Clearly not as advertised 1 1

[gsarm80]

Hello everyone.  Id love to hear how you would deal with this situation if it happened to you.  I purchased a roll of 1964 "unopened Federal reserve bank of cleveland" half dollars.  When I recieved it I could tell 100% it was in fact opened and gone through.  The reviews of the item also talk about this happen stance but I thought id give it a try.  Sure enough my worries were accurate.  So my question is, what should/can I do about it?  

I havent contacted the seller yet because I wanted to see what you all will advise first.  Thank for your time.

[Coinbuf]

Welcome to the forum, first you should post inquiries like this on the newbie or US coin section of this forum, this part of the forum is for questions or issues with the NGC registry, general questions like yours will be seen by more of the members on those sections I recommended.    As to your question, the term "unopened rolls" is the biggest goose chase scam in numismatics.   The only time I might believe that is if I knew the source myself or saw the dust being blown of the lock box myself right before it was opened.

What to do, if you bought this on ebay you can force a return even if the seller states no returns by using a SNAD claim.   It's a somewhat Richard move as you are admitting that you already suspected what you would find, but the seller has no choice but to accept a return under that scenario.

If you bought it from a different platform than ebay then you will have to contact the seller and see if you can work out a satisfactory solution.   You could also chalk it up as a learning experience, what we like to call tuition.

Edited December 3, 2023 by Coinbuf

[Sandon]

   Welcome to the NGC chat board.   

   It is difficult to prove whether a roll of coins is "original" or "unopened" or even to agree upon just what those terms mean. Similar issues arise with offers of "unsearched" groups of coins. Unsearched by whom and for what?

   Did the roll contain twenty 1964 Kennedy half dollars in uncirculated condition? How did you know it had been "opened and gone through"? What would you have expected to find if the roll had been "unopened", presumably since it had been transferred from a mint bag in the 1960s?

[Greenstang]

This is a hard one to prove. The seller when when says “unopened” simply has to say it has    
been unopened by him and has no previous knowledge of anyone opening it before him.   
 

[JKK]

I would mark it down as tuition, avoid that vendor in the future, and make a stronger vetting effort on vendors in the future. There's no way to prove the allegation. Without proof, no return. I can't see how they make enough money on this to be worth going back and forth with rolls. They would argue that maybe you went through it and now want to send it back because you didn't find glory. It's too nebulous a battle to win.

[RWB]

Common scam and typical response. The OP likely paid above melt but has no meaningful recourse.

FRBs did not roll coins in normal practice. In 1964 they received coin in bags

[EagleRJO]

On 12/3/2023 at 12:33 PM, RWB said:

FRBs did not roll coins in normal practice. In 1964 they received coin in bags

What would the FRBs do with the bags?  Distribute them to local banks without opening them?

[RWB]

On 12/3/2023 at 1:09 PM, EagleRJO said:

What would the FRBs do with the bags?  Distribute them to local banks without opening them?

Yes. Occasionally they split $1,000 bags into small bags for low-demand rural banks. However, it was also common for small banks (1 or 2 offices) to have a "correspondent" relationship with a large bank. Then, the large bank took care of supplying coin and currency, foreign exchange, clearing, and other non-local services. (This was common after the Civil War when  there were thousands of small, rural banks. They ordered coin from their correspondent city bank - such as cents in quantities under $50 - largely because they could send larger orders to the Mints or sub-treasuries, and shipping for silver and gold was was not paid by the Treasury, as it was for minor coins.

These is a separate section on issue and distribution of coins in "Mine to Mint 2."

[powermad5000]

I have been "burned" by the roll game except for one roll of Morgan dollars that was very expensive and I would not risk trying to do again.

Any seller can claim any roll to be "unsearched". The fact of the matter is if you want to get truly technical, anybody could have cherrypicked certain coins before they were rolled. Also, just because it was a bank roll, does not mean the bank rolled all great specimens into one roll. As an example, at low risk and low money, I obtained a bank roll of Lincoln Wheat cents in an auction. Upon opening the roll, there was a lot of well worn coins and one Indian Head cent in the roll. Basically, what I am saying is even if a bank rolled the coins, they did not spend time separating the coins, and if they were rolled by a person who had any interest in coins, they may have cherrypicked the whole batch before rolling the coins. I do not think anyone can lay claim to a roll being unsearched unless it is still in the paper that says US Treasury on it as in a roll I do have of Sacagawea dollars.

Basically, I stopped buying rolls with "enders" on them hoping to get anything good. Another one of my last roll endeavors was a roll of Mercury dimes from a Denver bank, allegedly unsearched. Upon opening the roll, it was clear that this was complete bs. They put a 1916 FSB on one end and a 1944 MS on the other. I submitted the 1916 and it came back as details cleaned. The entire rest of the roll was common dates and mintmarks and in the range of VG to VF. Last time I ever tried the roll game as that left a really bad taste in my mouth.

[EagleRJO]

On 12/3/2023 at 12:33 PM, RWB said:

FRBs did not roll coins in normal practice. In 1964 they received coin in bags ... [This] is a separate section on issue and distribution of coins in "Mine to Mint 2."

That may be an avenue to request a refund if it was listed as a "roll of 1964 unopened Federal Reserve Bank of cleveland half dollars" and the FRB did not issue rolls of coins.  The op may need to purchase your book to quote that, but in the end it might be better to chalk it up as a learning experience related to "unsearched" or "unopened" rolls of coins which typically is a scam.

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

Sorry this happened.  Like stated above, the "unsearched" rolls are almost always searched.  I have now seen all kinds of techniques to make rolls look older and more tattered.  They re-crimp the ends with a small tool to make it look convincing.  YouTube doesn't help either with all the CRH hype videos showing the treasures they "found."

As @Coinbuf said, you can file a claim on eBay.  But, I would probably eat this one, and learn my lesson.  It will be some hassle, and you may want to keep that eBay mojo incase you really need it.  

On a lighter note - welcome.  What do you like to collect?  How long have you been collecting coins? 

Edited December 7, 2023 by The Neophyte Numismatist

[powermad5000]

This is the only type of roll I would say qualifies as unsearched. Anything else, and it is a huge risk to throw good money at the roll game. Just my opinion.

Edited December 11, 2023 by powermad5000

[VKurtB]

“Unsearched”? No such thing, except for Mint wrapped rolls. Now I have lots of solid BU rolls that haven’t been searched BY ME (yet), but I’m not so naive to believe no one searched them. I’ll wait until I’m too sick to get around and search them then.

[EagleRJO]

On 12/7/2023 at 5:30 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

I have now seen all kinds of techniques to make rolls look older and more tattered.

I have also seen modern versions of the wax infused paper for "unsearched" Morgan dollar rolls, to give the appearance of being very old like the attached.  You can buy batches of these old style roll papers today.  And of course the "unsearched" and "original" rolls had the sucker "enders".

[powermad5000]

The $20 Morgan roll I bought that I referenced in this thread, fortunately for me, worked out. Sure, it had two "sucker" CC enders. After opening the roll, there ended up being a total of 4 CC's in it all of which graded out at MS 63, except for one MS 63+. There were several MS 64's, mostly MS 63's, one 62 and one details for cleaned. The dates were very mixed and not all just the super common ones, although apart from the CC's there were no key dates, or other really low mintage but not super common ones either. Even after the cost of submitting them all, I still basically broke even. It was a heck of a way to fill 20 holes in the series. If the seller was somehow trying to take advantage of me, then it was a mistake for them to load the roll with 4 CC's.

It is something I surely would NOT attempt to do again. I'll take that I got lucky on it, but I won't press my luck.

[EagleRJO]

On 12/12/2023 at 1:33 AM, powermad5000 said:

The $20 Morgan roll I bought that I referenced in this thread, fortunately for me, worked out.

You are very lucky it worked out as that almost never happens.

[powermad5000]

Certainly, which is why I try to now relate to others to NOT try to do it. Luck is fickle.

[EagleRJO]

It's usually one CC sucker ender and than a sucker ender date on the other end which when combined together would be a jackpot.  And of course nice shiny BU enders with just common garbage in between.

[J P M]

On 12/12/2023 at 1:59 AM, EagleRJO said:

It's usually one CC sucker ender and than a sucker ender date on the other end which when combined together would be a jackpot.  And of course nice shiny BU enders with just common garbage in between.

 

On 12/12/2023 at 1:46 AM, EagleRJO said:

You are very lucky it worked out as that almost never happens.

4 CC is a plus even lowballs are high priced now. I think the seller would have picked that roll out if he knew there were that many.