grading tier question 1 1

[hr1704]

I've seen this cut/paste answer to previous questions from NGC about grading tiers in the NGC forum:

Quote

The value we ask you for is an insurance value, a number you would feel comfortable with in terms of a replacement value if your coin was lost or damaged while with us. We encourage you to be conservative as we do not reimburse you if you over-value your coin. If your coin was grossly under-valued, we reserve the right to bump it to the appropriate tier.

 

I'm trying to figure out which grading tier I should choose.  I have a gold coin and I want conservation also:

1. If I set the value at $3000, I list the fee prices as $40 (standard tier) + $35 (NCS gold tier) = $75.  If it's lost, they reimburse $3000.
2. If they think it's actually worth $6000, they bump up the fees to $80 (express) + $240 (4% fair value) = $320.  If it's lost, they reimburse what? $6000?  $3000?
3. If I think it's worth $12000, I list the fee prices as $80 (express) + $480 (4% fair value) = $560.  If it's lost, they reimburse $6000?
    

I have several gold coins in these price ranges.  It seems like I should set them all at $3000.  Is NGC making a lot of extra money on people who don't realize the problem with #3?  They already fooled me on my first submission, I don't want to make the same mistake again.

Edited December 15, 2023 by hr1704

[powermad5000]

Hello and welcome!

It really depends on what you think the value actually is. If you think they are worth $6,000 each and you submit them as $3,000 each, and it gets lost/stolen/burned-in-a-tragic-plane-crash, you will get $3,000 each.

If you submit them as $3,000 each, knowing they are worth $6,000 each, if they get lost you get $3,000 each but, if the NGC graders think they are worth $6,000 each, then accounting charges you the difference in tiers and they get bumped up to the next tier. So you know, you can submit for example a dozen coins and only one might get bumped up to the next tier. They don't bump the entire submission number because only one coin should be in the next highest tier. Also to note, if they get lost in shipping to them, they have not been graded so you do not get returned any of the submission costs (where the declared value is essential if they are lost).

I have not had any coins lost (yet, thank goodness) in about 8 years of shipments. I have only had one coin bumped up once. Yes, NGC will make a lot of money off of people who send their coins in thinking they are worth thousands of dollars each only to get them back and they are only worth $1000 each or less or even worse less than $300.

You need to be confident in your self grading before you submit so as not to face this problem.

If you are confident, then be honest with yourself as to what tier it falls in. If it is borderline, then always default to the lower tier. If you have never submit before, then I would submit all in the lowest tier you are able to and let NGC bump what they want until you get a feel for grades as they relate to values.

You could also post one of the coins here with clear, cropped photos of both sides and ask the members here on their opinion of the grade and value.

[Sandon]

    As the coins you want to submit are gold and you believe them to be worth no more than $3,000, the least expensive tiers in which to submit them would be the "Gold" tier ($35 per coin), which is for all gold coins valued at no more than $3,000; or if the coins are dated 1965 or after, the "Modern" tier ($19 per coin), which is for all such coins valued up to $3,000. See NGC Services and Fees | NGC (ngccoin.com). For Modern (1965 or after) coins, the NCS fee is $12. See NCS Conservation Services and Fees | NGC (ngccoin.com).

   You should value each coin at its retail list value, such as on the NGC Price Guide, at whatever grade you believe it is most likely to receive. If you don't know enough to determine this, you should either consult with someone who does or refrain from submitting coins to grading services. (You could post photos here, and we could give you some idea of the likely grade range and value.)

   I highly doubt that NGC or the shipper would automatically pay you the amount you put down on the submission form in the event the coins were lost or destroyed. If NGC had already graded the coins, your reimbursement would likely be based upon their market value at the grades awarded. If they had not yet been graded, you would likely have to prove their probable market value based on such evidence as photos and invoices.  I always photograph coins that I submit.

   If you undervalue a coin, in my experience there is some leeway before NGC bumps the coin to the next tier. I have submitted two coins in the "Economy" ($300 maximum value) tier that NGC gave higher than expected grades in which they were worth about $500 each and had no additional charge. However, I submitted a 1795 half cent with surface roughness that I knew would be "details" graded--I thought VF or at most XF details--under the "Standard" tier, which NGC graded "AU Details, Corroded" and bumped up to the $80 "Express" tier. If you reasonably believe that the coins are worth no more than $3,000 each, you should use whichever of the "Gold" or "Modern" tiers is appropriate.

[Mike Meenderink]

This sounds like Pre Traumatic Coin Stress Disorder which is very serious. Get help immediately as this can often morph into Post Traumatic Coin Stress Disorder rather quickly.

[RWB]

TPGs should never be involved in "pricing" a coin. That is not their job, and never was.

It is the customer's responsibility to research the FMV of their coin, and report that for insurance purposes.

[hr1704]

On 12/15/2023 at 10:30 AM, RWB said:

TPGs should never be involved in "pricing" a coin. That is not their job, and never was.

It is the customer's responsibility to research the FMV of their coin, and report that for insurance purposes.

haha, is this a bot?  What a total NPC response.

 

 

 

Thanks for your input @powermad5000 @Sandon

Edited December 16, 2023 by hr1704

[Sandon]

On 12/15/2023 at 7:33 PM, hr1704 said:

haha, is this a bot? 

   Actually, he's Roger W. Burdette, a well-known numismatic researcher and author whom the American Numismatic Association awarded this year's "Numismatist of the Year" award. See Roger Burdette: The Numismatist of the Year - US, World, and Ancient Coins - NGC Coin Collectors Chat Boards.  Not everyone on the forum agrees with all of his opinions, but I agree with the opinion he stated here. 

 

[RWB]

On 12/15/2023 at 7:33 PM, hr1704 said:

haha, is this a bot?  What a total NPC response.

The purposes of all the TPGs were to authenticate coins and medals, and to provide a uniform and consistent description of the condition of an item. The idea of "third party grader" (TPG) implies objectivity and an absence of financial opinion. That is, a TPG must have zero stake in a coin's condition or value. The concept of "value" or "price" is, as in most cases, best left to the free market where buyer and seller will negotiate.

Does that make it clearer hr1704?

[hr1704]

OMG I would swear this is a chatGTP bot.  You're giving obvious information for a question I didn't even ask.  Powermad5000 and Sandon understood the question and dilemma.  They gave knowledgeable and insightful answers that will help me and anyone else who might be wondering the same.

You're not going to win any awards for giving helpful answers in a forum.

[VKurtB]

On 12/15/2023 at 12:25 AM, powermad5000 said:

You need to be confident in your self grading before you submit so as not to face this problem.

Translation: Rank beginners should not be submitting coins at all. They should work through a dealer. There is NO SUBSTITUTE for knowledge and experience, NONE WHATSOEVER!

Edited December 16, 2023 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

On 12/16/2023 at 1:30 PM, hr1704 said:

You're not going to win any awards for giving helpful answers in a forum.

That’s not his job, nor is it mine. Besides, “helpfulness” is completely in the eyes of the beholder. Nobody owes you anything in this hobby, and that’s the truth. You are OBVIOUSLY “jumping the gun” in submitting coins with too little knowledge and experience.  I’ve been collecting faaaaaaaaar longer than TPG firms have existed. @RWB’s answer in this thread was very insightful. 

Edited December 16, 2023 by VKurtB

[hr1704]

On 12/16/2023 at 11:59 AM, VKurtB said:

That’s not his job, nor is it mine. Besides, “helpfulness” is completely in the eyes of the beholder. Nobody owes you anything in this hobby, and that’s the truth. You are OBVIOUSLY “jumping the gun” in submitting coins with too little knowledge and experience.  I’ve been collecting faaaaaaaaar longer than TPG firms have existed. @RWB’s answer in this thread was very insightful. 

I *DID* consult an expert dealer and I *DID* accurately value the coin.  The point is that I could have saved myself a lot of money on grading+conservation if I would have submitted it at $3000 and taken the very-slight gamble on it getting lost or have NGC bump it up.  That was the question.

So either read the question carefully and try to understand what is being asked (like Powermad5000 and Sandon did) or quit wasting your own time scolding me for something you don't understand.

[VKurtB]

On 12/16/2023 at 2:16 PM, hr1704 said:

I *DID* consult an expert dealer and I *DID* accurately value the coin.  The point is that I could have saved myself a lot of money on grading+conservation if I would have submitted it at $3000 and taken the very-slight gamble on it getting lost or have NGC bump it up.  That was the question.

So either read the question carefully and try to understand what is being asked (like Powermad5000 and Sandon did) or quit wasting your own time scolding me for something you don't understand.

I’ve read literally HUNDREDS of questions just like yours on this forum. “How do I choose the declared value?” You do what everyone else does. You answer the question to the best of your ability WITHOUT REGARD TO “how can I work the system?” Clear?

[hr1704]

On 12/16/2023 at 12:27 PM, VKurtB said:

I’ve read literally HUNDREDS of questions just like yours on this forum. “How do I choose the declared value?” You do what everyone else does. 

Well thanks for getting closer to sorta answering the original question.  A helpful answer from a seasoned veteran may be to post a link to the same exact question being answered before.  I did search the forum before posting and found the cut/paste answer from NGC which raised all the other questions I asked.  I did find some other posts that were close but not really the same.

 

On 12/16/2023 at 12:27 PM, VKurtB said:

You answer the question to the best of your ability WITHOUT REGARD TO “how can I work the system?”

Why not work the system?  NGC seem to be borderline unethical here.  They will bump a coin to a higher tier if they think the value is higher.  I doubt they do the opposite if they think the value is lower... they happily take the money.

And why does it cost twice as much to grade a $4000 coin as it does to grade a $3000 coin?  Do they half a s s grading the lower tier coins?  Do they just want a piece of the action?  I'm sure there are insurance and liability issues with higher value coins but the current system kinda stink of scam.  I think it's totally fair and helpful to point these things out in this forum.

Edited December 16, 2023 by hr1704

[VKurtB]

On 12/16/2023 at 3:00 PM, hr1704 said:

Why not work the system?

Simple answer. Ethics. There doesn't need to be a better answer. Be scrupulously ethical in ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING YOU DO, or otherwise, you're a crook.

[VKurtB]

On 12/16/2023 at 3:00 PM, hr1704 said:

And why does it cost twice as much to grade a $4000 coin as it does to grade a $3000 coin?

Better coins require more experienced and higher paid graders. There are tiers of GRADERS, too.

[hr1704]

On 12/16/2023 at 1:03 PM, VKurtB said:

Simple answer. Ethics. There doesn't need to be a better answer. Be scrupulously ethical in ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING YOU DO, or otherwise, you're a crook.

Fair enough.  However, if I value a coin too high, NGC will happily cheat me.  If I value a coin too low, NGC will bump it up.  I've cheated nobody. 

[VKurtB]

On 12/16/2023 at 3:16 PM, hr1704 said:

Fair enough.  However, if I value a coin too high, NGC will happily cheat me.  If I value a coin too low, NGC will bump it up.  I've cheated nobody. 

Have enough experience and knowledge to NOT overvalue it or undervalue it, and your problem goes away, right?

[hr1704]

On 12/16/2023 at 1:33 PM, VKurtB said:

Have enough experience and knowledge to NOT overvalue it or undervalue it, and your problem goes away, right?

So only people with X number of years experience and knowledge should be allowed to have coins graded?  Or I could simply estimate low and let NGC bump it up.

[VKurtB]

I HAVE undervalued some coins in my history, but that's because I GROSSLY underestimated their grades. I set one value as if I were sending an MS64 coin, and it came back MS67*. It made it back with no problem.

[VKurtB]

On 12/16/2023 at 3:38 PM, hr1704 said:

So only people with X number of years experience and knowledge should be allowed to have coins graded?  Or I could simply estimate low and let NGC bump it up.

This is quite literally the only way grading was done for the first 18-20 years or so of grading by the top-2 firms. You had to work through an authorized dealer, who would act as a "gate keeper" to the grading world. And NOT JUST ANY DEALER would do. They had to be vetted and authorized by PCGS and NGC.

Edited December 16, 2023 by VKurtB

[hr1704]

On 12/16/2023 at 1:05 PM, VKurtB said:

Better coins require more experienced and higher paid graders. There are tiers of GRADERS, too.

I didn't know that. 

Maybe coins in a lower tier should be labeled "graded by a less experienced grader".   Yea, somewhere we're losing confidence in the system.

Edited December 16, 2023 by hr1704

[VKurtB]

On 12/16/2023 at 3:42 PM, hr1704 said:

Maybe coins in a lower tier should be labeled "graded by a less experienced grader".   Yea, somewhere we're losing confidence in the system.

Yep, why do you think sending in "moderns" only costs $19? Those graders lack experience, are FORCED to grade INCREDIBLY quickly, and many quickly burn out. On the other hand, graders who are qualified to grade foreign coins which are truly rare are worth nearly any asking price. NGC is fairly DESPERATE to recruit them.

Edited December 17, 2023 by VKurtB

[Mike Meenderink]

I love it when the lights go on in the attic. These moments are priceless. I have been overwatching reading this post and waiting for the enlightenment which has now begun with this padawan. Knowing is knowledge but wisdom is knowledge from experience. What the OP will find here is wisdom. We only want to help but sometimes tough love is required to "re ground" some OPs in the reality of the community and market. Cheers and good luck.

Edited December 17, 2023 by Mike Meenderink

[VKurtB]

I saw this in an unrelated website, and I thought it applies well to numismatics:

“Credulity and falsehood copulate, and give birth to opinion.”

[hr1704]

I think you need to re-read the post then.  I consider myself correct the entire time.  Although @VKurtB definitely helped me have an appreciation with some of the inner workings and problems at coin grading companies, the takeaways from this are:
1) NGC won't think twice about keeping the money if you over-estimate the value
2) It's better to under-estimate the value and just let them NGC bump it to another tier if necessary
This seems like good advice for beginners and seasoned veterans.

[hr1704]

I never really cared anyway about paying the extra $40 for Express tier.  Especially now that I know we have noobs possibly botching the grading of coins less than $3k.

What really bothered me was the cost of conservation.  That's a whole 'nuther can of worms for many reasons.  I feel I really got burned on that.  Is there a justification for charging 4% FMV just to dip a coin in acetone?  Yea, I know it probably more involved than that.

[Sandon]

On 12/16/2023 at 4:16 PM, hr1704 said:

if I value a coin too high, NGC will happily cheat me. 

  How is NGC "cheating" you if you overvalued the coin?  Should they overgrade the coin to make its retail list value equivalent to your valuation, so that the person who buys it from you is cheated instead?

   You are paying a third-party grading service for its personnels' purportedly unbiased opinion as to the authenticity and grade of the coins that you submit. Grading, especially of unworn coins, is particularly subjective. If they were to reduce the fee otherwise you agreed to pay for giving the coin a lower grade than you expected, this would at least potentially create a conflict of interest in the form of an incentive to overgrade. The tier pricing system creates some risk of such a conflict in itself, but the alternative would be a flat fee system of likely $50 or more per coin, which would make it unfeasible to submit many lower value coins that--for whatever reason--many collectors want to submit.

    If NGC does find that you submitted a coin under the "Standard" tier deserves a grade with a market value of, say, $5,000, would it really be unfair for you to pay the $80 "Express" tier grading fee?

   If your coins are a "borderline" case that could grade in either of two tiers, I, too, would choose the lower tier. I would not submit coins that I know should grade well within the "Express" tier in the "Standard" tier. There is always a risk of loss, especially these days by delivery services, and you won't be able to claim an amount greater than your declared value. There is also the at least hypothetical risk that you will get only what you paid for.

On 12/17/2023 at 12:05 AM, hr1704 said:

What really bothered me was the cost of conservation.

    Unless your coins clearly have some sort of residue or surface contaminants that, unlike corrosion or damage, could possibly be removed through "conservation", I would not submit them with a request for NCS Conservation. "If NCS believes that conservation will not benefit a coin submitted . . ., it will be transferred to NGC for grading and a $5 per coin NCS evaluation fee will apply." NCS Conservation Services and Fees | NGC (ngccoin.com).

    I have never requested conservation, but NGC contacted me about my first submission to inform me that one of my coins should be "conserved" to remove "residue"; otherwise, it would not be graded.  The coin, a 1913 Variety One Buffalo nickel, had some spots but also had rainbow peripheral toning of the sort that some collectors find highly desirable. I was curious and authorized them to proceed. The result was that the spots were replaced by pits, the toning was much paler, and the coin was graded "Uncirculated Details, Cleaned." I had spent more on "conservation" and grading than the coin had cost me in the first place.   

[hr1704]

On 12/16/2023 at 9:48 PM, Sandon said:

Should they overgrade the coin to make its retail list value equivalent to your valuation, so that the person who buys it from you is cheated instead?

I never meant to suggest that the price I pay for the grading should have anything to do with resulting grade.  I think we all agree on that.

 

On 12/16/2023 at 9:48 PM, Sandon said:

Unless your coins clearly have some sort of residue or surface contaminants that, unlike corrosion or damage, could possibly be removed through "conservation", I would not submit them with a request for NCS Conservation. "If NCS believes that conservation will not benefit a coin submitted . . ., it will be transferred to NGC for grading and a $5 per coin NCS evaluation fee will apply." NCS Conservation Services and Fees | NGC (ngccoin.com).

My coins clearly did have a residue.  One had a couple copper spots on the back. 

NCS must have believed that conservation would benefit the coin.  Either that or they just conserve everything to make an extra buck.

I think they did a good job.  They look much better now and I would believe it increased the grade, but I'll never know for sure.  But I have another one now which had even worse residue.  My dealer says it's just a melter and told me to dip it in ammonia.  I did that and it turned out perfectly shiny, like new.  So my question remains: Is there a justification for charging 4% FMV just to dip a coin in acetone/ammonia?  Yes, I know some will be more complicated than others.

[powermad5000]

There is much more to conservation than just dipping a coin in acetone. If it were that simple, NCS would not exist and sales of acetone at Home Depot or Menards would be peaking as the entire coin collecting community would be dipping every coin they own in acetone to "improve" its appearance.

I personally do not dip my coins in acetone. Or anything else for that matter. I have rinsed a few under plain warm water but that is about it.

I have, however, submitted at least 20 coins for conservation and have had two that I received a message from NGC that if the coins were not sent to NCS, they would not be graded. Those two were due to PVC contamination. Of the other 20 or so, I have had four of them returned and been charged only the $5 inspection fee. They do not conserve everything. One of the returned coins was a Morgan dollar already slabbed by NGC. I wanted the black toning removed (the way it was toning it almost looked like black spray paint overspray). The return reason was that it was not a good candidate for conservation and should conservation take place it would have significantly reduced the grade. So, that coin remains with its black toning. I also just recently submitted four coins to NCS. One of them was a 1874 Trade Dollar. An expensive uncirculated one. That one was returned with an NCS refusal to conserve as they determined conservation would have no effect on the surface and it was stable in the submitted state.

I am basically telling you this because conservation is a specialized field and is more than just dipping a coin in a solvent. I would ask you, would the 4% be worth it for you to pay to have a coin with stable surfaces that after twenty years in the slab still looks like the day you got it back, or is that too much to have a coin in the slab in twenty years develop unattractive spots and undesirable toning? Just because the coin is in a plastic holder does not mean the coin cannot change while in the slab. We have had a couple posts on this forum about proof coins that developed spots after being slabbed, some of them years after they were submitted so it can happen. I also had a silver Ike dollar that developed a spot a year after I got it back while it was in the NGC holder. I resubmitted the Ike and now have it back without the ugly spot. I don't think an acetone dip would have removed whatever foreign substance caused the spot and might actually have ruined the original surface. I am now very happy with the Ike. I personally have no problem paying whatever they want to charge to have a coin with an improved appearance and a stabilized surface without causing damage to the coin.

Unless NGC contacts you that they will not grade your coin because of a conservation issue, if the cost is an issue, NCS conservation is not required so maybe just don't elect to have your coins conserved in the future.