Tuffy512 Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 I believe I may have one of these coins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuffy512 Posted January 4 Author Share Posted January 4 I'm far from a professional of coin grading or even collecting, but do know a few things about coins that I learned from my Grandpa when I was younger. From a novice coiners standpoint, and after researching countless web sites and videos, I believe that I may just have one of these rare coins. The heavy strike on the obverse grabbed my attention instantly after I felt it in my fingers. Never felt a coin with such a deep strike and sharp edge to it, outside of a proof coin that is. So anyone with any knowledge to share on this topic, I would appreciate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobymordet Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 Hi Tuffy512, welcome to the forum. It would be great to see the coin you are referring to. Please post clear and cropped photos of the obverse and reverse of the coin so we can see what you've got. I will admit, I am not aware of a 1964 SMS JFK coin. To my recollection, the SMS sets were "Proof-adjacent" sets produced in 1965, 1966, & 1967. We are looking forward to seeing this coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coinbuf Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 On 1/3/2024 at 5:35 PM, Tuffy512 said: I believe I may have one of these coins. You don't, end of story. That may come across as harsh but the simple fact is that the only coins to be certified as 1964 SMS coins came from the estate of the mint director in 1964. If you don't have undisputed documentation to prove that your coin came from this source whatever you have will never be recognized as a 1964 SMS coin. Henri Charriere and l.cutler 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobymordet Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 I learned something new today, thank you Coinbuf. (Copied from Greysheet.com): Greysheet Catalog Details (GSID: 6988) The 1964 Half dollar is part of a series of Kennedy half dollar coins struck from 1964-Present. The specific variety is Special Mint Set. Struck in Philadelphia and designated as a Business (SMS) strike, this coin is made of 90% silver; 10% copper from a mintage of Unknown struck. While the United States Mint was busy producing business-strike coins for commerce needs and proof coins for collectors in 1964, apparently a couple dozen or so SMS Kennedy half dollars were also struck. But why were SMS coins made in 1964' It's a question that hasn't been ever definitively answered. What we in the numismatic community know is that several turned up in the estate of former United States Mint Director Eva B. Adams, who passed away in 1991. Perhaps the 1964 SMS coins were made as prototype strikes for the SMS coinage that was struck for collectors from 1965 through 1967. Perhaps the 1964 SMS Kennedy half dollars were made in conjunction with the 1964-D Peace dollars that were struck but never authorized for release, and all of which were reportedly melted. Or, perhaps, there is another reason why the 1964 SMS Kennedy half dollars were struck but has yet to be elucidated. All 1964 SMS Kennedy half dollars are extremely scarce and valuable. Their squared-off rims, well struck details, and clean fields differentiate them from their business-strike counterparts. In recent years, prices for the 1964 SMS Kennedy half dollars have easily crossed the five-figure threshold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Coinbuf Posted January 4 Popular Post Share Posted January 4 (edited) On 1/3/2024 at 6:40 PM, cobymordet said: I learned something new today, thank you Coinbuf. (Copied from Greysheet.com): Greysheet Catalog Details (GSID: 6988) The 1964 Half dollar is part of a series of Kennedy half dollar coins struck from 1964-Present. The specific variety is Special Mint Set. Struck in Philadelphia and designated as a Business (SMS) strike, this coin is made of 90% silver; 10% copper from a mintage of Unknown struck. While the United States Mint was busy producing business-strike coins for commerce needs and proof coins for collectors in 1964, apparently a couple dozen or so SMS Kennedy half dollars were also struck. But why were SMS coins made in 1964' It's a question that hasn't been ever definitively answered. What we in the numismatic community know is that several turned up in the estate of former United States Mint Director Eva B. Adams, who passed away in 1991. Perhaps the 1964 SMS coins were made as prototype strikes for the SMS coinage that was struck for collectors from 1965 through 1967. Perhaps the 1964 SMS Kennedy half dollars were made in conjunction with the 1964-D Peace dollars that were struck but never authorized for release, and all of which were reportedly melted. Or, perhaps, there is another reason why the 1964 SMS Kennedy half dollars were struck but has yet to be elucidated. All 1964 SMS Kennedy half dollars are extremely scarce and valuable. Their squared-off rims, well struck details, and clean fields differentiate them from their business-strike counterparts. In recent years, prices for the 1964 SMS Kennedy half dollars have easily crossed the five-figure threshold. The whole theory of 1964 SMS coins is one of much debate in the numismatic world. @RWB has opined that these are nothing special, just the first coins struck from the die pair and given to the mint director for some reason. If I remember correctly Roger has written that there are no mint records to prove the whole SMS theory. However, several other well respected members of the numismatic world who have seen and held at least one of the documented coins disagree and are quite emphatic that the coins have a completely different look to them than any other 1964 or even SMS coins from later years. And at least for now the TPG's have decided to certify those coins if they can be traced definitively to Eva Adams. I have no dog in the fight as I don't want one and don't care one way or the other, all I know is that these coins have a few distinctive die markers and quite often someone shows up here with a coin that displays one or several of those die markers and proclaims to have a 64 SMS. Spoiler alert, they never have one. This has also been explained away and as after the first strike coins were struck those same dies were used to strike coins for circulation. Only the people that were alive and in the press room when these were struck actually know for a fact what went on, and so far there do not appear to be any confessions on record that I know of. Edited January 4 by Coinbuf RonnieR131, Sandon and l.cutler 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobymordet Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 Must there always be conspiracies and mysteries? The Bigfoot Alien is as far I can go down that rabbit hole LOL. RonnieR131 and Coinbuf 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandon Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 Welcome to the NGC chat board. Obviously, we couldn't offer any opinion whatsoever as to the nature of your coin without seeing clear, cropped photos of each side of your coin. So far, you have offered no evidence that you have one of the extremely rare and controversial so-called "SMS" 1964 Kennedy half dollars. As you probably know, the Philadelphia mint produced over 273 million circulation quality Kennedy half dollars, which were generally well struck, have sharp rims and are frosty when uncirculated. The mint also sold over 3.9 million proof sets containing well struck, mirror surface proof versions of this coin. The so-called "SMS" pieces are said to have a "uniformly satin finish" (NGC), which you don't mention. See photos and discussion at https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1964-50c-sms/6844 and Kennedy Half Dollars (1964-Date) | VarietyPlus® | NGC (ngccoin.com) (1964 50C SP). As mentioned by @Coinbuf, these coins are believed to have a special provenance originating with former mint director Eva Adams or another mint employee and not to exist "in the wild". We frequently see claims of findings of 1964 SMS coins and other extremely rare special or off-metal strikings on these forums, but so far none of these claims has ever been proven. We have good reason to be skeptical. Many of the unidentified "websites and videos" you have seen may contain disinformation, as has unfortunately become all too common. Coinbuf and RonnieR131 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powermad5000 Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 Hello and welcome! Number one, I cannot specifically comment on any coin without at least a photo of both sides of it. A clear, cropped photo at that. Number two, I highly doubt you have one of these for two reasons. First, you are a self proclaimed novice as evidence in your own words so you probably would not be aware of the actual differences in surface and strike and secondly, coins of this nature are not found in random collections but once struck remained in the provenance of who's hand they were placed in and if given to someone else was typically accompanied by a letter stating names and the unfolding situation. Number three, if you really do have one of these coins (I still highly doubt), you have seriously impacted its value by rubbing your fingers across the surface "feeling the deep strike and sharp edge" of the coin (and also have compromised the surface of the proofs you stated you have also done this too). If this coin were truly valuable, it would now need conservation (and also the proofs this was done to) as you have imparted the oils of your hand to the surface which will cause rub marks and/or fingerprints and splotchy toning. NEVER HANDLE A COIN BY ITS SURFACE! Handle a coin by its edges only if you must handle the coin with your fingers at all. RonnieR131 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuffy512 Posted January 4 Author Share Posted January 4 Wow! Wasn't expecting such an informative response to my post. But I do thank you all for your honest and professional opinions. Apparently I'm not the novice coiners I thought I was because I understood everything that was commented on my post. And no worries, I never go around fondling coins that I know are valuable, proofs being the obvious. That was my gramps #1 rule but thanks for your concern. The coin was presented to me as just another 50c piece so I handled it in that manner until I realized I may have had something unique in my hand. I have learned from your comments that what I have is probably not the rare SMS coin I had researched due to the impossibilities itself surrounding the history of those coins. But damn sure does fit the bill. My coin carries all from what I can see without a magnifying glass on hand the characteristics of the rare SMS. I would never go through the trouble of creating this forum or the discussion herein if I hadn't done my own research first and believed by the facts I learned that I was possibly holding the real deal. I apologize for the pics but I am not able to load up pics from my files and was only able to snap a photo for you all. The better pics in my files will get posted as soon as I figure out how. Definetly a novice techy. So I guess my question now is...what am I holding here? This coin has all the features described of the '64 SMS- Little if any signs of circulation. And not that I plan to sell, but what kind of value does this have.? Thanks again you all for your insight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l.cutler Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 Pictures are too blurry to look for the die markers, but I don't see anything to indicate a sms coin. It appears to be a normal circulation strike, no You can try for clearer pictures, but I see no chance this is a sms coin. Coinbuf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenntucky Mike Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 On 1/4/2024 at 3:23 AM, Tuffy512 said: I have learned from your comments that what I have is probably not the rare SMS coin Not probably, it's not. On 1/4/2024 at 3:23 AM, Tuffy512 said: So I guess my question now is...what am I holding here? A perfectly normal half dollar. On 1/4/2024 at 3:23 AM, Tuffy512 said: And not that I plan to sell, but what kind of value does this have.? 50¢ face value, $8.34 melt. Coinbuf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandon Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 PCGS states that the so-called "SMS" or "special strike" coins "contain a smooth satin like appearance with the rims being very square and sharp. There are die polishing lines throughout the coins' surfaces. These coins also tend to lack contact marks unlike business strike coins, indicating that they were struck and handled under extreme care." Your photos are too blurry and uncropped to show die polishing lines or an absence of contact mark, but they do show a reflectivity of luster that is inconsistent with a "smooth satin like appearance". As noted, the photos are also too blurry to show any "die markers" such as the defect on the crosslet of the "4" said to be present on all but one of the authenticated pieces. The photos seem to show an ordinary 1964 Kennedy half dollar with some tarnish type toning and possible light wear. Here are cropped photos of an uncirculated 1964 Kennedy half dollar that has spent decades in a coin album. My photography isn't great either, but based on what I've seen so far, if your coin is one of the special strikes, maybe this one is as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 On 1/3/2024 at 6:35 PM, Tuffy512 said: I believe I may have one of these coins. Nope. Not even remotely arguable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWB Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 A nice article is in preparation which completely debunks the entire "1964 SMS" lie. Members will have to be patient. Rod D. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 (edited) On 1/4/2024 at 7:32 PM, RWB said: A nice article is in preparation which completely debunks the entire "1964 SMS" lie. Members will have to be patient. What venue? I REALLY want to read that one. I sincerely hope your definition of “debunk” and mine are compatible. Be forewarned, though, that LACK of documentation will not make the cut. Denizens of government seldom document their shady self-dealing details. Edited January 5 by VKurtB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuffy512 Posted January 5 Author Share Posted January 5 Thanks again for all your input. I've learned a few things I guess about the coin that i have. I have some other questions about my coin but considering I can't get any clearer pics to load up here, it's best I take it to my local dealer. Although not the rare special strike I once believed, I still feel that there is something unique about this coin. The obverse is struck so deep that it gives reason for pause and further investigation. Thanks all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coinbuf Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 (edited) On 1/5/2024 at 9:24 AM, Tuffy512 said: Thanks again for all your input. I've learned a few things I guess about the coin that i have. I have some other questions about my coin but considering I can't get any clearer pics to load up here, it's best I take it to my local dealer. Although not the rare special strike I once believed, I still feel that there is something unique about this coin. The obverse is struck so deep that it gives reason for pause and further investigation. Thanks all... Several things can affect what you see or perceive as different, early strikes off fresh dies look different than middle or late stage die strikes. How a die is basined or lapped can also give a different look for the first few strikes. I would be surprised if your local dealer is an expert in such issues, but please do update us with your findings. Edited January 5 by Coinbuf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 On 1/5/2024 at 10:24 AM, Tuffy512 said: it's best I take it to my local dealer. Maybe, maybe not. Far too many local dealers are I-d-i-o-t-s. Henri Charriere 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross soltess Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 Sandon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross soltess Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 The first pic I believe is sms 64 I took a picture comparing regular business strikes it's obvious which one stands out Sandon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coinbuf Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 (edited) Oh for crying out loud! PLEASE STOP THIS 1964 SMS baloney! You don’t have one. Period. Full stop. End of story. Ross’ first photo shows an unusually messed up 1964 half dollar. People need to get a grip! Edited March 25 by VKurtB Sandon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandon Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 @Ross soltess--Welcome to the NGC chat board. No, the coin you posted looks nothing like one of the so-called "SMS" coins. It's just an ordinary, somewhat mishandled 1964 Kennedy half dollar, one of over 273 million minted, even assuming that it was coined at the Philadelphia mint, which we can't tell without seeing the reverse. Perhaps that's fortunate, as your holding it in your bare hands isn't doing it any good and would be devaluing to a rare coin. It's only worth its silver value, currently around $9. In the future, please post questions you have about particular coins as new topics, not as replies to someone else's old topic, and include clear cropped photos of each side of the coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
