Individual coin grade report 1 1

[Blind Pig]

Why are there no grading reports for submitted coins? It would be nice to understand why a coin received the grade that it did.

Admittedly, I am not a trained professional regarding coins. However, when a coin was submitted that has been encased and in my possession since it was released 60 years ago and is returned as UNC CLEANED, it makes me wonder when it was cleaned… at the Mint?

[J P M]

There was a time in the past when it was acceptable to clean a coin. It was later determined that it was not a good idea to clean coins.

[Blind Pig]

J P M…. Thank you for your reply, I appreciate it and totally agree that it used to be the thing to clean coins.

However, it would truly be great if NGC could actually give the customer a copy of any notes taken during the grading process.

The coin I mentioned still “cartwheels” when rocked in the light and has some toning around it.  From what I have read in many places, including the NGC website, these are features that should not exist if a coin has been cleaned.

As an engineer I learned long ago that, without data to back it, it is just an opinion - therefore I would like to see the data that NGC has. 

[Sandon]

    A third-party grading service's grade assignment is never anything more than an opinion, albeit one by people who are supposedly objective, as well as trained and experienced.  That is why collectors should learn how to grade coins themselves, develop their own judgment and taste, and not rely entirely on what is printed on a grading service's little paper tag or the presence or absence of someone else's sticker.

    The opinion that a coin has been "cleaned" is based on it having a variety of appearances, such as significant hairlining, an unnatural color, dullness, brightness, or shine, or blotchy toning. See my custom registry set Characteristics of "Cleaned" Coins - Custom Set (collectors-society.com).   It is not possible to know just what happened to the coin during the course of its existence that created one of these appearances, but if you are going to submit coins to grading services, you should be able to arrive at an approximate grade yourself and be able to recognize factors that are likely to be interpreted as impairments and result in a "details" grade. If you removed a collector's issue from its original mint packaging, which was evidence of its authenticity and originality, and the grading service returned it as having been "cleaned", that supports my position that such coins should not be submitted to grading services.

   The volume of coins submitted to grading services would make it impractical for the graders to render a written opinion on every coin submitted, would further delay the process, which can already take months, and would likely increase the already considerable cost. It is possible that you might be able to obtain the content of any notes the graders took about your coin on the "Ask NGC/NCS" forum or by contacting NGC customer service.    

[EagleRJO]

On 12/25/2023 at 9:20 AM, Blind Pig said:

a coin was submitted that has been encased and in my possession since it was released 60 years ago and is returned as UNC CLEANED, it makes me wonder when it was cleaned

You may have inadvertently caused some signs of cleaning by handling and examining the coin a long time ago.  Those marks don't just go away.

[J P M]

We had a post a while back where someone had a 2021 morgan they submitted it as a new coin hoping for a MS70.. The coin came back as cleaned. It was said to have been wiped at the mint before receiving the coin.

[EagleRJO]

On 12/25/2023 at 7:40 PM, J P M said:

We had a post a while back where someone had a 2021 morgan they submitted it as a new coin hoping for a MS70.. The coin came back as cleaned. It was said to have been wiped at the mint before receiving the coin.

I'm not aware of any post strike process that may give the appearance of being wiped.  What are you thinking of?

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/25/2023 at 1:41 PM, Blind Pig said:

J P M hank you for your reply, I appreciate it and totally agree that it used to be the thing to clean coins.  However, it would truly be great if NGC could actually give the customer a copy of any notes taken during the grading process.  The coin I mentioned still “cartwheels” when rocked in the light and has some toning around it.  From what I have read in many places, including the NGC website, these are features that should not exist if a coin has been cleaned.  As an engineer I learned long ago that, without data to back it, it is just an opinion - therefore I would like to see the data that NGC has. 

They spend less than 30 seconds looking at virtually all coins, except maybe high-end ones or trophy coins.

Doubt there would be much to communicate.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/25/2023 at 7:40 PM, J P M said:

We had a post a while back where someone had a 2021 morgan they submitted it as a new coin hoping for a MS70.. The coin came back as cleaned. It was said to have been wiped at the mint before receiving the coin.

Maybe the submitter mishandled it ?  Or it could have been a gross error on the part of the TPG, though I have never heard of this happening before....brand new coin from the Mint being considered UNC DETAILS. 

[EagleRJO]

On 12/25/2023 at 10:20 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Or it could have been a gross error on the part of the TPG

Not very likely unless there is something specific you are thinking the TPGs might do to give the appearance of being wiped or cleaned.

Edited December 26, 2023 by EagleRJO

[powermad5000]

I have but one main question for the OP. Were you standing at the end of the press when this coin was ejected and then it was retrieved and handed to you directly? Or do you mean you got it from a bank or a cash register when it was first released?

I seriously doubt the Mint wipes anything right after striking as there is not really a need for that unless a coin escaped the bin and rolled on the floor and a Mint employee retrieved it and gave it a wipe with his shirt before throwing it back into the bin (also not likely).

In the more plausible case that you got the coin from a bank or a cash register right after they were released, literally anything can happen to a coin once it leaves Mint property. It could fall out of the coin rolling machine, it could fall out of the mint bag after being opened. It could appear "wiped" from being improperly handled by a gloved hand (not handled by its edges and the glove left some hairlines as it slid across the surface). And the farther from the Mint it goes and the longer the time is elapsed the incidents for things to occur to the coin increase tremendously.

As for individual reports, it is not in the best interest of NGC or any TPG to include a full report of the graders notes. I would say most submitters don't have a use for them and would only need or want them in particular circumstance (such as your desire to see the notes here). I believe if you contact NGC customer service with your submission number and the number on the slab they can actually retrieve the graders notes for you. It is really not practical to include such a thing with every coin returned as many submitters know exactly or very closely what the slab is going to say when it comes back, and those that don't can give the coin another look at in the slab and see where the issues are.

[J P M]

On 12/25/2023 at 10:11 PM, EagleRJO said:

I'm not aware of any post strike process that may give the appearance of being wiped.  What are you thinking of?

Someone posted a coin that had scratches from someone that had wiped the coin before encapsulating it ..................So they said anyway ..., You could see the fine lines from a quick wipe. Not sure who did the wipe.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/25/2023 at 11:11 PM, EagleRJO said:

Not very likely unless there is something specific you are thinking the TPGs might do to give the appearance of being wiped or cleaned.

If the surface is soft (i.e., gold) and it comes out of a velvet pouch or something "rougher"....maybe the coin's surface could look "cleaned" ?

[EagleRJO]

On 12/26/2023 at 8:30 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

If the surface is soft (i.e., gold) and it comes out of a velvet pouch or something "rougher"....maybe the coin's surface could look "cleaned" ?

No, that might give it a slight rub mark, but they don't use those.  They use PET or "Mylar" double pocket flips (e.g. SAFLIP), and that is what coins are required to be submitted in.

Edited December 27, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Blind Pig]

As the original poster, I appreciate and respect the input/insight shared by all.

Where I obtained this JFK half dollar almost 60 years ago I cannot recall. It has been encased the entire time, and was forgotten about until just a few months ago while packing for a move.

Prior to deciding to submit the coin for grading, I researched on both the NGC and PCGS websites and elsewhere to determine if it would be worth the cost of submission. As there is “cartwheeling”, toning and under a 5x loupe no noticeable scratching (to my untrained eyes), I submitted the coin per the instructions on the NGC website.

When the coin was returned as UNC DETAILS – CLEANED, I did reach out to NGC to request any possible notes taken that would explain this result. I was informed that that was not possible. As such, I posted my question in this forum regarding grading reports.

I liken my request to a teacher returning an exam or paper with markings on it, not just a grade at the top.

So again, I appreciate the input from all. I was just curious as to what factors resulted in the grade received - this is where a grading report would be useful to customers. 
 

[VKurtB]

On 12/25/2023 at 12:41 PM, Blind Pig said:

J P M…. Thank you for your reply, I appreciate it and totally agree that it used to be the thing to clean coins.

However, it would truly be great if NGC could actually give the customer a copy of any notes taken during the grading process.

The coin I mentioned still “cartwheels” when rocked in the light and has some toning around it.  From what I have read in many places, including the NGC website, these are features that should not exist if a coin has been cleaned.

As an engineer I learned long ago that, without data to back it, it is just an opinion - therefore I would like to see the data that NGC has. 

It IS JUST AN OPINION. 

[VKurtB]

On 12/25/2023 at 9:19 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

They spend less than 30 seconds looking at virtually all coins, except maybe high-end ones or trophy coins.

Doubt there would be much to communicate.

For modern coins, it’s NOWHERE NEAR as long as 30 seconds. 

[EagleRJO]

On 12/27/2023 at 11:35 AM, Blind Pig said:

I was just curious as to what factors resulted in the grade received - this is where a grading report would be useful to customers.

The factors are if a grader sees signs of cleaning.  Beyond that doing some research on cleaned coins might help to understand this.

About reports, I would think the vast majority would not want to pay significantly more for grading so that a report can be generated for each coin, regardless of whether one is needed or not, just to cover the occasional event of someone who is disappointed with the results wanting an explanation.  And for experienced collectors "Details - Cleaned" says it all.

[Mike Meenderink]

Can we see some good photos of the coin obverse and reverse? That would be helpful.