Henri Charriere Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 Just when I thought I had seen it all, something I know not what to make of lands in my In-box... a seller's lising for a 1910 French 20-franc gold rooster I happen to be in desperate need of... with a cruel twist. Certified and encapsulated by NGC, the label reads: 1910 France G20F UNCIRCULATED 6564166-021 Is this someone's idea of a joke? And where exactly is this certified coin supposed to be placed on one's Sheldonized Set Registry? Something is afoot here and I am raising the hue and cry! For some time now, I have sounded the alarm that recent offerings made by coin dealers in Europe have virtually abandoned formal certifications by shifting that cost to buyers. RAW CITY. But never in my wildest dreams would I have thought my mere suspicions would be confirmed. Unless someone can come up with a credible explanation for this sea change in formal grading, I am going to suggest this does not bode well for set registrants. Grade? Uncirculated! And it's not even April Fool's day! GoldFinger1969 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobymordet Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 Congratulations! You have uncovered our diabolical scheme. Now that you have shined the proverbial light into that dark night and exposed the truth, what, pray tell, will you do next? The world awaits with bated breath. . . or maybe just bad breath... Based on this, I would assume it is a flat MS-60. Anyway for someone to make a buck, take a buck, and not give a . . . good luck Chuck . . . is how this fine country was built, body over body. I gotta admit, I learn the strangest things reading these posts.. . (Aptly, found on Britannica History & Society hue and cry English legal practice Written and fact-checked by Article History hue and cry, early English legal practice of pursuing a criminal with cries and sounds of alarm. It was the duty of any person wronged or discovering a felony to raise the hue and cry, and his neighbours were bound to come and assist him in the pursuit and apprehension of the offender. All those joining in the pursuit were justified in arresting the person pursued, even if it turned out that he was innocent. If the criminal bore apparent evidence of guilt on his person and if he resisted capture, he could be killed on the spot; if he submitted to capture, his fate was decided by due process. The various statutes relating to hue and cry were finally repealed in the early part of the 19th century. Henri Charriere and USAuPzlBxBob 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenntucky Mike Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 On 2/2/2024 at 4:55 PM, cobymordet said: Based on this, I would assume it is a flat MS-60. I'd put it at a 62 maybe a little higher, pics aren't the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandon Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 (edited) Here is your "credible explanation": See What is an Adjectival Grade? | NGC (ngccoin.com), where NGC explains, "For some bulk submissions, NGC will allow the submitter to request that only the adjectival grade be printed on the NGC certification label. This is generally done only for large submissions of relatively common coins. The coins must still meet NGC’s requirements for the numeric grade range for that adjectival grade. . .. UNCIRCULATED is often paired with the additional qualifiers of BRILLIANT, CHOICE, or GEM. NGC considers BRILLIANT UNCIRCULATED to be any coins that would grade from 60-70 on the Sheldon Grading Scale. CHOICE UNCIRCULATED is considered to be any coins that would grade from 63 to 70. GEM UNCIRCULATED (sometimes indicated as GEM UNC or GEM BU) is used for coins that would grade from 65 to 70." Presumably, a bulk submission coin graded "UNCIRCULATED" would be a lower end mint state coin that would have been graded no higher than MS 62 if submitted for numerical grading. I understand that it would be scored as a "MS 60" in the NGC Registry. NGC has been offering this service for bulk submitters for some time. It is not uncommon to see Morgan and Peace dollars and modern issues in NGC holders with these adjectival grades. Edited February 2 by Sandon zadok and Henri Charriere 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted February 3 Author Share Posted February 3 On 2/2/2024 at 4:55 PM, cobymordet said: Based on this, I would assume it is a flat MS-60. How can you presume that.when directly above your comment is an NGC graphic that indicates the "Total graded by NGC, in 60, was zero."? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted February 3 Author Share Posted February 3 On 2/2/2024 at 5:16 PM, Fenntucky Mike said: I'd put it at a 62 maybe a little higher, pics aren't the best. The distinctions that matter most occur in the Mint State range and the Set Registry makes no accommodation for speculation on these lofty grades. You've either got a slot-eligible, specific grade, or you don't. It wouldn't matter how much definition is provided in pics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted February 3 Author Share Posted February 3 On 2/2/2024 at 5:42 PM, Sandon said: Here is your "credible explanation": See What is an Adjectival Grade? | NGC (ngccoin.com), where NGC explains, "For some bulk submissions, NGC will allow the submitter to request that only the adjectival grade be printed on the NGC certification label. This is generally done only for large submissions of relatively common coins. The coins must still meet NGC’s requirements for the numeric grade range for that adjectival grade. . .. UNCIRCULATED is often paired with the additional qualifiers of BRILLIANT, CHOICE, or GEM. NGC considers BRILLIANT UNCIRCULATED to be any coins that would grade from 60-70 on the Sheldon Grading Scale. CHOICE UNCIRCULATED is considered to be any coins that would grade from 63 to 70. GEM UNCIRCULATED (sometimes indicated as GEM UNC or GEM BU) is used for coins that would grade from 65 to 70." Presumably, a bulk submission coin graded "UNCIRCULATED" would be a lower end mint state coin that would have been graded no higher than MS 62 if submitted for numerical grading. I understand that it would be scored as a "MS 60" in the NGC Registry. NGC has been offering this service for bulk submitters for some time. It is not uncommon to see Morgan and Peace dollars and modern issues in NGC holders with these adjectival grades. Thank you Sandon. I have been aware of adjectival grading for some time as many of the coins posted on this Forum's various copper, silver and gold threads are exhibited there regularly. I do not believe I have ever seen a gold rooster with "graded" as such because I was apparently unable to develop an immune system strong enough to effectively resist "set registritus syndrome" (SRS). My realm, focused on the French FDC range [from MS65 to MS-70].is my sole area of interest. If any F20F/GRs are certified below MS-60, I personally have never seen one and my theory as to why they exist at all I attribute to starry-eyed submitters for whom hope springs eternal. The equivalent of UNCIRCULATED on the FDC grade level is increasingly being listed as MS65 to MS-70. Incidentally, these so-called UNCS, are being sold at little more than spot, or $400+. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 (edited) Here in Berlin, it seems like 99.999% of all coins on offer by dealers are RAW. Most booths have NO third party graded coins. And this includes many four-figure coins. It’s an entirely different collector culture over here. If you can’t grade for yourself, the attitude is that you have no business in this business. England had a far higher penetration of slabs compared to Germany. It’s like I stepped back in time to 1987. Stempelglanz is what it is. Besides, Roosters are bullion here. Very few want to slice the bologna/baloney thin enough to ascertain a 64 from a 67. You are a fish swimming against a very strong tide over here in “the old sod”. Edited February 3 by VKurtB Henri Charriere 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenntucky Mike Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 (edited) On 2/2/2024 at 7:12 PM, Henri Charriere said: The distinctions that matter most occur in the Mint State range and the Set Registry makes no accommodation for speculation on these lofty grades. You've either got a slot-eligible, specific grade, or you don't. It wouldn't matter how much definition is provided in pics. Adjectivally graded coins can be added to registry sets but at the lowest grade in the assigned adjectival grade's range, in this case 60, it would have to be regraded and assigned a straight grade to be placed in a higher slot in a registry set. I'm assuming that the price difference between 60, 61, 62, 63 coins is miniscule at best, another reason to adjectivally grade this coin in a bulk submission. Minimal investment for a bulk submitter to have a coin like this adjectivally graded in hopes of finding someone with "SRS" or someone who wanted an authenticated piece for whatever reason. Edited February 3 by Fenntucky Mike Henri Charriere 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted February 3 Author Share Posted February 3 On 2/3/2024 at 7:09 AM, Fenntucky Mike said: Adjectivally graded coins can be added to registry sets but at the lowest grade in the assigned adjectival grade's range, in this case 60, it would have to be regraded and assigned a straight grade to be placed in a higher slot in a registry set.... Let's think about that for a moment. My authenticated, certified, encapsulated coin bearing an "adjectivel" grade, must now be resubmitted, at my expense to get a numbered grade. Nice. A few years down the road when I have lost my mind completely, I am going to cite this thread and others in support of my application for NGI, i.e., Not Guilty due to Insanity. I thank the Moai of Easter Island for giving me the strength to see at least one of my Registry Sets through to completion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
numisport Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 On 2/2/2024 at 5:42 PM, Sandon said: Here is your "credible explanation": See What is an Adjectival Grade? | NGC (ngccoin.com), where NGC explains, "For some bulk submissions, NGC will allow the submitter to request that only the adjectival grade be printed on the NGC certification label. This is generally done only for large submissions of relatively common coins. The coins must still meet NGC’s requirements for the numeric grade range for that adjectival grade. . .. UNCIRCULATED is often paired with the additional qualifiers of BRILLIANT, CHOICE, or GEM. NGC considers BRILLIANT UNCIRCULATED to be any coins that would grade from 60-70 on the Sheldon Grading Scale. CHOICE UNCIRCULATED is considered to be any coins that would grade from 63 to 70. GEM UNCIRCULATED (sometimes indicated as GEM UNC or GEM BU) is used for coins that would grade from 65 to 70." Presumably, a bulk submission coin graded "UNCIRCULATED" would be a lower end mint state coin that would have been graded no higher than MS 62 if submitted for numerical grading. I understand that it would be scored as a "MS 60" in the NGC Registry. NGC has been offering this service for bulk submitters for some time. It is not uncommon to see Morgan and Peace dollars and modern issues in NGC holders with these adjectival grades. What if it was actually Uncirculated details ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandon Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 On 2/3/2024 at 9:50 AM, numisport said: What if it was actually Uncirculated details ? See the linked page, which indicates that such an impaired coin would be graded "Uncirculated Details". zadok and Henri Charriere 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWB Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 On 2/3/2024 at 7:09 AM, Fenntucky Mike said: Adjectivally graded coins "Adjectivally graded coins" are ones that have been graded by graders who have adjectives for names rather than the customary nouns. "Fingerpriint-Lucy" "Scratchy-Tallahassee-Jose" and "LyeingTwit-Don" are examples. Closely related to epithetically, apathetically, and pathetically graded coins. There are also adverbially graded coins, but that requires more space to describe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zadok Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 On 2/3/2024 at 4:35 AM, VKurtB said: Here in Berlin, it seems like 99.999% of all coins on offer by dealers are RAW. Most booths have NO third party graded coins. And this includes many four-figure coins. It’s an entirely different collector culture over here. If you can’t grade for yourself, the attitude is that you have no business in this business. England had a far higher penetration of slabs compared to Germany. It’s like I stepped back in time to 1987. Stempelglanz is what it is. Besides, Roosters are bullion here. Very few want to slice the bologna/baloney thin enough to ascertain a 64 from a 67. You are a fish swimming against a very strong tide over here in “the old sod”. ...n now u know the allure there for USA dealers, buy the raw that will cert high.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
