mint as a proof which should have commanded more scrutiny. I would think amongst error collectors with it being a proof that should not have this kind of defect that this coin would gain some substantial premium, how much could not be determined as its final gavel price would be whatever error collectors would bid it up to. I, like @Henri Charriere, also have never seen a proof with such a defect. Henri Charriere 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errorists Posted February 27 Author Share Posted February 27 On 2/27/2024 at 4:11 PM, powermad5000 said: I would say this would result from a partial collar as it's shape seems not exactly round (evidenced as well in the photo of the reverse) but the coin still retains its reeded edge around the coin. I note the reeding near the main defect looks to be a little "weak" which would be in line with a partial collar. How this coin got out from the Mint as a proof which should have commanded more scrutiny. I would think amongst error collectors with it being a proof that should not have this kind of defect that this coin would gain some substantial premium, how much could not be determined as its final gavel price would be whatever error collectors would bid it up to. I, like @Henri Charriere, also have never seen a proof with such a defect. Perhaps, there is something different in proof collars that allows this to occur when malfunctions occur as opposed to business stuck coin collars when they malfunction??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 On 2/27/2024 at 6:00 PM, Errorists said: Perhaps, there is something different in proof collars that allows this to occur when malfunctions occur as opposed to business stuck coin collars when they malfunction??? Highly unlikely. The proofs are made to exacting standards and specifications. The question is where were the Mint inspectors? powermad5000 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errorists Posted February 28 Author Share Posted February 28 On 2/27/2024 at 6:29 PM, Henri Charriere said: Highly unlikely. The proofs are made to exacting standards and specifications. The question is where were the Mint Any difference between the proof collars and business strike collars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 On 2/27/2024 at 7:46 PM, Errorists said: Any difference between the proof collars and business strike collars? Here's an honest, forthright answer you rarely encounter on the Forum: I DO NOT KNOW. I would imagine coinage struck as Proofs are held to a higher standard. If they were not, it would have an adverse ripple effect on sales. Bear in mind, these are products minted for collectors, not circulation. Errorists 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errorists Posted February 28 Author Share Posted February 28 On 2/27/2024 at 7:00 PM, Henri Charriere said: Here's an honest, forthright answer you rarely encounter on the Forum: I DO NOT KNOW. I would imagine coinage struck as Proofs are held to a higher standard. If they were not, it would have an adverse ripple effect on sales. Bear in mind, these are products minted for collectors, not circulation. Anyone here know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powermad5000 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 I also do not know for sure but I would have to say there is no difference in the actual collar. A quarter is a quarter. A proof and a business strike are the same size. I don't see the Mint having proof collars and business collars as that would just cost the mint more money to accomplish the same thing during striking, but I cannot say that 100% for sure. What I do wonder, however, as I have thought about this a little today is if the collar possibly broke after the first strike seeing proofs are struck more than once for the best quality image??? Even still, I have the same question as @Henri Charriere in that where was the Mint inspector/employee that allowed a proof with that condition to exit the Mint as is. Henri Charriere and Errorists 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errorists Posted February 28 Author Share Posted February 28 Where's my buddy Fred Weinberg when you need him? Henri Charriere 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandon Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 I found the 1988-P quarter that I think is similar to this one and posted a separate topic about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errorists Posted February 28 Author Share Posted February 28 On 2/27/2024 at 11:30 PM, Sandon said: I found the 1988-P quarter that I think is similar to this one and posted a separate topic about it. Cool I'll check ✔ it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J P M Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 Nice find, even the reverse has a bit of a fin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
