So you think you know how to grade a coin? I've been doing it for 25 years and I'm still learning and screwing up. You? Let's talk about the failures and disappointments that come along with the highs and jubilation of submitting raw coins. 1 1

[Mike Meenderink]

Sometimes you can get a bit out in front of yourself. Some coins can produce a kind of out of body experience that may inhibit your subjectivity meters. You know... those coins that you are just so sure will grade above the breakout for the type and series. You have trained all your life for these moments. Hours spent training in the mental gymnasium of numismatic literature and study. Late nights in low light staring at the surfaces of coins under lamp light for hours. Then the moment arrives when that coin you have waited for, the coin that would make your dreams come true is sitting in front of you. It looks great, there is to your "trained" eye no issues or problems that would preclude the coin from your desired straight grade. Then.. it comes back cleaned. Lets talk about your loss. I understand your feelings of loss, trauma and inadequacy. I would like to create this "safe space" to be a "collectors support group" to combat Post Traumatic Coin Stress Disorder. Together we can end PTCSD in the hobby forever. Save a life. Tell us your stories....stay strong  Cheers & Happy Hunting!

Edited November 27, 2023 by Mike Meenderink

[Mike Meenderink]

One of my greatest sorrows. A coin and a day that made me question my entire numismatic education. I felt angry, betrayed and violated when this came back.  Oh how I loved it so...I'm still not over this one

Edited November 27, 2023 by Mike Meenderink
spelling

[GoldFinger1969]

Good topic, lengthy subject title. 

[powermad5000]

Ok. I'll entertain the topic. I was doing it for about 35 years and still figuring it out. My first big purchase and my first submission. I thought it would get AU. I also didn't know how to detect cleaning. That said, however, I do not feel bad at all about this. It opened my eyes and mind to two things. One, I didn't know what I thought I knew. Two, I needed to learn more. Fast forward to now, and my knowledge has greatly expanded (much due to the fantastic members on this forum). Also, my selection process changed completely. However, I believe I will turn back to dust and I still won't know enough much less everything I need to.

One interesting thing about this coin, as a first submission, I didn't know what all the "stuff" was on the form. So I sent this in straight. NGC graciously gave it a VarietyPlus without me checking the boxes for it which I think "accidentally" started an overdrive for me to really dig in to my favorite series! At the time, I didn't know VAM's existed. Now I own about 20 of them.

[Henri Charriere]

PTCSD, huh?  I've made only two errors.  Hardly enough to develop a stress disorder over.  Briefly (in case the Great z is watching) I bought a French 20-franc gold rooster from a highly-regarded firm in France. An FDC (fleur de coin) to be exact with no other expectation than it would fit neatly into that "grade" which embraces the entire range of grades from MS-65 to MS-70 here in the U.S. In my mind's eye, it was unquestionably an MS-68 though it did not matter if were an MS-67, MS-66 or an MS-65. This was early on, pre-upgrading.  I submitted it among a bevy of others to a high-profile TPGS, with cash (an available option) with not a care in the world. I was informed via e-mail the results were in and I could access them as well as the photos taken of them. Cavalierly, I tossed that courtesy aside.  After all, there are FIVE grades involved, any one of which, then, would have been satisfactory to me. I received the shipment, opened the package saving the one that meant everything to me, last.  It bore an insert that read MS-64+. As Clint Eastwood would say, "mah-ve-lous."

The other error was purchasing, sight-unseen, an MS-67 example encapsulated by one TPGS and having it forwarded by the seller directly to another -- straight-away, without examining it first. I received a courtesy call:  "it failed to cross."  No Sale.  I vowed I would  take anything for granted.

Now, having completed my short set of Restrikes in a solid MS-66 line, The French Corsican Connection" collection, I have devoted all my time to maintaining my # 1 rank on the West coast. In a disgraceful arrogant way, I decided I don't need to learn anything more than what I already know beyond posting rewards and bribing owners of West Coast gold roosters already graded MS-67  to cement my # 1 ranking. All I need is one, and I'm done. My feeling is if you need professional legal or medical advice, you go see a doctor or lawyer. For coins, I submit. I figure that's what they get paid to do... all the thinking for you. The only thing I'm running out of right now is time -- and patience. And I don't like to be kept waiting.   

Edited November 28, 2023 by Henri Charriere
Routine die-polishing.

[samclemen3991]

I am too chicken to submit very many coins to be slabbed but I do remember one heartbreaking experience.

Years ago I was building a set of Standing Liberty Quarters.  My go to dealers were J Cline and A guy called Dave The Collectors friend.  I can no longer remember which one sent it to me but they sent me a mint state 1927-D Quarter for inspection.  My entire set up to then was circulated but they swore the coin was a 63 or better and pre paid to have the coin graded by PCGS.  I will never forget getting that body bag.  James

[ldhair]

My problems all started with having money and buying coins I knew nothing about. I made a lot of mistakes.  When the TPGs started, I began sending in my prize collection. Many were coming back in body bags. I felt really stupid and I was. There was a good side to everything. Each coin became a lesson to study and understand. I learned a lot from my mistakes.

 

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

not about submitting raw coins per se - but....

My biggest eye opening experience was to find that "problem" coins (cleaned, environmentally damaged, recolored, etc.) ARE in PCGS and NGC straight-graded holders.  In fact, there are problem coins in MS holders in the series I collect (half cents).

When I first started, I assumed that buying TPG coins would screen-out the problems for me.  Wrong.  While it helps, there are many "market acceptable" coins that have problems, and reside in straight graded holders (you might be shocked).  TPGs seem to be especially lenient in older series... this does not just mean in numerical grade, but also allowing defects that would "details" grade coins in other, more modern series. 

Fortunately, I did not have to learn this the hard way.  The EAC grading guide and some of the members of my clubs have helped me in the identification of these problems.  I would highly recommend the grading guide to anyone (Its focus is early copper, but the lessons transcend numismatics.  I guarantee you are a tougher grader after you read it). 

Edited November 27, 2023 by The Neophyte Numismatist

[Mike Meenderink]

On 11/27/2023 at 2:16 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

not about submitting raw coins per se - but....

My biggest eye opening experience was to find that "problem" coins (cleaned, environmentally damaged, recolored, etc.) ARE in PCGS and NGC straight-graded holders.  In fact, there are problem coins in MS holders in the series I collect (half cents).

When I first started, I assumed that buying TPG coins would screen-out the problems for me.  Wrong.  While it helps, there are many "market acceptable" coins that have problems, and reside in straight graded holders (you might be shocked).  TPGs seem to be especially lenient in older series... this does not just mean in numerical grade, but also allowing defects that would "details" grade coins in other, more modern series. 

Fortunately, I did not have to learn this the hard way.  The EAC grading guide and some of the members of my clubs have helped me in the identification of these problems.  I would highly recommend the grading guide to anyone (Its focus is early copper, but the lessons transcend numismatics.  I guarantee you are a tougher grader after you read it). 

Agreed. I would  also add that TPGs have the final say in the 'toning" that passes for "eye appealing" they also have the final say in what is considered a defect. Its like being you own 3rd world country.

[Rod D.]

A guy never forgets their first body bag.  

Edited November 28, 2023 by Rod D.

[Mike Meenderink]

I feel especially bad for those that receive "Body Bags" in return. I myself have never been as unfortunate as to have such a thing occur. However, I never say never. Recently I have been dabbling in raw ancient coins. I'm sure I will get my first Body Bag soon. 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Mike Meenderink

[Moxie15]

Well I have been at it since 1971 and I will never claim to be able to grade perfectly. In fact as I have aged I have changed from trying to match any TPG's or anyone else's grading. Grading is an opinion, nothing more or less. Think about it, how many of you reading this have re-submitted a coin to the same or different service looking for the higher grade you think the coin should have? How many have sent in a a coin that straight graded coin to have it come back details or vise versa?

I have never sent a coin in to a TPG so I have never felt what some of you are talking about. I have come to the point where I grade by my standards and they are often a bit tighter than either of the big two services. If I am spending what I think is a large amount of money I will often look for a graded coin, not so much for the number on the label, but for the assurance of the coin being genuine, as most coins I buy are removed from whatever tomb they are in soon after purchase.

When I buy a coin It must do two things, please me, and fit my budget. If it does that then if I agree with the label or not does not matter.

But what do I know?

[samclemen3991]

I think a lot of people do what you do Moxie15.  I would not do it myself.  As you say you wanted proof the coin was genuine before you spent that kind of money.  What are the odds the next buyer in line will want the same assurance?  To me it is like buying a car and then burning the title.  James

[Dave1384]

“When I buy a coin It must do two things, please me, and fit my budget. “

This observation applied to me with uncertified coins, which I have only occasionally purchased .

What really soured me on this hobby was an experience I had some years ago with a raw 1899 Morgan Dollar from Philadelphia. I had it pegged at a minimum 64 , it was that gorgeous. I bought it at a show . Before I bought it I showed it to two other dealers who saw no flaws. I was excited. 
      I sent it in , through a friend. To NGC. 
       It was returned. In a PINK slab. Some garbage about the rim. You couldn’t see it. I swore it was a conspiracy since a high grade in that coin commands a premium. And it would upset the census. So I had 3 people in the business agree with my opinion but to no avail. I later sold the damm thing at the World’s Fair of Money in Philadelphia and THAT guy didn’t see an issue with it either. 
I ranted about it here after that slab came back . I should have just enjoyed it for what I had. Having it slabbed really sucked the life out of the hobby for me. 

[Mike Meenderink]

BUMP BUT!!! Don't wake up Bandit....

[J P M]

I think I do a good enough job at grading coins. But I have no reason to send in any coins to be graded. If I can find it already out there graded for less money than it will cost me, it is just not worth it.  

[Mike Meenderink]

[Mike Meenderink]

On 12/30/2023 at 10:05 AM, Mike Meenderink said: