is this a planchet error? 1 1

[cobymordet]

Per pcgs site:

The last regularly-issued foreign coins manufactured by the US Mint were 1983-dated Panamanian coins, and the only more-recent foreign coin to date was produced by the Philadelphia Mint in 2000 as part of a two-coin Leif Erikson commemorative set issued jointly with Iceland.

[EagleRJO]

On 1/23/2024 at 2:03 PM, powermad5000 said:

... was the Mint striking anything for foreign countries in 1978 that there would be an odd planchet out on the Mint floor for some reason?

Yes, at least the Centavo coins of various denominations, which is why I asked for a weight and diameter.  I would have to do a deeper dive to see if that was at the Denver mint in addition to Philly where the foreign coin were also usually struck.

[cobymordet]

Found a pdf from (Liberty Coin Service?) with all foreign coins/planchets produced at us mint, I haven't heard of that company, but that isn't saying much.

These are the only 2 coins listed that come close to date/spec for a quarter.

Panama - 1/4 Balboa (24.3mm) 5.67g - Copper-Nickel Clad Copper - S mint produced (1966-82) {effectively identical to quarter}

Dominican Republic - 25 Centavos (24mm) 6.27g - Copper-Nickel - Produced planchet only (1978-1981 {no mint indicated}

 

[Glynn K.]

Sorry I am so inept at pic taking and thanks for the continued input.  I'll get better at this even if I am an old fart.  Here are two better, I hope, pics:

[J P M]

Much better. Now you can see the grain of the coin looks like an acid bath of some kind.

[Glynn K.]

not to ramble, but speaking of foreign coins minted in the united states, this is a pic of a book I bought probably about the year it came out - 1965. I used it as the basis for my set of foreign coins minted in the united states.  cool book.  just saw a used copy for sale on Amazon for $145.

 

back to the quarter, dang.  I was hoping to have my pic on the front page of Numismatic News.

[Coinbuf]

On 1/23/2024 at 2:06 AM, dcarr said:

Nitric acid has the property that it eats away very evenly, preserving the coin's details while making it thinner.

I've never used Nitric acid so I'll take your word for it, but I really don't see how any acid that eats away at the metal is capable of preserving the details with the level of sharpness we see in the op's original photos.   The new photo posted today does show the pebbly surface that I would expect from an acid, but I'd still like a weight.

[EagleRJO]

On 1/23/2024 at 5:50 PM, Glynn K. said:

Here are two better, I hope, pics:

A little better, but they still get blurry the instant you zoom in.  Were you resting your hand on something like a stack of books when you took the pics?

[EagleRJO]

On 1/23/2024 at 4:06 AM, dcarr said:

Nitric acid has the property that it eats away very evenly, preserving the coin's details while making it thinner.

On 1/23/2024 at 11:19 PM, Coinbuf said:

The new photo posted today does show the pebbly surface that I would expect from an acid, but I'd still like a weight.

The new pics do show more of a granular surface indicative of an acid, but what about the coin edge with the reeding intact.  Particularly since the copper core is more reactive to acid, which often results in an "oreo cookie" like appearance from one of my previous posts which isn't present.

Edited January 24 by EagleRJO

[J P M]

On 1/24/2024 at 8:23 AM, EagleRJO said:

The new pics do show more of a granular surface indicative of an acid, but what about the coin edge with the reeding intact.  Particularly since the copper core is more reactive to acid, which often results in an "oreo cookie" like appearance from one of my previous posts which isn't present.

It looks to me Eagle the reeding has dissolved a bit also I think this coin is going to show a weight difference when it is all said and done.

[EagleRJO]

On 1/24/2024 at 9:07 AM, J P M said:

It looks to me Eagle the reeding has dissolved a bit also I think this coin is going to show a weight difference when it is all said and done.

I agree that there likely is going to be a weight difference.  However, it doesn't seem possible that both outer cladding layers were completely dissolved by an acid, and yet the reeding on the edge at the more reactive copper core was only slightly effected.  That's why I suspect there may be multiple issues and requested a diameter measurement.

Edited January 24 by EagleRJO

[Glynn K.]

I am really enoying and appreciating all this interest in this topic.  I have pretty much given up coin shows and local coin clubs because, at my age, I am pretty much out of the acquisition phase (except for cheap stuff, like the occasional sales tax token I might find at a flea market) and that's about all that happens at our local coin clubs.  I did about a ten minute presentation one time years ago on a topic I thought was cool (might have been sales tax tokens, even, on which I also did an exhibit at the Miss. Numismatic Association state meeting - won first place but it was the only entrant) and it was mostly considered a delay of proceedings.

I will get a weight, but there is absolutely zero doubt it weighs a good bit less than a regular quarter and zero doubt it's at least a few microns smaller in diameter.  The diameter is something I just noticed after starting this discussion.  I would opine that if you took the finest point pencil or pen you could find and drew it around this coin it would make a circle a tad bigger, and by tad I mean a micro tad, than a regular quarter.  I don't think I have a way to measure it accurately in such small increments.

This topic is on CONECA, too.  I have had more fun on these discussion boards than I have had with numismatics in years.  Who says dweebs are not fun to be around???

I had my phone resting on two bowl edges above the coin as stable as it could be and then gently took the pics.

Thanks again for all the interest.  

/s/ maybe not the oldest numismadweeb in the bunch, but definitely in the top 5%

 

PS  I also sent two coins to NGC yesterday - a denarius of Tiberius (I hope) and what I think might be a MS65 Hard Times Token.  Had both for years.

 

[JKK]

Too bad you aren't near Portland. It often feels like half our presentations are about tokens of some sort, which put me to sleep but are a legit subject and I respect the presenters' efforts enough to stifle my yawns. You'd be in heaven.

Would have liked to take a look at your denarius. I could probably have told you whether it was of Tiberius.

For measuring microtads, a digital caliper is pretty inexpensive. Just make sure to get one with metric gradations and display, because the coin world speaks metric except when it comes to bullion weights.

[Glynn K.]

thanks.  wish I had taken a pic, but I wanted to get it slabbed.  I am reasonably sure it is, though I bought it cheap enough at the time I kind of wondered.

Not really into ancients much, but I do have a few.  I pretty much have to take the word of the seller as to what it is, but usually they're cheap enough I can't go too wrong.  I did get a really thin, ancient looking thing in a bag of coins once.  If I find it, I might post a pic of it.  It appears to me to be silver but it is incredibly thin for an ancient coin.  Though it looks crudely made enough to qualify.  And has an aura of "age" about it.

Off topic, but Portland used to be a great place.  Is it really as bad now as some make it out to be?  'Course I assumed Oregon, but there's lots of Portlands.

I'll get a caliper.  A man can't have too many toys.

 

 

 

Edited January 24 by Glynn K.

[EagleRJO]

On 1/24/2024 at 10:05 AM, Glynn K. said:

it's at least a few microns smaller in diameter

From the photo of the edge you posted it looks like there is a significant difference in the diameters, more than a few microns.  You don't necessarily need calipers to measure the diameter, like you need for measuring the thickness.

I have a measurement app on my phone I can set to mm and just put the coin on the phone to get that.  I have digital inch/mm calipers also and it doesn't come out that much different.  Or I guess you could just use a ruler that has mm, which is probably close enough.

Interesting that you are into tokens as I started adding some "civil war" tokens to my collection not long ago that reference my home state.  If you have some interesting ones you can always start another topic with a few as there are a number of members here that collect them.

[Glynn K.]

I was kind of being glib when I said microns.  I use that term with "upper management" when she asks me if a picture is centered above something.  I'll sy move a few microns right and when she does just a little I'll say TOO MUCH.  I usually deal in TADS and MICROTADS.

I dunno why tokens are interesting to me.  Brain damage, I guess.

 

[powermad5000]

With the weight and diameter in mm, if it can be matched to a possible foreign planchet, that will be necessary information. If it cannot be matched to a foreign planchet, then the acid bath is in play and also that it could just be paint on the surface will be in play. We shall wait.

[JKK]

On 1/24/2024 at 8:11 AM, Glynn K. said:

 

Not really into ancients much, but I do have a few.  I pretty much have to take the word of the seller as to what it is, but usually they're cheap enough I can't go too wrong.  I did get a really thin, ancient looking thing in a bag of coins once.  If I find it, I might post a pic of it.  It appears to me to be silver but it is incredibly thin for an ancient coin.  Though it looks crudely made enough to qualify.  And has an aura of "age" about it.

Off topic, but Portland used to be a great place.  Is it really as bad now as some make it out to be?  'Course I assumed Oregon, but there's lots of Portlands.

I'll get a caliper.  A man can't have too many toys.

Your ancient is probably, from the description, an Umayyad dirham. Perhaps a Sassanian. Both of those are silver and pretty thin.

Portland, metro area, is a city of some 3.5 million. I live in the western burbs. If you mean the downtown, it's somewhat lived down to becoming what this country boy always considered it: a zoo, but said country boy just doesn't find downtowns vibrant or exciting or fun. He goes there when he must and gets the hell out as soon as he can. Most of the metro area is fine, but you can find patches of tent cities, garbalanches, and krapp. The Max is a lot worse nowadays; wife rides it to and from downtown daily, and she can see people doing fentanyl right across the aisle. 95% of Portland is the same as it ever was, but a lot of businesses have fled downtown and I can see why.

The drug decriminalization simply didn't work, like everything that state, county, and municipal governments do in Oregon. This is the worst governed place I have ever lived in, and I used to live in Boise. The PPB are still throwing a quiet-quit pout over the fact that people actually called them to account for fascist tactics, so that doesn't help. We got a bad national rap because a tiny area of downtown saw nightly tear gas and protest combat, and everyone I knew called me to ask if my street was burning. No, I said, and neither is anywhere else unless you wait until evening to go to the courthouse area and insert yourself between the factions.

Edited January 27 by JKK

[Glynn K.]

thanks for the info on Portland.  

I found that thin coin? I told you about.  It was actually 2 - same size, one worn just about smooth, the other with something on each side.  I had no Idea how to orient them for photoraphy, which is another thing I learned how to do since becoming a member of this and CONECA.  I found a nice, average circulated, 1953 D Roosy, probably a coinstar find, to put in the pic for perspective on size.  The two objects came in the same 1 lb bag of foreign coins I bought on impulse in March of 1987.

edited to add - pretty crummy pics now that I look at the post.  Maybe I didn't learn photography as well as I thought!

 

Edited January 28 by Glynn K.

[JKK]

On 1/28/2024 at 10:44 AM, Glynn K. said:

edited to add - pretty crummy pics now that I look at the post.  Maybe I didn't learn photography as well as I thought!

It's not that the pics are crummy; it's that they are too tiny to get anywhere with. Need to be blown up--then I might be able to tell you something.

[Glynn K.]

my new toy came in.  The calibrated scale says it weighs 3.218, but it also says the test "real" quarter I used (circulated) weighs 5.553.  Using a mm ruler, a real quarter is a bit over 24 mm and using that same ruler the subject quarter is a bit under 24 mm.  Using the eyeball method, I would go with 23.8987 mm on the subject quarter and 24.3 on the real quarter.

The real quarter should weigh 5.67 but I guess a difference of .117 could be due to circulation wear?  The scale came with a 50g weight that weighed 50.04 on the scale, which I figured was close enough, but that would mean it weighed both coins a tad heavier than they really were, not lighter.

Also, here is a better pic of the teeny old coin.  One side only - the other side just isn't clear enough to photograph.  The coin looks just a tad concave too.  There were two in the acquisition but one is basically slick.  Here's what I wrote on the holder at the time I got them:

2 planchets acq 3/87 in 1 lb bag of coins.  design on one appears to be Mesopotamian (Iraq) or Turkey (mid 1800's) 12 mm

I kind of wonder if it even has anything struck on the other side.  The darn thing is so thin I don't see how it could possibly have something struck on both sides, and the blurry side my just the negative of the non-blurry side.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 31 by Glynn K.

[EagleRJO]

The mint specs for a 1978-D 25C are a 5.670g weight and 24.26mm diameter.  Is the weight of 3.218g and 24mm diameter of the original coin posted, or the coin photographed in your last post?  This type of confusion is why it's recommended to just post one coin per topic.

In any event, if the 3.218g weight is for the original quarter posted it might indicate completely missing clad layers.  Since it doesn't have an acid damaged appearance [including that the edge reeding and rims are still substantially intact], it might be a poor bond of the cladding which came off before striking, which would be a significant error if that is in fact what happened [on both sides, as missing cladding errors are usually only on one side].

Have you posted the coin with the weight to the CONECA board, and if so what did they have to say about the coin?  If they are still reviewing the coin you may want to also take some better photos of the edge at a slight angle to show both the appearance and color with substantially intact reeding and rims which may be helpful.

Edited February 11 by EagleRJO

[Glynn K.]

On 1/31/2024 at 1:57 PM, EagleRJO said:

The mint specs for a 1978-D 25C are a 5.670g weight and 24.26mm diameter.  Is the weight of 3.218g and 24mm diameter of the original coin posted, or the coin photographed in your last post?  This t ype of confusion is why it's recommended to just post one coin per topic.

In any event, if the 3.218g weight is for the original quarter posted it might indicate completely missing clad layers.  Since it doesn't have an acid damaged appearance, it might be a poor bond of the cladding which came off before striking, which would be a significant error if that is in fact what happened.  Have you posted the coin with the weight to the CONECA board, and if so what did they have to say about the coin?

Sorry about the coin confusion.  3.218 is the weight of the quarter I am calling a "planchet error."  The original quarter posted.  I just now added the weight and diameter of it to the CONECA Services part.  There has been no comment on it since I posted it originally, but now that I've added the weight and diameter of it maybe there will be.  Thanks for your continued interest.

[powermad5000]

I will be following this to its informational end. Now that there is some solid numbers, let's see what CONECA has to say about it.

[JKK]

On 1/31/2024 at 11:28 AM, Glynn K. said:

 

Also, here is a better pic of the teeny old coin.  One side only - the other side just isn't clear enough to photograph.  The coin looks just a tad concave too.  There were two in the acquisition but one is basically slick.  Here's what I wrote on the holder at the time I got them:

2 planchets acq 3/87 in 1 lb bag of coins.  design on one appears to be Mesopotamian (Iraq) or Turkey (mid 1800's) 12 mm

I kind of wonder if it even has anything struck on the other side.  The darn thing is so thin I don't see how it could possibly have something struck on both sides, and the blurry side my just the negative of the non-blurry side.

Off hand, it doesn't look Ottoman to me. The typical Ottoman coin had a toughra (sultanic sigil) on the obverse and mostly writing on the reverse. An Ottoman toughra (say TUG-ra but sort of gargle the G; this is an actual letter in the Arabic alphabet, same one everyone screws up in 'Baghdad' and 'Benghazi') looks very much like, how to describe it...like a dancer in a big flowing dress suddenly whirling. It's all writing. I had a glance through Krause 1800s and those Iraqi coins that don't have a toughra have (interestingly) a Star of David, or at least what I would call one. Whether the locals would call it that, then or now, is dubious.

[Glynn K.]

Here's what a fellow at CONECA wrote:

Hello cpagak,
To me at first glance yes it looks like it was layed in a tub of acid and let soak for a long time. Post mint damage. Question: is the rim also this color orange? I don't need to see a photo of that. Just an answer. If it is then it is definately PMD.
Hope this helps,
Eric

 

And the rim is the same color orange.  But it seems to me it would be the same color as the "meat in the sandwich" acid bath or not.  The fellow who responded responds to a lot of the stuff in that part of CONECA forum so I have no doubt he knows what he's talking about.

 

Edited February 10 by Glynn K.

[powermad5000]

Thanks for following up. I think there is now an obvious higher percentage of opinions on the acid bath.

[EagleRJO]

Quote

If they are still reviewing the coin you may want to also take some better photos of the edge at a slight angle to show both the appearance and color with substantially intact reeding and rims which may be helpful.

Was that done to clearly show the edges?

On 2/10/2024 at 6:14 PM, Glynn K. said:

And the rim is the same color orange.

That's not really what was posted here before which included an edge photo showing mostly a silver color with intact reeding and rims, that may have had a narrow brown band like any modern clad coin.  That led me, and probably others, to believe that there was a possibility the cladding peeled off after blanking but before being struck.  If the entire edge is in fact the same orange color as the faces then the coin likely is just acid damaged.

Edited February 11 by EagleRJO