Ollie3677 Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 Copper color is it post mint damage or mint error R__Rash 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWB Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 Too many U-tube videos. Read one good numismatic book and call me in the morning if not feeling rational. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenstang Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 To be a mint error, it has to happen during the striking of the coin. Unless you can explain how it could change colour at that time, then it has to be PMD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie3677 Posted January 13 Author Share Posted January 13 Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandon Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 The outer layers of clad coins are composed of a copper nickel alloy consisting of 75% copper and 25% nickel. If the coin is exposed to soil or various chemicals, especially when combined with moisture, this alloy will readily darken or otherwise discolor, as has almost certainly occurred to this 2017-D dime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R__Rash Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 (edited) The above responses are not totally accurate, it is not impossible for a coin to have a mint clad error before being struck. I have seen coins (Roosevelt dimes) verified by Coneca as being this. How the environment affects these errors in circulation varies from environment to environment If you would like to read an example, go in to Coneca….forums….and search 2000 D Roosevelt dime Edited January 13 by R__Rash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Meenderink Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 This is a defective planchet. Possibly even an improperly annealed planchet. The clad layers were thin/ stressed and not properly adhered, then began to basically exchange copper from the center to the outer surfaces. After circulation the effect is more severe since copper is more susceptible to corrosion. The coin is not a notable error and actually quite common quality control issue. Worth 10c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenstang Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 Even if it was a defective planchet, which I doubt, it would still not be considered a “mint error”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleRJO Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 On 1/13/2024 at 12:34 PM, R__Rash said: The above responses are not totally accurate, it is not impossible for a coin to have a mint clad error before being struck. I have seen coins (Roosevelt dimes) verified by Coneca as being this. How the environment affects these errors in circulation varies from environment to environment. If you would like to read an example, go in to Coneca….forums….and search 2000 D Roosevelt dime Are you thinking the darker color is from an improperly annealed planchet and that the other spots or colors are from circulation? Maybe you could post some examples of coins with a similar appearance attributed by CONECA as being a mint error, as opposed to simply opinions in a chat concerning the discoloration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R__Rash Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 (edited) On 1/13/2024 at 12:51 PM, EagleRJO said: Are you thinking the darker color is from an improperly annealed planchet and that the other spots or colors are from circulation? Maybe you could post some examples of coins with a similar appearance attributed by CONECA as being a mint error, as opposed to simply opinions in a chat concerning the discoloration. Apparently you had no desire, or maybe not the ability to search the Coneca online for something so simple. it seems you hold your opinion at a higher value than that of others. I shared the source and one coin of fact, do I also need to copy and paste for you? my statement to the OP was that it is not impossible, with proof to verify the statement. Edited January 13 by R__Rash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleRJO Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 (edited) On 1/13/2024 at 3:17 PM, R__Rash said: Apparently you had no desire, or maybe not the ability to search the Coneca online for something so simple. it seems you hold your opinion at a higher value than that of others. I shared the source and one coin of fact, do I also need to copy and paste for you? my statement was that it is not impossible, with proof to verify the statement. I don't appreciate your condescending remarks. I have no desire tracking down what you are claiming exists which I have not previously seen, and now believe to be just you blowing smoke that a coin with a similar appearance was attributed by CONECA as a mint error. Edited January 14 by EagleRJO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R__Rash Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 On 1/13/2024 at 1:38 PM, EagleRJO said: I don't appreciate your condescending remarks. I have no desire tracking down what you are the one claiming exists which I have not previously seen, and now believe to be just you blowing smoke that a coin with a similar appearance was attributed by CONECA as a mint error. Condescending, lol, that was just a nudge, lol….. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powermad5000 Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 If it is a missing clad layer, the weight would be low. What is the weight of the coin in question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R__Rash Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 On 1/13/2024 at 2:38 PM, powermad5000 said: If it is a missing clad layer, the weight would be low. What is the weight of the coin in question? Winner 🏆 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R__Rash Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 (edited) On 1/13/2024 at 8:56 AM, Ollie3677 said: Copper color is it post mint damage or mint error I have shown you where a coin was verified to have missing clad error on one side of a dime before striking, (copper showing as in your op question) now the question is has there ever been verification of clad error missing from both sides of the same coin before being struck. 🤔 I I don’t want you to think I am suggesting these coins have any great monetary value but knowledge of all the possibile whys are very valuable when searching.. Edited January 14 by R__Rash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleRJO Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 (edited) On 1/13/2024 at 4:38 PM, powermad5000 said: If it is a missing clad layer, the weight would be low. What is the weight of the coin in question? It doesn't have the appearance of a missing or partial clad layer mint error, which would be a solid copper color for an entire side or solid copper color over part of a side which would look like cladding had flaked off similar to the coins shown in the links below. It just appears to be discolored, so the weight is likely not significantly less than the 2.27g mint spec, with each of the outer clad layers weighing about 15% of the gross coin weight or 0.35g each. But perhaps @Ollie3677 can weigh the coin to verify that. If it's just slightly under weight perhaps it was exposed to some environmental condition which erroded away some of the outer cladding, as opposed to simply discoloring the coin which is what it appears to be right off the bat. https://www.pcgs.com/news/missing-clad-layer-mint-error-coins https://www.error-ref.com/partial-clad-layer-before-strike/ Edited January 14 by EagleRJO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R__Rash Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 (edited) Possible Partial clad missing or too thin Edited January 13 by R__Rash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 (edited) The most likely cause must ALWAYS be the case. All these are discolored on BOTH sides, hence ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE. Please, for Gawd’s sake, STOP IT WITH THESE ERROR REPORTS!!!! Edited January 14 by VKurtB Sandon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J P M Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 On 1/13/2024 at 8:00 PM, VKurtB said: The most likely cause must ALWAYS be the case. All these are discolored on BOTH sides, hence ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE. Please, for Gawd’s sake, STOP IT WITH THESE ERROR REPORTS!!!! LoL ..I have some coins like this ...maybe it is just toned guys .. Not all the facts are present. The op has not even given us a weight of the dime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Bob Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 On 1/13/2024 at 12:53 PM, Mike Meenderink said: The clad layers were thin/ stressed and not properly adhered, then began to basically exchange copper from the center to the outer surfaces. This is the first time I have heard this theory. Can you explain how it is possible for copper to migrate from the middle of the coin to the outside of the clad layer? Fenntucky Mike 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Bob Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 On 1/13/2024 at 5:23 PM, R__Rash said: now the question is has there ever been verification of clad error missing from both sides of the same coin before being struck. 🤔 Yes. The OP's coin appears to have simple environmental damage, so i don't think it applies, but here is a section of an article by error coin dealer Jon Sullivan: One other type of missing clad layer is called a “dual missing clad layer,” which is a coin missing both the obverse and reverse clad layers, with only the copper core remaining. Such a coin will be copper on both sides and will weigh approximately 30% less than a normal coin of its type. The dual missing clad layers are incredibly rare, with less than 10 known for Roosevelt Dimes, five to 10 for Washington Quarters, and only one for Kennedy Half Dollars, and none are known for the dollar coin series. R__Rash and EagleRJO 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Meenderink Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 (edited) On 1/13/2024 at 6:46 PM, Just Bob said: This is the first time I have heard this theory. Can you explain how it is possible for copper to migrate from the middle of the coin to the outside of the clad layer? When a planchet is improperly annealed or over heated that process causes the molecules of copper to migrate to the surfaces of the planchet. Also a planchet with thin clad layers may also be at play here. These errors can occur at the same time. When in circulation the copper layer seems to overtake the outer nickel copper layers by completely replacing it with a rough copper surface. This happens from the inside out. It's called molecular copper effervescence. It's not particularly rare. True missing clad layer coins are different and have a more smooth appealing copper surface and they are more scarce. See example of this effervescence process below, my 1986 Improperly Annealed Washington Quarter. The surface is reddish brown rough textured and remnants of the clean clad layers are still on the rims. Edited January 14 by Mike Meenderink Sandon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Bob Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 Have you been drinking? EagleRJO and R__Rash 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie3677 Posted January 14 Author Share Posted January 14 I will dig out the dime and re-weigh it tomorrow and po st, but I believe it weighed 3.10 grams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleRJO Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 (edited) On 1/13/2024 at 4:51 PM, R__Rash said: On 1/13/2024 at 6:23 PM, R__Rash said: I have shown you where a coin was verified to have missing clad error on one side of a dime before striking The op's coin and other random coins posted with a similar simply discolored appearance don't look anything like the pre-strike missing clad layer coin referenced in the CONECA letter as shown in the bottom right of that image, or similar missing clad layer error coins as shown in the article and webpage I linked above and the attached examples which have a solid copper color that is sometimes a little darkened. So it looks like you were just blowing smoke that a coin similar in appearance to the op's coin was attributed by coneca as being a mint error. Edited January 15 by EagleRJO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie3677 Posted January 14 Author Share Posted January 14 (edited) I will dig out the dime form my other dimes and re- weigh it. I believe if memory serves me correctly, that it weighed 2.27 grams.it has been about 3 months since I found it so I will repost the exact weight tomorrow so don't take the 2.27 on this blog as gospel. Edited January 14 by Ollie3677 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleRJO Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 (edited) On 1/13/2024 at 11:54 PM, Ollie3677 said: I will dig out the dime form my other dimes and re- weigh it. I believe if memory serves me correctly, that it weighed 3.10 grams You might be thinking of a copper cent you weighed as a normal clad dime would weigh a little less. Edit: The follow up post indicating a 2.27g weight is about right for a normal clad dime. Edited January 14 by EagleRJO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Meenderink Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 On 1/13/2024 at 8:41 PM, Just Bob said: Have you been drinking? Do some research on improperly annealed clad coins then get back to me. Thanks. You and Sandon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleRJO Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 (edited) On 1/13/2024 at 10:28 PM, Mike Meenderink said: See example of this effervescence process below, my 1986 Improperly Annealed Washington Quarter The quarter you posted just appears to be improperly annealed which is simply an over heated planchet with either a rearranging of of constituent components within the Cu-Ni cladding bringing more copper to the surface or copper dust contamination on the surface. Nothing related to copper migrating or diffusing thru the outer Cu-Ni cladding. Where can I read about this "molecular copper effervescence" involving the copper core migrating through the outer solid cladding, or perhaps that is a misquote, as I see nothing at error-ref.com which is very comprehensive or any other error references, and considering "effervescence" is the migration of a salt through a porous or crystalline material. In any event those coins like the one you posted would have an overall solid darkened appearance which looks nothing like the variable discolored appearance of the op's coin. https://www.error-ref.com/improper-annealing/ Edited January 15 by EagleRJO Fenntucky Mike 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenntucky Mike Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 The details and rim on both sides seem complete and well defined, this would not be the case if one or both the clad layers were missing during striking. As others have said, you can weigh the coin if you like. Defective flan, meh, doubtful, just looks like a stained coin at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
