Is there a guide on grading MS coins? 2 2

[Epic Waffle]

I just took these out of their mint packaging so I could could put them in holders and see them better. The P Ike looked very good with an awesome gold tone, but I looks like only the very highest grade of this coin would be worth submitting. Do you guys know where I can find a guide on grading MS coins (at least ballpark) so I can tell if this is in the 61/65/70 range? 

Thank you!

[Mr.Bill347]

Welcome to the forum. I would recommend two resources

first the Red Book coin valuation guide

second the PCGS coin valuation app which provides HD photos of every type of coin with values for comparison.

your set is nice because it displays toning which a lot of folks like.

additionally the bicentennial set has more interest as well.

👋

[Epic Waffle]

On 2/1/2024 at 5:55 PM, Mr.Bill347 said:

Welcome to the forum. I would recommend two resources

first the Red Book coin valuation guide

second the PCGS coin valuation app which provides HD photos of every type of coin with values for comparison.

your set is nice because it displays toning which a lot of folks like.

additionally the bicentennial set has more interest as well.

👋

Thank you! Literally between my post and now, Amazon delivered my loop and red book! These look so good through a loop!

[J P M]

On 2/1/2024 at 7:03 PM, Epic Waffle said:

Thank you! Literally between my post and now, Amazon delivered my loop and red book! These look so good through a loop!

Jump into the red book and you will see things you never even thought of.

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

Becoming a decent grader takes time.  You will need to look at a LOT of coins in holders to understand how coins grade.  Also, every series has its own nuances in terms our strike problems and wear patterns.  So, just because you are good at grading one series... it will not necessarily mean that you are good at another.  PCGS has a nice grading video series https://www.pcgs.com/education.  To check your skills, there is a fun coin grading game on mycollect.com. I would not submit anything until I felt proficient in grading coins.

 

[Coinbuf]

Not to be the debbie-downer in the group, but from your photos those coins look to have some PVC damage.   I would suggest that if you have a local coin shop that you have worked with before and trust you have them look at these.   Sending coins to TPG's is expensive especially when you get details grades in return.

[Sandon]

   If you are a new collector and have just received your first "Redbook" and loupe (note spelling), submitting coins to third-party grading services is the last thing you should be thinking about, with the exception for coins that are of substantial value regardless of grade and are frequently counterfeited such as the quarter eagle you recently inquired about.  Very, very few modern coins made for circulation would be worth the cost. 

   Based on your photos, the 1976 coins you show, which I assume you removed from 1975 and 1976 mint sets, have too many abrasions and inadequate luster to grade better than MS 64, and several pieces seem to have surface residue as well. The coins placed in these sets did not receive special handling at the mint. None is likely to be worth the $19 per coin grading fee at NGC, much less the processing fee and shipping costs. (Both complete sets in their mint packaging are obtainable for less than $19 in total!)  Such coins would have best been kept in their original mint packaging, and since they have been removed are best enjoyed in albums or other appropriate holders.  (The residue might be removed by soaking the coins in acetone, the proper use of which flammable substance may be found in other topics on these boards.)

    You can find guidelines for the grading of mint state coins in the A.N.A. grading guide, of which you should obtain a copy. NGC provides brief descriptions for each grade at NGC Coin Grading Scale | About Coin Grades | NGC. PCGS Photograde has photos of each series in the various mint state grades at https://www.pcgs.com/photograde. There is also the PCGS video series mentioned in another reply. However, neither written descriptions, photos, nor videos are adequate to demonstrate or teach the differences among the various grades from 60 to 70, which are dependent upon a combination of largely subjective factors.  Learning to grade mint state coins involves in-hand examination of coins at different lighting angles and comparison with professionally graded pieces.  You should attend coin shows or other venues where you can examine certified pieces at various grades. It will likely take some years of careful study before you will develop sufficient skills to determine approximate grades for mint state coins. 

[powermad5000]

Your P looks like it has been circulated. I see a lot of circulation marks on the obverse especially.

Your D also has some marks on the face and neck that I think would limit its grade to 64.

I also agree with @Coinbuf that your D has some surface issue, giving an odd splotchy coloring to it (not sure of PVC since you stated they were in mint packaging). I am thinking your P is just getting that coloring from the camera picking up the toning on that one and accentuating it. 

You stated you removed these from the mint packaging. That also exposed them to the environment and can further cause surface issues even in the capsules you put them in just as an fyi.

I hate to be "that guy" but these are tough to get a good grade on and I don't think there has ever been even a single one graded as MS 70.

Even having NCS conserving these to remediate the surface problems, I don't think the grades would offset anything and you would be at a stiff overall loss on the whole deal.

Check your Redbook, and also obtain a copy of a book titled The Official ANA Grading Standards for United States Coins, 7th Edition. In the ANA book there is also a good descriptive of each coins levels in MS, but basically by its definition, an MS coin exhibits no wear and grading the 10 spots of MS (60-70) gets into the amounts of nicks, dings, scratches, scrapes, problems, etc. across the entire surfaces of both sides of the coin as well as inspecting the rims.

[Epic Waffle]

I would like to thank you all for the information and advice you have given. I really do appreciate it. Things like this give me confidence in becoming a more serious collector! In the past it has always felt so daunting, but with people like you around to help I feel like I can keep moving forward. Little things like learning to say "submit for grading" instead of "get it graded", and "loupe" instead of "loop" I notice and remember from your feedback. I hope to one day be proficient enough to be the one giving advice and feedback instead. 

[Mike Meenderink]

Hello and welcome to the forum. I have only one thing to add. There are numerous reference books regarding grading. My favorite reference on grading US coins is The Official ANA Grading Standards for United States Coins 6th Edition by Bressett & Bowers published by Whitman Publishing. This book has very accurate and plainly written descriptions, information and AG (about good)- MS 70 (mint state) grade example photographs of almost every US coin minted. This book will teach you how to grade each individual coin since grading each different type of coin has some precursors to determining its actual grade. This book will also teach you the basic overall coin grading stipulations and characteristics to look for on all coins as well. After some time on the coins (handling, viewing, critiquing and studying) and experience you should be able to learn this craft reasonably quickly if you dedicate your time. Goodluck and hope to see you answering newbies questions soon.

Edited February 2 by Mike Meenderink

[JKK]

On 2/2/2024 at 6:26 AM, Epic Waffle said:

I would like to thank you all for the information and advice you have given. I really do appreciate it. Things like this give me confidence in becoming a more serious collector! In the past it has always felt so daunting, but with people like you around to help I feel like I can keep moving forward. Little things like learning to say "submit for grading" instead of "get it graded", and "loupe" instead of "loop" I notice and remember from your feedback. I hope to one day be proficient enough to be the one giving advice and feedback instead. 

When I want to figure out a grade from MS-60-70, I go to my ANA Grading Standards book. It's pretty thorough. However, if you want to really kill it, there's another way. It'll take years, but so does much learning in the hobby.

There's a mag called Coin World that has two things in it I care about: a price guide and a grading article. While the price guide is pretty much high retail, I save them over time and put them in binders. By now I have a handy price history reference as a result. It takes little effort and requires minimal space. But the germane thing here is the grading articles. Every issue includes a guide to grading a specific coin type and grade range, with blown-up color photos just like we ask people to post here, and detailed discussion of why the coin achieved or was relegated to a given grade. So you might see one on IHPs from FA-2 to AU-58, which might have AG-3, G-6, VG-8, F-15, VF-20, EF-45, AU-50, AU-55, and AU-58 examples--and where the author, who was not always the grader (many were slabbed) agrees or disagrees with the grade it got. I keep these articles, sort them by coin type, and also put them in binders. After about five years the mag starts to repeat its coverage, but always with a new take, so I hang onto them. If I want to fuss out a grade, I've got some very expert guidance to supplement what the ANA says. Eleven or twelve years into it, I'm starting to see some triple coverage.

[Henri Charriere]

[Following is my view, so unique (some might dismiss it as clearly uninformed, skewed, perhaps even delusional) that you will not see it expressed anywhere else...

To be fair about it, my perspective is higher Mint State grades as it relates to a series of French coins over a hundred years old.  I believe I have enough experience with my range, MS-65 thru MS-70, that I can identify what is not in that grade range, as opposed to what is.

Unlike the majority of coin connoisseurs, I accept a grader's opinion as one would words carved into granite.

I cannot imagine picking up a coin and, after careful scrutiny, deciding it is doubtless an MS-67 and submitting it with the expectation that a TPGS will agree.  Likewise, I cannot imagine acquiring a coin certified as an MS-67 and after consulting my library, voicing a vociferous objection to the assigned grade.

I am likely probably the only member who does not feel I need to have an intimate working knowledge of grading, per se, because I collect a single 16-coin series with which I am familiar. Besides, I pay doctors and dentists and accept their diagnoses without question and I know little about either. Why? Because that's their job. Likewise graders. That's what I pay them for. To simply do their job.

My feeling is if you submit a coin for grading, regardless of your knowledge, you will likely not get the specific MS grade you were expecting. And then what?  Similarly, if you acquire a certified coin and beg to differ with the verdict rendered, what are you going to do? Join the Crack-out Squad, of which there are countless numbers, and keep resubmitting it until you get the grade you feel is more appropriate and you can live with?  Is that cost-effective?

The most confounding statement I have ever come across, which was voiced by a distinguished member here on another thread recently, was related to a discussion of "adjectival grades."  He offered an accepted, standard definition of "Brilliant Uncirculated," or BU, as encompassing every Mint State grade from 60 thru 70.  Consider that in some series (mine included) the Fair Market Value, or FMV, of an MS-67 is twice that of an MS-66!  I regard that circumstance as a possible corruption hazard.  🤔 

By all means, immerse yourself in the wonderful world of Mint State grades, but bear in mind -- information, education and experience, notwithstanding -- your opinion may coincide, but never supersede a grader's, unless you are prepared to assume the prohibitive cost of shopping around for an opinion you can live with (and feel is more appropriate).  Just my two cents.]  

[J P M]

On 2/1/2024 at 11:38 PM, powermad5000 said:

Your P looks like it has been circulated. I see a lot of circulation marks on the obverse especially.

Your D also has some marks on the face and neck that I think would limit its grade to 64.

I also agree with @Coinbuf that your D has some surface issue, giving an odd splotchy coloring to it (not sure of PVC since you stated they were in mint packaging). I am thinking your P is just getting that coloring from the camera picking up the toning on that one and accentuating it. 

You stated you removed these from the mint packaging. That also exposed them to the environment and can further cause surface issues even in the capsules you put them in just as an fyi.

I have seen many coins from the older us mint cellophane wrappers that have a oily looking substance inside and on the coins. They have a yellow look also, many of the coins although uncirculated have a lot of bag marks, no FT and no FS coins in them.

[Henri Charriere]

On 2/5/2024 at 8:35 AM, J P M said:

I have seen many coins from the older us mint cellophane wrappers that have a oily looking substance inside and on the coins. They have a yellow look also, many of the coins although uncirculated have a lot of bag marks, no FT and no FS coins in them.

I believe the youngest collectors amongst us would be shocked to see how U.S. Mint coins were packed in the early 1950's.  Cardboard flat packs and flimsy, translucent glassine holders stapled together at top.  Carbon spots on proof coins, I was told, was normal and to be expected.  I doubt the Uncirculated mint sets were selectively hand-picked.  Very primitive by today's standards.  One more difference: the mint products were affordable; I feel some of the prices I have seen today are way out of line.  If gold continues to rise, it will be a U.S. Mint one-ounce Buffalo that will breach the $3,000 threshold first.

[EagleRJO]

On 2/5/2024 at 4:25 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Cardboard flat packs and flimsy, translucent glassine holders stapled together at top.  Carbon spots on proof coins, I was told, was normal and to be expected.  I doubt the Uncirculated mint sets were selectively hand-picked.  Very primitive by today's standards.

Yea, now we have milk spots and suction cup marks, mushy computer "enhanced" coin designs, woke coin programs nobody cares about which just drains available funds, lower relief strikes for higher speeds, common dings on proofs where you are lucky to get above a 69, capsules and cases that look like they came out of a rock tumbler which you hope don't just come apart, cheap boxes with peeling felt on flimsy inserts that look like they came from a dollar store, ...

And the list goes on ad nauseam..  I'll take the old "primitive" again any day.  

[Halbrook Family]

On 2/5/2024 at 5:35 AM, J P M said:

I have seen many coins from the older us mint cellophane wrappers that have a oily looking substance inside and on the coins. They have a yellow look also, many of the coins although uncirculated have a lot of bag marks, no FT and no FS coins in them.

I have gone through quite a few of the 70's uncirculated sets. I was trying to piece some dansco books together. Looked them over at my local coin dealer and also on ebay. The philly 1976 ones were almost always a kind of golden color or even a wet sort of look with a white film on the coin. On one set the penny and nickel looks good but the other coins look bad. The denver usually always looked pretty good. The 1975 set looked good however. To get the varieties you have to have both sets. The gold one above is from  1976 set and the lighter one is from 1975 set.  If you happen to come across a set that all the coins look really nice I would not break it open. 1971, 1974 were the same. 

The sets were pretty cheap however. Around $5 or so which isn't that bad considering there is almost that much in change there anyways. 

[VKurtB]

To answer the question in the topic, there is an entire course offered by the ANA on Grading Mint State Coins. It is just one part of the Numismatic Diploma program. I highly recommend joining the ANA. It is the best money you’ll ever spend in numismatics. Then take that course. Forget any book. ANY book. Take the ANA’s course. It’s a correspondence course. One caveat. It appears the Numismatic Diploma program is being rebuilt. It will be more online than in the past. 

[Henri Charriere]

Alternate viewpoint

[As this forum is dedicated to answering questions from those new to the hobby I am going to preface my remarks by stating, nay, conceding my credentials:  I am but a rank amateur, whose reputation lies in tatters and whose credibility is shot.

To me, grading is a one-way affair.  It is a skill that comes in handy if you are buying coins from sellers of "raw" coins.. You can use your grading knowledge, skill and/or experience as a bargaining chip  If you are selling -- something I do not believe is an activity I have ever engaged in -- accept the fact your opinion is secondary to that of the person to whom you are selling. He will magnify what you intend to minimize.  The "House" always wins.

If you are a buyer interested in buying MS coins that are authenticated, graded, certified, and encapsulated, your only choice is "to buy, or not to buy." If you are armed with an ANA diploma, do yourself a giant favor and deal with a reputable firm WITH a return policy if you are not completely satisfied.

If you are interested in selling your lovely slabbed coin or collection, whether you can recover the expenses entailed in certification will depend on a number of variables and the unwritten policy of the dealer you choose to deal with.  Again, the chances the person/dealer with whom you choose to deal, will slap his head and spontaneously blurt out,  "I can't believe it. Just what we were looking for!, is nil.  Once a coin is slabbed, the thrust of the inquiry will not be what's the grade? but who [which TPGS] graded it. And you will be remunerated accordingly.

Insofar as formal grading goes, right now my area of interest is limited to the upper half of the MS scale.  Difficult as it may seem to believe, only 50 years ago and going back to the time the Hittites were banging out electrums in Western Anatolia, the entire subject of grading covering the entire continuum of U.S. coins [minus Mint States which hadn't yet been "invented"] covered all of a single page in the coin collector's Bible, the Red Book. Every coin collector should have a basic understanding of coin collecting if only to recognize, e.g., NOT what an MS-67 should look like, but what it shouldn't.. And if you think education is expensive, as the saying goes, try ignorance.

Edited February 12 by Henri Charriere
Minor die polishing

[Henri Charriere]

On 2/11/2024 at 8:46 PM, VKurtB said:

To answer the question in the topic, there is an entire course offered by the ANA on Grading Mint State Coins.... It appears the Numismatic Diploma program is being rebuilt. It will be more online than in the past. 

Online???!    (Welcome home!)

[VKurtB]

Be aware that in the bulk of the rest of the world, varying only slightly by country, third party grading almost does not exist. Numismatists are EXPECTED to be able to grade, or indeed to REJECT the grading of others. In Great Britain, there is a healthy skepticism of third party grading, but in Germany, third party grading is treated with something approaching complete disdain and hatred. France lies somewhere in between. The fetish of third party grading is nearly a uniquely American “need”, where having a fat checkbook is considered an adequate substitute for numismatic knowledge. “Why do I need to know how to grade? I can outsource that to Sarasota or Southern California.” What could be more quintessentially American? Nothing. 

Edited February 12 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

@VKurtB :  As you have personally investigated this matter, intermittently, over an extended period of time and my internet forays over the past five years clearly confirms your observations and my own suspicions, I wholeheartedly agree.  What this means in a practical sense, particularly for collectors of world coins who participate in the Set Registry is, the onus is on you to correctly identify the coin you seek from a photo array and pay for the privilege of having a TPGS validate your choice with formal certification.  Many collectors and dealers attend coin shows and share their stories here.  I would be curious to know if you have ever run into the same people on your globe-trotting sprees.

[VKurtB]

On 2/12/2024 at 5:36 AM, Henri Charriere said:

@VKurtB :  As you have personally investigated this matter, intermittently, over an extended period of time and my internet forays over the past five years clearly confirms your observations and my own suspicions, I wholeheartedly agree.  What this means in a practical sense, particularly for collectors of world coins who participate in the Set Registry is, the onus is on you to correctly identify the coin you seek from a photo array and pay for the privilege of having a TPGS validate your choice with formal certification.  Many collectors and dealers attend coin shows and share their stories here.  I would be curious to know if you have ever run into the same people on your globe-trotting sprees.

What I did find in Berlin was no shortage of world collectors who were eager to discuss their views on TPG. There is sufficient “blame” to go around. I noticed that past German collectors tended to be very fond of polishing their coins. It was uncommon to find anything more than a few decades old that had NOT BEEN harshly cleaned. Toning was nearly completely absent. There simply are VAAAAAAST differences in collecting cultures. What we regard as “normal”, or even virtuous, is regarded with disdain over there. So called “great” collections headed for the international (including U.S.) auction block, and therefore headed for NGC or ₽¢G$, frequently come back with a clear majority of coins in Details holders. A typical German collector with a coin with peripheral rainbow toning will want to polish that “junk” off the coin and return it to blast white status. I spent a good amount of time at the hotel bar discussing these things with a VERY august international group, including the owner of MA-SHOPS. (I bought the first round of 0,5 liter beers.)

Edited February 12 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

This may offend a great many more people than intended, but I fail to see anything wrong with restoring architecture, classic cars, and yes -- coins to their original condition and former glory.  If making this admission automatically disqualifies me from continuing to enjoy my status as a Rising Star, so be it.  I am prepared to accept my punishment.

[Halbrook Family]

On 2/11/2024 at 8:18 PM, VKurtB said:

 but in Germany, third party grading is treated with something approaching complete disdain and hatred. France lies somewhere in between. The fetish of third party grading is nearly a uniquely American “need”, where having a fat checkbook is considered an adequate substitute for numismatic knowledge. “Why do I need to know how to grade? I can outsource that to Sarasota or Southern California.” What could be more quintessentially American? Nothing. 

That is very interesting indeed.

[powermad5000]

On 2/12/2024 at 2:05 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I fail to see anything wrong with restoring architecture, classic cars, and yes -- coins to their original condition and former glory.

I am in my second abode that was built in the late 1940's-early 1950's and I am also restoring this one (albeit, adding some modern touches). These places were very dark. Devoid of proper lumens per sq. ft. Most rooms were lit by a single 40W bulb. I restore the units to the solid construction and woodwork (typically excellently detailed with a lot of handcrafting) of the time period. I like the wood. The nice original hardwood floors. Woodwork in the closets. The original wood built pantry. The original wood window trim. I keep all of that and restore it. Many people live in these and let them fall into disrepair. I rebuild. I fix.

I also own a classic car. I have spent the last 30+ years working to restore it. Not that it was that bad in the first place, but it did need some love. And now, it needs things to stay alive and running. I put my same effort into restoring it. I try as much as possible to keep it all original (very hard since it was not really popular when it came out, and there were no restoration parts being bought to market for it). I paid steep premiums for NOS parts if I could find them.

The point of these two tangents brings me to the third. Coins. It simply just is not the same thing. I have not found a proper way to "restore" a coin. The house is different. The car is different. I can tear out old woodwork on the house and spend time with new wood and hand cutting, carving, sanding, staining, and bring the new piece to look just like the old piece. But it is a new piece. If keeping the old piece, I can strip the paint off, and scrape and sand and and bring that piece back to life as it was when it was originally put in. Same with the car. I can pull a part off, and either put an old new one (NOS - New Old Stock), or I can pull a part off and do like I had to do for my exhaust brackets. Replacements simply were not available. Still aren't. I bought steel stock. I bent and formed and cut and drilled and treated the metal to prevent rust and made them to exact same specs as the factory put on there. I am proud of that part of the project. Who else would spend 12 man hours to make two small metal exhaust brackets completely by hand? Me.

But the coin, I simply cannot restore like the house or the car. If by restoring (using the same principal method), you mean to remove it from the collection and replace it with another that is more superior to the one more impaired in the collection, well, that works, but it is not the same thing. There is no way with the coin to hand sand it and bring the surface back. There is a way to make another (called counterfeiting) which is just not how it works and it is not original. I would say NCS conservation is the closest you will come to "restoring" a coin, but it is still not going to bring some issues on the coin to full resolve. So, in summation, I have not found a way to restore a coin. Anything done to a coin in my humble opinion only serves to degrade it. Polishing causes micro scratching. Does it look "shinny" [LOL]? Sure. Is the surface the same? Nope. And it goes for anything else, soaps, erasers, whizzing, chemicals...

It seems, once the original surface of a coin suffers some kind of damage, it just is. Seems anything done to fix a problem on a coin makes it simply just not the same.

[Mr.Bill347]

On 2/1/2024 at 11:38 PM, powermad5000 said:

Your P looks like it has been circulated. 

 Chuckling over your opening remark piwermad5000 🤣

[powermad5000]

On 2/13/2024 at 10:32 AM, Mr.Bill347 said:

Chuckling over your opening remark piwermad5000

That kind of circulated P would be from the used beer department. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/2/2024 at 9:26 AM, Epic Waffle said:

I would like to thank you all for the information and advice you have given. I really do appreciate it. Things like this give me confidence in becoming a more serious collector! In the past it has always felt so daunting, but with people like you around to help I feel like I can keep moving forward. Little things like learning to say "submit for grading" instead of "get it graded", and "loupe" instead of "loop" I notice and remember from your feedback. I hope to one day be proficient enough to be the one giving advice and feedback instead. 

Do you have any particular coin series or type that you are interested in ?

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/12/2024 at 9:07 AM, VKurtB said:

What I did find in Berlin was no shortage of world collectors who were eager to discuss their views on TPG. There is sufficient “blame” to go around. I noticed that past German collectors tended to be very fond of polishing their coins. It was uncommon to find anything more than a few decades old that had NOT BEEN harshly cleaned. Toning was nearly completely absent. There simply are VAAAAAAST differences in collecting cultures. What we regard as “normal”, or even virtuous, is regarded with disdain over there. So called “great” collections headed for the international (including U.S.) auction block, and therefore headed for NGC or ₽¢G$, frequently come back with a clear majority of coins in Details holders. A typical German collector with a coin with peripheral rainbow toning will want to polish that “junk” off the coin and return it to blast white status. I spent a good amount of time at the hotel bar discussing these things with a VERY august international group, including the owner of MA-SHOPS. (I bought the first round of 0,5 liter beers.)

Seems like these practices and their disdain for TPGs being neutral arbiters of grade/condition...means they are DECADES behind us in being serious collectors, no ?

[Henri Charriere]

On 2/15/2024 at 11:11 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Seems like these practices and their disdain for TPGs being neutral arbiters of grade/condition...means they are DECADES behind us in being serious collectors, no ?

No, they have managed to retain their sanity.  No fanaticism over this; no obsessing over that.  Just normal everyday people.  That's the way it used to be here.  You had your circulated coins and if you sought something better, you got 'em every year for a nominal sum in Uncirculated Mint and Proof Sets.  Your proof set had a carbon spot?  You'd be told that's normal and to be expected on an older set. Recently, on the Rooster thread I reported the first instance I had ever seen of an example baldly described as a Counterfeit Forgery. It's beautiful. The only anomaly I recognized right away was a discrepancy in weight, 6.33 vs 6.45 grams.  The fineness of the gold is identical to that of a genuine one.  It's listed exactly like every coin  listed. They even offer a COA!  Picture Stack's Bowers doing that!  Price?  Same as a genuine. $500+.  The only question I have is why would anyone bother when the only difference is some  0.12 gram of a 90% pure gold coin that was then (1904) worth 20 French francs?  To go through all that trouble, for what? I'd love to own it, but could I convince a TPGS here to accept it?  RWB is busy researching stuff.  Just Bob is hunting elusive tokens down.  My one and only problem would be watching my back to make sure powermad5000 doesn't sneak up on me, demand I surrender it, and take delight in destroying it i/f/o my eyes. 

That's Europe. Laid back. Civilized. No agonizing over minute, imperceptible without a loupe, surface "damage."  If I had to do it all over again, I wouldn't.  "DECADES behind us"?  No. coins are not just a commodity to them.  It's just a hobby they've been pursuing at their leisure for many many centuries longer than we have. It's not all about the Benjamin$ overseas and I thank Kurt for bringing this unique perspective to our collective attention.