grading tier question 1 1

[hr1704]

Thanks @powermad5000.  I've seen the term "stabilized surface" before.  Does that mean they just remove the corrosion or do they do something special beyond that?  If so, maybe NGC should add a special mark to the slabs to let people know that this coin could be be resistant to further problems after twenty years?

So we all agree that the price I pay for grading should not be related to the grade given.  Should I also expect that the quality of work done on conservation is the same whether I pay the fixed $35 for < $3k or the 4% FMV, which could be hundreds of dollars?  I'm still not sure how they justify 4% of FMV.  Maybe for liability in case they make it worse?

 

 

BTW, I'm waiting for a seasoned veteran to chime in with a single-line post like this:

Quote

NEVER CLEAN YOUR COINS!!!!

Don't let me down!  

[J P M]

On 12/17/2023 at 4:36 AM, hr1704 said:

Thanks @powermad5000.  I've seen the term "stabilized surface" before.  Does that mean they just remove the corrosion or do they do something special beyond that?  If so, maybe NGC should add a special mark to the slabs to let people know that this coin could be be resistant to further problems after twenty years?

So we all agree that the price I pay for grading should not be related to the grade given.  Should I also expect that the quality of work done on conservation is the same whether I pay the fixed $35 for < $3k or the 4% FMV, which could be hundreds of dollars?  I'm still not sure how they justify 4% of FMV.  Maybe for liability in case they make it worse?

 

 

BTW, I'm waiting for a seasoned veteran to chime in with a single-line post like this:

Don't let me down!  

OK, never clean your coins.

[VKurtB]

On 12/16/2023 at 10:57 PM, hr1704 said:

I think you need to re-read the post then.  I consider myself correct the entire time.  Although @VKurtB definitely helped me have an appreciation with some of the inner workings and problems at coin grading companies, the takeaways from this are:
1) NGC won't think twice about keeping the money if you over-estimate the value
2) It's better to under-estimate the value and just let them NGC bump it to another tier if necessary
This seems like good advice for beginners and seasoned veterans.

If you really can’t bring yourself to play it straight, this works.

[VKurtB]

All (and remember, all means ALL) conservation techniques and solvents are closely held trade secrets. NGC knows far more than I do, and I know and use far more than most collectors do. I have right now nine different 1 liter brown bottles with various liquids in them to remove “stuff” from coins. Some are “duh easy” like distilled water and acetone, but others are more err, umm, exotic(?) chemicals, most of which cannot be acquired at Home Depot. Some are only for silver, some are only for copper, and one is almost guaranteed to add rainbows to small cents post-1865. One chemical is an Eastman Kodak formula for removing argentothiosulfate stains from darkroom textiles, such as towels, aprons, and yes, shirts and pants. NGC has way more than I do, and every shipwreck find ever brought to the surface has been wildly conserved. 

Edited December 17, 2023 by VKurtB

[powermad5000]

I am not exactly sure how NCS does what they do and I don't think there is anyone outside the company that knows what they do or how they do it.

I am sure it is not as simple as removing corrosion. I own a classic muscle car. It is not good enough to just remove the actual corrosion. You have to remove some of the adjacent metal as corrosion basically starts under the surface of the metal and spreads outward. I don't know how you remove corrosion from a coin and also stabilize its surface without physically removing the metal OR leaving behind some type of chemical coating to keep the corrosion from spreading.

As for corrosion on a coin, I am not sure 100% if that is a one way street with no way out. Meaning, once it starts if no matter what is done that eventually the corrosion will continue to spread and eventually consume the coin. I am sure if left unchecked that will be the result. I am not sure, however, if conservation is only slowing that process down to an extreme (ie, thousands of years) or if it actually halts it at where it is at when the coin is conserved. I do know once there is corrosion on a coin, no matter what NCS does to it, it will be graded by NGC as Details - Corrosion. NCS does not have a magic wand that restores a coin to its former state before any damage occurred and that includes deep staining from toning or other damage, scratches, corrosion, dings, and previous cleanings. Once that original surface is damaged, it cannot be undone.

That said, that is why NGC adds no special remark to any of the slabs. As far as that goes, once the coin comes back to NGC from NCS, the grader has no idea that the coin had been sent for conservation. It comes to the graders table as any other coin does and gets graded based upon its merits at the time the grader looks at it. Also, even with conservation, I don't think there is any 100% iron clad guarantee that fifty or a hundred years from now a conserved coin cannot redevelop problems while in the slab. I would say conservation, however, is preferred to have done as putting a coin in a slab with problems is not going to make the problems any less just by slabbing it. Make sense?

You seem to be hung up on the price charged for conservation. I am sure that any conservation performed will be done to the best that is currently known. And keep in mind they have to do different things for different coins, just as each coin can be considered "unique" so must the conservation. Gold has to be conserved different than silver different than copper, etc. as well as each coin having different surface issues. Why there is a difference in the charge for conservation of 4%FMV for an expensive coin versus $25 or $35 or even less for less value coins, I do not know. But, any company that does crappier work just because the customer isn't paying out the nose and good work for those that pay out the you know what, to me wont be in business too long. Even someone with a low end coin who doesn't have to pay a lot for conservation can leave reviews. If they get their modern back and the review (which could even be just on this forum) reads like "I sent my coin in for conservation and it came back and looks like they didn't do anything to it." or, "I got my coin back and it still has the same spots on it and even has a scratch on it that wasn't there before.", that isn't going to do well for NCS in the future to remain in business. In the coin business, especially nowadays, word gets around. They need to do a good job one everyone's coin. not just the ones that are paying a lot. It is called integrity.

 

[hr1704]

On 12/17/2023 at 4:56 AM, J P M said:

OK, never clean your coins.

C'mon, no capital letters or exclamation points?  Are you sure you're a seasoned veteran?  I'll bet you only have 30 years of experience - max.

[powermad5000]

On 12/17/2023 at 2:17 PM, hr1704 said:

C'mon, no capital letters or exclamation points?  Are you sure you're a seasoned veteran?  I'll bet you only have 30 years of experience - max.

He has more years than that. He's just not the type of guy to use shouty capitals.

Edited December 17, 2023 by powermad5000

[VKurtB]

“Physical” vs. “Chemical”. Virtually ALL (all means ALL) physical cleaning is a major no-no. The vast majority of chemical only treatment is okay. Note the difference. “Virtually all” is NOT the same as “vast majority”. There are more ways to injure a coin chemically than to safely clean one physically.  
 

Example: EZest WILL damage silver coins. My Eastman Kodak “juice” does not and has not. EZest used hydrochloric acid. The Kodak stuff uses citric acid.

Edited December 17, 2023 by VKurtB

[hr1704]

On 12/17/2023 at 10:41 AM, VKurtB said:

If you really can’t bring yourself to play it straight, this works.

NGC is practically incentivizing us to do it.  I'm guessing most already do. It seems like you're a sucker if you don't.  I say go ahead and do it guilt-free.

[VKurtB]

On 12/17/2023 at 2:41 PM, hr1704 said:

NGC is practically incentivizing us to do it.  I'm guessing most already do. It seems like you're a sucker if you don't.  I say go ahead and do it guilt-free.

You fit right in with the majority of coin people - unethical scammers. 

[hr1704]

On 12/17/2023 at 12:43 PM, VKurtB said:

You fit right in with the majority of coin people - unethical scammers. 

You're right.  I'm just a beginner and I've already been pushed into the dark side.  I blame NGC... and all the dealers who were quick to tell me all my coins were junk and only worth melt value.

Edited December 18, 2023 by hr1704

[powermad5000]

Nobody pushed you anywhere. You spend your money as you want to spend your money. As I have said way back in this thread and now in another resurrected thread, you need to decide for yourself if you want to send coins to NCS. It is NOT a requirement of grading.

[VKurtB]

On 12/17/2023 at 2:46 PM, hr1704 said:

You're right.  I'm just a beginner and I've already been pushed into the dark side.  I blame NGC... and all the dealers who were quick to tell me all my coins were junk and only work melt value.

The sad truth is that TO THEM, the vast majority of ALL coins are worth only melt. You need to understand that and act accordingly. This is especially true for nearly ALL gold. 

[hr1704]

On 12/17/2023 at 12:07 PM, powermad5000 said:

Why there is a difference in the charge for conservation of 4%FMV for an expensive coin versus $25 or $35 or even less for less value coins, I do not know.

OK, here is my official review for NGC conservation:  You did a good job, but something seriously stinks about this 4% FMV charge.

[hr1704]

On 12/17/2023 at 1:07 PM, VKurtB said:

The sad truth is that TO THEM, the vast majority of ALL coins are worth only melt. You need to understand that and act accordingly. This is especially true for nearly ALL gold. 

hmmm... I don't know about that.  I've discovered that if I walk in and show them my slabbed PR64 5 sovereign coin FIRST, I'll get a entirely different response on the rest of my unslabbed coins.

[VKurtB]

On 12/17/2023 at 3:33 PM, hr1704 said:

OK, here is my official review for NGC conservation:  You did a good job, but something seriously stinks about this 4% FMV charge.

I wonder why having a coin conserved even occurred to you. That makes me suspect a problem. 

[hr1704]

On 12/17/2023 at 1:39 PM, VKurtB said:

I wonder why having a coin conserved even occurred to you. That makes me suspect a problem. 

What? Why?

[VKurtB]

On 12/17/2023 at 3:38 PM, hr1704 said:

hmmm... I don't know about that.  I've discovered that if I walk in and show them my slabbed PR64 5 sovereign coin FIRST, I'll get an entirely different response on the rest of my unslabbed coins.

This is possibly true for a Brit specialist. I attend very many public coin auctions, in person. Most of the bidders are dealers. They will typically only bid up material in which they specialize. A British dealer will bid up nice sovereigns, but allow French and Swiss go for pure melt. Who is there matters. 

[VKurtB]

On 12/17/2023 at 3:41 PM, hr1704 said:

What? Why?

I have never once asked for conservation. Twice, NGC has suggested it. They always will, if they think it will help. I’ve had over 400 coins slabbed. Only twice did THEY suggest conservation, I never did. 

[VKurtB]

Just to be clear, the PRIMARY reason conservation is done is the removal of organic contaminants, and NOT CORROSION!!! Corrosion is nearly never remedied. 

[hr1704]

On 12/17/2023 at 1:44 PM, VKurtB said:

I have never once asked for conservation. Twice, NGC has suggested it. They always will, if they think it will help. I’ve had over 400 coins slabbed. Only twice did THEY suggest conservation, I never did. 

I noticed some coins were hazy and had orange spots on them.  I then read about PVC residue and copper spots and conservation.  That's it.

[powermad5000]

On 12/17/2023 at 3:44 PM, VKurtB said:

I have never once asked for conservation. Twice, NGC has suggested it. They always will, if they think it will help. I’ve had over 400 coins slabbed. Only twice did THEY suggest conservation, I never did.

In your case @VKurtB, you are way ahead of most when it comes to this area. I am of the plain water or nothing department. The OP is on about the same level as me (but I would not even do the ammonia thing). I mentioned in the other thread that I have roughly 500 slabs and only sent in roughly 20 coins for conservation for my own reasons. Only two were requested by NGC for PVC contamination. I was making the point that conservation is not an "umbrella" thing and it is definitely not a thing that you should send all coins to NCS first.

It is just that the OP seems to have an issue with the 4%FMV criteria and that I cannot figure out why there is a beef with it as conservation is an elective procedure. If you don't like the 4%, then don't conserve is where I went in this discussion.

[hr1704]

On 12/17/2023 at 2:00 PM, powermad5000 said:

It is just that the OP seems to have an issue with the 4%FMV criteria and that I cannot figure out why there is a beef with it as conservation is an elective procedure. If you don't like the 4%, then don't conserve is where I went in this discussion.

Well it's ALL elective.  Conservation is elective, grading is elective, coin collection is elective.  I think it's our duty as consumers of this service to call them out when something stinks.  4% FMV stinks.  And if I feel it stinks, it makes me want to game their system.  That's were I went in this discussion.

[VKurtB]

On 12/17/2023 at 3:59 PM, hr1704 said:

I noticed some coins were hazy and had orange spots on them.  I then read about PVC residue and copper spots and conservation.  That's it.

Hmm. I never considered conservation for copper spots. Should be interesting. 

[VKurtB]

On 12/17/2023 at 4:00 PM, powermad5000 said:

In your case @VKurtB, you are way ahead of most when it comes to this area. I am of the plain water or nothing department. The OP is on about the same level as me (but I would not even do the ammonia thing). I mentioned in the other thread that I have roughly 500 slabs and only sent in roughly 20 coins for conservation for my own reasons. Only two were requested by NGC for PVC contamination. I was making the point that conservation is not an "umbrella" thing and it is definitely not a thing that you should send all coins to NCS first.

It is just that the OP seems to have an issue with the 4%FMV criteria and that I cannot figure out why there is a beef with it as conservation is an elective procedure. If you don't like the 4%, then don't conserve is where I went in this discussion.

Agreed. 100%. You can seldom go wrong waiting to be offered NCS.

[VKurtB]

On 12/17/2023 at 4:15 PM, hr1704 said:

Well it's ALL elective.  Conservation is elective, grading is elective, coin collection is elective.  I think it's our duty as consumers of this service to call them out when something stinks.  4% FMV stinks.  And if I feel it stinks, it makes me want to game their system.  That's were I went in this discussion.

4% is tough to take if something goes wrong. They take no liability. 

[VKurtB]

On 12/17/2023 at 4:00 PM, powermad5000 said:

In your case @VKurtB, you are way ahead of most when it comes to this area. I am of the plain water or nothing department. The OP is on about the same level as me (but I would not even do the ammonia thing). I mentioned in the other thread that I have roughly 500 slabs and only sent in roughly 20 coins for conservation for my own reasons. Only two were requested by NGC for PVC contamination. I was making the point that conservation is not an "umbrella" thing and it is definitely not a thing that you should send all coins to NCS first.

It is just that the OP seems to have an issue with the 4%FMV criteria and that I cannot figure out why there is a beef with it as conservation is an elective procedure. If you don't like the 4%, then don't conserve is where I went in this discussion.

Well, there’s extra virgin olive oil, and mineral oil. Early American Coppers collectors literally spray a very soft brush with a very light oil and gently “touch” their coins. 

Edited December 17, 2023 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

On 12/17/2023 at 3:59 PM, hr1704 said:

I noticed some coins were hazy and had orange spots on them.  I then read about PVC residue and copper spots and conservation.  That's it.

Proofs? If not, haze is difficult to see. PVC is a classic “remediation by acetone” fix. I never had a copper spot to consider. 

[hr1704]

On 12/17/2023 at 2:17 PM, VKurtB said:

Hmm. I never considered conservation for copper spots. Should be interesting. 

Yep, copper spots are gone now.

It looks like YOU learned something from ME today.  You're welcome!  

[hr1704]

On 12/17/2023 at 2:38 PM, VKurtB said:

Proofs? If not, haze is difficult to see. PVC is a classic “remediation by acetone” fix. I never had a copper spot to consider. 

I had 2 proofs and 1 not.  The not-proof definitely had haze but it wasn't as visible.  I have more now with haze and copper spots.

The one "melter" I have is a proof coin and I used ammonia instead of acetone.  It had the most haze and now it's mirror-like in the fields.  I was amazed how much it changed.  It's one of these:
https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/france-10-francs-km-p459-1972-cuid-1129159-duid-1266746
I don't think it's a melter anymore.