GRADED COINS NOT MATCHING PAST PERCENTAGES 1 1

[JGGLAD]

SENT 10 SETS OF REVERSE PROOF MORGAN PEACE SILVER DOLLARS, EXPECTING THEM TO GRADE LIKE THE ONES GRADED EARLIER. KNOW THIS IS NOT A EXACT SCIENCE BUT PERCENTAGES LOOKED LIKE 40 TO 1 FOR GRADING 70 FOR PEACE DOLLARS. THEY ARE RETURNING NOW AND NONE OF PEACE DOLLARS GRADED 70 WHAT ARE THE ODDS

[Mike Meenderink]

Welcome to the wonderful world of coin collecting and submission speculation. Nothing I repeat nothing is "for sure" in this hobby or career. Your graders are among the same that would have graded and QC'd your other coins at NGC since these people are long time employees of the company. There is no such thing as playing the odds in a bulk submission that is not prescreened. Most roll or bulk same type date submissions are not going have 70s just because they are in original packs or govt packaging. A final evaluation of the strike of the coin after all luster and surface characteristics have been graded is what differentiates a 69 from a 70. Obviously, this group of reverse proofs was not struck as well as the others you sent in possibly later in the run when the dies were worn or had been attended to. Keep trying and keep the faith. I'm sure you'll do ok with the ones you have if you decide to sell. I feel your pain. Cheers and good luck.

Edited December 6, 2023 by Mike Meenderink

[Sandon]

   Welcome to the NGC chat board.

   Hopefully, the grading services do not have preconceived percentages of submitted coins that should receive any particular numerical grade. Each coin should be graded on its own merits without regard to the grade given to other coins in the submission or other coins of the same issue.

   I am disheartened that so many modern collectors' issues are removed from their attractive and protective mint packaging, which is part of their historical context, and sent to grading services primarily, if not solely, for the purpose of getting the number "70" printed on a little paper tag, with those pieces that are found to only merit the number "69" or--horrors--"68" essentially treated as "culls" or "rejects".  These grades are essentially indistinguishable from each other and should all be classified as "Superb Gem" Uncirculated or Proof and priced the same. 

   I maintain that the "70" grade is nothing more than a marketing gimmick.  I suspect that future generations of collectors will prefer these coins in their original packaging, which for some heavily "slabbed" issues may well be worth a premium. 

[RWB]

On 12/6/2023 at 7:48 PM, Sandon said:

   I am disheartened that so many modern collectors' issues are removed from their attractive and protective mint packaging, which is part of their historical context, and sent to grading services primarily, if not solely, for the purpose of getting the number "70" printed on a little paper tag, with those pieces that are found to only merit the number "69" or--horrors--"68" essentially treated as "culls" or "rejects".  These grades are essentially indistinguishable from each other and should all be classified as "Superb Gem" Uncirculated or Proof and priced the same. 

   I maintain that the "70" grade is nothing more than a marketing gimmick.  I suspect that future generations of collectors will prefer these coins in their original packaging, which for some heavily "slabbed" issues may well be worth a premium. 

Yep! Sandon is right and entirely realistic in cutting through the hyped nonsense.

Now, yes, Virginia, there is a "70" graded ('perfect as struck') Santa coin out there -- possibly several of them. But that identifier is meaningless, and has been since thief Sheldon cooked it up to explain large cent coin prices.

Coins kept in US Mint packaging can, for the most part, be as readily and accurately graded as ones removed and stuck in a TPG's plastic -- except you've spent an enormous percentage of purchase price on "paper 'n' plastic," and enjoyed the opportunity to introduce dirt, dust, spots, soda bubbles, and fungi to your prized coin.

Enjoy your coins and collect for that enjoyment. Anyway, the way TPGs are slipping grades, all your coins might soon be "MS-70."

Edited December 7, 2023 by RWB

[VKurtB]

On 12/6/2023 at 11:56 AM, JGGLAD said:

SENT 10 SETS OF REVERSE PROOF MORGAN PEACE SILVER DOLLARS, EXPECTING THEM TO GRADE LIKE THE ONES GRADED EARLIER. KNOW THIS IS NOT A EXACT SCIENCE BUT PERCENTAGES LOOKED LIKE 40 TO 1 FOR GRADING 70 FOR PEACE DOLLARS. THEY ARE RETURNING NOW AND NONE OF PEACE DOLLARS GRADED 70 WHAT ARE THE ODDS

This is NOT hard to understand. The bulk wholesale dealers buy up huge amounts of coins and send them in with instructions to ONLY SLAB 70-grade coins. 69's are not slabbed, but returned. They are then sold off to other whiolesalers. This creates an artificial rate of 70 coins. Then collectors send in theirs and get mostly 69 grades. Want 70's? Reliably? You have to play the wholesaler game and pay through the nose. Ain't the coin market grand? Here's the upshot: FORGET CHASING 70-GRADE COINS. IT"S A CON JOB. The collector never wins

Edited December 7, 2023 by VKurtB

[powermad5000]

Any coin you send in for grading may not grade the way you perceive the coin to grade using your self grading. I would say 90% of the time when I make submissions that I am "off", close but a little off. While this is not a problem mostly, it can be on coins where one grade point either way can result in a gain or loss of $1000 or more.

As for the topic of 70 graded coins, I have stated before in another thread that I feel to the naked eye, one cannot distinguish between a 69 or a 70. So, the opinion from this collector is that if it is a coin that I want, I have no issue with heading straight for a 69 and not paying the premiums people pay to have the 70 on the label. Imho, coins graded 69 are still beautiful specimens that are pleasing to the eye. It is a mindset that makes one think 69 is a "junk" coin because it doesn't say 70 on the label. Take one of my favorite series for example, Morgan dollars. There are no graded 70's by any TPG. I am not sure there is even a 69 graded (I may have heard chatter of one being attributed in the past). The 68's are absolutely gorgeous and I would have no problem owning one. Most other series of coins, it is hard to get the 69 grade let alone a 70, but any 69's across many standard US coin issues are going to be really fantastic coins that collectors would be proud to own. So maybe this opinion of mine makes some sense using these examples.

[EagleRJO]

It's not clear why you believed that a given percentage of coins submitted would receive a 70 grade, when it naturally should be expected that they will be graded on the quality of the coins.

And as Kurt was trying to point out many of the better quality coins have already been cherrypicked by dealers and collectors, so I think it makes sense that as time passes fewer high grade coins are left and the percentage of coins graded 70 will go down.

Also, writing posts in all capitals is the equivalent of yelling, and can annoy some reducing the likelihood of receiving good lfeedback.

[JGGLAD]

Thanks for all the posts mainly just looking for insight and venting. Also sorry about the caps easier to read what I type on my phone.

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 12/6/2023 at 12:56 PM, JGGLAD said:

SENT 10 SETS OF REVERSE PROOF MORGAN PEACE SILVER DOLLARS, EXPECTING THEM TO GRADE LIKE THE ONES GRADED EARLIER. KNOW THIS IS NOT A EXACT SCIENCE BUT PERCENTAGES LOOKED LIKE 40 TO 1 FOR GRADING 70 FOR PEACE DOLLARS. THEY ARE RETURNING NOW AND NONE OF PEACE DOLLARS GRADED 70 WHAT ARE THE ODDS

I'm assuming that you bought these direct from the mint when they were first released then sent them in the OGP for grading and if that's the case I am surprised by the results, they speak to the quality of product from the U.S. mint more than anything. Pick a similar NCLT piece from any world mint and I expect the results would be dramatically different. 

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

Sorry for your loss.  I have one coin buddy who tells me that I am "living money on the table" by not chasing Mint products and "making" coins.  However, I have no interest in doing that for coins that I don't really care about (feels too much like work).  Posts like yours make me glad I shy away, but I am sorry that I learn at your expense.  Hopefully, you are more successful in the future to outpace the losses.  Good luck.

[VKurtB]

I sent in some modern pieces (actually TOOK THEM IN, at Baltimore Whitman). 11 coins. I got 6 70’s and 5 69’s. I don’t even have them yet. They’re in FedEx. All have between 80 and 90 percent 70’s in the pop reports. Wholesale dealers with 70-only bulk orders. 

[dprince1138]

Perhaps do a split next time and send half to one vendor and half to another and see what sort of comparative differences there are, if any.

[RWB]

On 12/9/2023 at 1:10 PM, dprince1138 said:

Perhaps do a split next time and send half to one vendor and half to another and see what sort of comparative differences there are, if any.

...or enjoy them as they are and don't throw money at any TPG.

[VKurtB]

On 12/9/2023 at 12:10 PM, dprince1138 said:

Perhaps do a split next time and send half to one vendor and half to another and see what sort of comparative differences there are, if any.

I only use one firm - NGC.

[EagleRJO]

On 12/7/2023 at 6:05 AM, JGGLAD said:

... mainly just looking for insight and venting

I know how frustrating it can be when you don't see anything wrong with a coin and it comes back with less than 70.  But they are very picky and don't hand out 70's like cupcakes.  And for more recent coins from the mint the quality has taken a nosedive.

[VKurtB]

On 12/9/2023 at 9:53 PM, EagleRJO said:

I know how frustrating it can be when you don't see anything wrong with a coin and it comes back with less than 70.  But they are very picky and don't hand out 70's like cupcakes.  And for more recent coins from the mint the quality has taken a nosedive.

The point is that as long as there exists the bulk grading program for dealers and Elite members, one can NEVER KNOW the ACTUAL rate of 70 grades. The pop report can show 90% 70’s, but the 69 and lower grades from bulk orders NEVER ARE COUNTED into the pop report. 

[Just Bob]

On 12/11/2023 at 12:49 PM, VKurtB said:

The point is that as long as there exists the bulk grading program for dealers and Elite members, one can NEVER KNOW the ACTUAL rate of 70 grades. The pop report can show 90% 70’s, but the 69 and lower grades from bulk orders NEVER ARE COUNTED into the pop report. 

Good point