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1964
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Started by Midwest Dozer,

53 posts in this topic

Sandon

Sandon

Posted
Posted

   Please review the following recent thread regarding purported 1964 "SMS" half dollars (and other denominations):

   I will repeat the PCGS statement that the so-called "SMS" or "special strike" coins "contain a smooth satin like appearance with the rims being very square and sharp. There are die polishing lines throughout the coins' surfaces. These coins also tend to lack contact marks unlike business strike coins, indicating that they were struck and handled under extreme care."   https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1964-50c-sms/6844 (Emphasis added.)

   Although you have not posted photos of either entire side of your coin, as we request and which might help, the close-ups indicate a normal bright luster that is not at all satiny and numerous surface abrasions. The grading services will apparently not authenticate purported 1964 "SMS" coins through die polish marks or other "die markers" alone, and it appears that the only pieces likely to pass muster would have to be provenanced to the 1993 Stacks auction where they were first offered.  Although the coins' origin is mysterious, with some researchers now believing that they are simply early strikes from new dies and nothing special, they all appear to have come from a specific source and are not found among regular 1964 dated coins. Where did yours come from?

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RWB

RWB

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Posted

No such thing as "1964 Special Mint Set" coins. The sets were all produced in 1965-67 with coins of those dates. Money-grabbing claims to the contrary, it's simply a fraud perpetrated by ignorance and laziness...oh, and of course, GREED.

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Coinbuf

Coinbuf

Posted
Posted
On 2/10/2024 at 7:28 PM, Midwest Dozer said:

and since i couldnt get one person to respond to a simple question i put it up and out on both sites to get peoples opinion

i dont think im doing anything wrong asking people for their  opinions  if i am this isn't america

You are not doing anything wrong except that you won't listen to the opinions that you have received.   Since you won't listen to anyone why don't you just stop wasting time and submit the coin.   While you have only posted this coin here today, (at least under this screen name) you have posted about this coin on the PCGS forum back in July 2021 and then again today, I have no idea how many other forums or social media sites you have been on with this coin.   But back in 2021 and again today on the PCGS forum (and now here) you have been told the facts, since you don't like the answers just stop wasting your time and submit the coin.   We all know what the outcome will be, and I suspect that you also know which is why you haven't done so in the past.

And bty your grammar is atrocious, if you want to be taken seriously then you might at least take the time to write in a professional manor.

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Sandon

Sandon

Posted
Posted
On 2/10/2024 at 7:38 PM, Midwest Dozer said:

so how did the one they found in pocket change pass mustard? [sic, should be "muster", unless the coin was a polite dinner guest]

   I've never heard of a so-called 1964 "SMS" half dollar being found in pocket change, and it does not appear that NGC or PCGS has assigned any a circulated grade. Has it been authenticated, by whom, and what grade did it receive?  From what source did you receive your information about this?

On 2/10/2024 at 9:25 PM, Midwest Dozer said:

they made almost 4 million of these do you really think pcgs got the mintage wrong?

   Of what did they make almost four million?  PCGS is apparently referring to the 3,950,762 mirror surface proofs placed in 1964 proof sets and mistakenly included this figure in the Coinfacts page regarding the so-called "SMS" pieces, of which very few exist. (Check your "Redbook"; this same figure is given for the mintage of each denomination of 1964 proof coin and of 1964 proof sets.) If they had made nearly four million 1964 Kennedy half dollars with the satin finish only found on the so-called "SMS" coins, they wouldn't be rare or valuable anyway. They also couldn't have been struck by a single die pair and wouldn't all have the same "die markers" anyway.

On 2/10/2024 at 9:25 PM, Midwest Dozer said:

did they get every coin and melt them down like congress told them to

  When did Congress tell the mint to melt "them" down? What is your source for that information?

On 2/10/2024 at 7:46 PM, Midwest Dozer said:

those die marks are just like fingerprint no two dies are the same no matter how you try to swing this.. when the obverse die and reverse die marks match 100% then the story is over..

   First of all, you have only shown close-up photos of some portions of your coin and haven't shown how each die polish mark or other feature of your coin that you claim to be a "die marker" matches exactly each such feature on an authenticated so-called "SMS" piece. Moreover, the same dies have been used to strike both proof and circulation strike issues, as happened with some frequency in the nineteenth century or more recently, as in 1956-64, when quarter dies that had been used to strike proofs were then used to strike circulation issues, identified by the "Type B" Washington quarter reverse used for proofs from 1937-64. It is the distinctive, satiny appearance and apparent special handling of the few authenticated so-called "SMS" coins that has been viewed by some as making them valuable, not random die polish marks, the so-called defect in the bottom of the "4", or other "die markers."  

   The NGC Coin Explorer indicates that the "SMS" reference for these pieces as a misnomer and describes them as simply first strikes from new but ordinary dies that were produced for presentation to the Smithsonian, with an unknown level of outside distribution. 1964 50C SP | Coin Explorer | NGC (ngccoin.com), "Description & Analysis" section. The paper that @FlyingAl is preparing will hopefully shed light on the truth regarding these pieces. 

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EagleRJO

EagleRJO

Posted
Posted
On 2/10/2024 at 10:43 PM, Midwest Dozer said:

i know something now that doesnt matter so ok im going to drop it and ill never post one thing about that coin

Just curious what so dramatically changed your mind, because just hours ago you were convinced they were very valuable coins and were being dismissive or rhetorically argumentative about comments that may have suggested otherwise.

Also, since you have been posting about these coins you keep in a safe for so long, have you submitted one for authentication but are unhappy with the results, which would make more sence.

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Henri Charriere

Henri Charriere

Posted
Posted
On 2/10/2024 at 9:43 PM, Coinbuf said:

And bty your grammar is atrocious, if you want to be taken seriously then you might at least take the time to write in a professional manor.

That's manner, 'buf.  "... professional manner."  (thumbsu

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Coinbuf

Coinbuf

Posted
Posted
On 2/11/2024 at 2:56 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

What the hell is it with 20 posts only saying "t" ???? >:(

 

On 2/11/2024 at 2:59 PM, RonnieR131 said:

GoldFinger1969 Glad you said something, I didn't want to ask, thought maybe I wasn't clicking on the correct place to open.  Everyone else seems to know.

The op posted a 1964 half and wanted everyone to confirm that he has an SMS coin.   Once that did not happen he got upset and edited his posts, you guys did not miss much.

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Midwest Dozer

Midwest Dozer

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  • Author
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NGC PRICE GUIDE
NGC CENSUS
AUCTION PRICES REALIZED
NGC REGISTRY SCORE
Find it on eBay
PrAg G VG F VF XF XF+ 50 50+ 53 53+ 55 55+ 58 58+ 60 60+ 61 61+ 62 62+ 63 63+ 64 64+ 65 65+ 66 66+ 67 67+ 68 68+ 69 70
                                                      $37500 $45000 $65000 $85000 $165000 $195000    
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 8 4 1 0 0 0
                                                         

4/25/19 - PCGS
$108000.00Lot# 3760 - HA

9/7/16 - PCGS
$47000.00Lot# 5545 - HA

1/6/10 - PCGS
$16100.00Lot# 2793 - HA

7/30/08 - PCGS
$6037.50Lot# 2704 - HA

View All > 		 

4/28/09 - PCGS
$10350.00Lot# 2929 - HA

12/27/00 - PCGS
$6148.00Lot# 1469 - TT

View All > 		 

5/5/04 - NGC
$9487.50Lot# 7926 - HA

7/26/03 - NGC
$10637.50Lot# 8104 - HA

View All > 		 
37 37 37 37 37 37 37 37 37 37 37 37 38 41 41 41 42 45 46 50 58 76 77 81 83 89 93 102 109 123 136 163 218 330 1,619
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DESCRIPTION & ANALYSIS

Once thought to be prototypes for the Special Mint Set coins of 1965-67, the 1964 Specimen strikes do have a story to tell, but not that one. Starting in the 1950s, possibly dating to the arrival of Vladimir Clain-Steffanelli as curator in 1957, the Smithsonian's National Coin Collection received fresh strikes of each year's coinage through all or most of the 1970s. These were forwarded by the Philadelphia Mint and consisted of ordinary coinage of the type made for circulation, but the dies were fresh and sharp, retaining the satiny fields characteristic of new dies, along the with fine, irregular polishing lines also typical of new currency dies. This distribution was not known to anyone outside of either institution, and when perhaps a couple dozen sets of 1964(P) coins from cent through half dollar came into the market in the early 1990s, their distinctive appearance was noted. These coins brought strong premiums and still do in their rare appearances, but the term Special Mint Set does not apply to them. The obverse is the Normal Hair (non-Accented Hair, only used on proof coins) type, while the reverse is the Type 1 reverse, with a straight G in the FS designer's initials and breaks in rays 11-13 (counting from the left) where they meet stars.

PRICE GUIDE

Click on a price to see historical prices, comparison charts and trends.
 Go to grade  PrAgGVGFVFXF505355586061626364656667686970 
1964 50C SPLast updated 08/16/2022
 
BASE
PrAg G VG F VF XF 50 53 55 58 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70
                                $37500 $65000 $165000    
                                $45000 $85000 $195000    
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