What to do when you hit the upgrade wall ? 0

[RWB]

Many collectors buy a "better date" coin in a lower grade because it's affordable and "fills that empty hole." Later, as finances permit, they purchase the same piece but in a higher grade. This can be for financial or aesthetic reasons, or both.

So....what happens when you want to upgrade a really nice EF-45 to AU or MS-62, and find that all the coins in AU & MS-62 slabs are not as nice as your existing EF? Do you buy an inferior coin just for the printed label? Do you send in your EF in hopes of a "higher" grade? Do you crack out your EF coin, alter the label, and glue the parts back together? Do you do nothing and switch to collecting desert beetles? Or....?

Edited November 25, 2023 by RWB

[Henri Charriere]

You become an indentured servant like me.

[GoldFinger1969]

That's a pretty big jump in grades -- EF to AU or MS -- to have a coin that looks worse or has lesser eye appeal even though it is in a higher-graded slab.  Unless the EF was graded during The Golden Age of Tight Grading and in a valuable OGH or equivalent, I'd take another look at the coins in question.   

AU-58 vs. MS-62 is one thing....but AU-53 or lower ? 

[ldhair]

I don't let a wall bother me. I just move on. The grade is not all that important to me. It's more about the look of the coin. I will never be a slave of having the best grade.

[Henri Charriere]

Commentary... if you get in on the ground floor and ordain yourself an "exhibitor" for life, you don't run into any walls -- because there are none. Types, dates, grades are of no moment. You have the luxury of moving on, because you can.  Upgrades are irrelevant because nothing stops the inevitable progression.

I am a certified slave. I have limited choices. There is only one way to go: up and forward. I can choose to revel in the comparative comfort of collecting common coins or jump into the fray, take the bull by the horns and assemble a compilation of the finest coins available in a series and, if I hit a wall, lie in wait for my prey or, if I get restless, do what all the oil tycoons and robber barons have done: take the initiative and offer bribes and rewards. I do not enjoy the luxury of having unlimited time. I am razor-focused on my goal and breaching that wall by any means necessary. You will know I located my prey when you log-in one day and find another topic, entitled: "Outta Here."    

 

[Coinbuf]

Well first off I try never to "fill a slot with an inferior coin", not to say that I never have but I try not to do that now.   Second, I never start a set or series without figuring out in advance if I can afford the coins in the grade range that will make me happy.   Because of those two things, and unless there is some unforeseen event or outside force, I try and not upgrade as I find that to be a rather expensive process.   If I was a collector of a difficult or esoteric series where upgrades are impossible to find or a 10X+ leap in cost I would likely just be happy with what I have or sell and move on to a series that fits my goals above.

[VKurtB]

On 11/24/2023 at 10:42 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

That's a pretty big jump in grades -- EF to AU or MS -- to have a coin that looks worse or has lesser eye appeal even though it is in a higher-graded slab.  Unless the EF was graded during The Golden Age of Tight Grading and in a valuable OGH or equivalent, I'd take another look at the coins in question.   

AU-58 vs. MS-62 is one thing....but AU-53 or lower ? 

I bought a coin at Chard’s of Blackpool, England in December of 2019 that was marked “XF”. NGC graded it MS65. I was surprised it made it to 65, but I could see it was MS something. I’ve now been to the U.K. twice on coin hunts, and it is EASY to cherry pick on condition/grade there. 

Edited November 26, 2023 by VKurtB

[zadok]

On 11/25/2023 at 11:05 PM, VKurtB said:

I bought a coin at Chard’s of Blackpool, England in December of 2019 that was marked “XF”. NGC graded it MS65. I was surprised it made it to 65, but I could see it was MS something. I’ve now been to the U.K. twice on coin hunts, and it is EASY to cherry pick on condition/grade there. 

...especially so on gold coins....

[Zebo]

Get a better/second job! Or not.

[Zebo]

On 11/25/2023 at 11:05 PM, VKurtB said:

I bought a coin at Chard’s of Blackpool, England in December of 2019 that was marked “XF”. NGC graded it MS65. I was surprised it made it to 65, but I could see it was MS something. I’ve now been to the U.K. twice on coin hunts, and it is EASY to cherry pick on condition/grade there. 

Many coins graded GEF from the Bentley sale were later graded MS 63. XF to 65 - Wow! Now that is a great pickup. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/25/2023 at 11:05 PM, VKurtB said:

I bought a coin at Chard’s of Blackpool, England in December of 2019 that was marked “XF”. NGC graded it MS65. I was surprised it made it to 65, but I could see it was MS something. I’ve now been to the U.K. twice on coin hunts, and it is EASY to cherry pick on condition/grade there. 

But MARKED XF by someone who could be very knowledgeable or a novice or anything in between, especially overseas, is one thing.  I presume we're talking about TPG graded from EF to TPG high-AU or low-MS.

I'm sure it happens -- probably on more obscure or rare coins -- but it certainly isn't the norm.

[VKurtB]

On 11/26/2023 at 1:16 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

But MARKED XF by someone who could be very knowledgeable or a novice or anything in between, especially overseas, is one thing.  I presume we're talking about TPG graded from EF to TPG high-AU or low-MS.

I'm sure it happens -- probably on more obscure or rare coins -- but it certainly isn't the norm.

Chards is a very highly respected British dealer in Blackpool. They had two of the same coin. I bought the one I liked better, which was in a XF holder, a Chards holder. Keep in mind, they don’t DO anything in the AU range in the U.K. coin market. Grades go right from XF to MS with nothing in between. They disdain and mock AU as a concept, outside of the British office of NGC. Even the Royal Mint’s website completely ignores the AU range. I paid a middle XF price for the piece, let it sit in a 2x2 box for a couple of years, then sent it to NGC Sarasota. MS65. You coulda knocked me over with a feather. Another coin in the same shipment made MS67PL. And I bought that raw as well.
 

You have to understand that our coin market, the USA coin market, is probably the outlier here. Virtually nobody else does the things we do here. It’s one reason why the slabbing companies struggle in many countries. It’s too “American” for world tastes. Imagine Steve Martin in his strange European accent saying, “You Americans are so naive.” Canada has their own grading company. So does France. They are each more respected in their home countries than any of ours, including our hosts. The Germans and the Swiss would rather that the entire concept of slabbing go away. Because everyone knows “Stempelglanz” when they see it.

Edited November 27, 2023 by VKurtB

[powermad5000]

Well, I am only trying to complete one set. Franklin Halves (minus all the Bugs Bunny varieties) all in MS 64 FBL at a minimum (some already graded higher). I am doing this buying fully raw and submitting them. I have the means to obtain all the pieces to complete the set. Once it is complete, I will not feel compelled to upgrade to MS 65 FBL. For those, my goal will be complete. I am having a hard time finishing the set seeking out raw specimens rabidly because other coins catch my eye and it takes funds away from the Franklin process.

As for other coins, my Morgans for example, I try for MS 64. But with Morgans, it depends on the year and mintmark. Common issues in 64 can be had raw for say $100 or so, or slabbed for $150 or so. But try to obtain an 1892 S in MS 64 and I am totally priced out of even the thought. So, when it comes time for me to make a purchase for that, I'll try to get one low graded that I still like to look at.

I don't do much upgrading, but there has been some. For non key dates, I have sold off even those I had in AU for MS. To save space in my SDB, I sold off most slabs worth less than $100. I just want nice coins that are indicative of what the coin used to look like so once in MS territory, I am happy with that. I am not a registry participant, nor have any competitive desire to have the absolute best there is to have. I probably will never own a Top Pop coin and I am perfectly happy with that. When I turn to dust, someone will get my coins and say, "Dang! This guy had some really nice stuff!" and that's good enough for me.

I don't really feel a need to do much upgrading. Much of what I buy I keep because I bought something I liked. I have some coins in MS 67 and MS 68. When looking at "upgrading" at that level, other than toning getting involved, the coins pretty much look about the same anyway (as in take a specific coin and hold an MS 67 next to an MS 68 and excluding the color or toning differences, to the naked eye, they pretty much look the same). 

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/27/2023 at 11:24 AM, VKurtB said:

You have to understand that our coin market, the USA coin market, is probably the outlier here. Virtually nobody else does the things we do here. It’s one reason why the slabbing companies struggle in many countries. It’s too “American” for world tastes. Imagine Steve Martin in his strange European accent saying, “You Americans are so naive.” Canada has their own grading company. So does France. They are each more respected in their home countries than any of ours, including our hosts. The Germans and the Swiss would rather that the entire concept of slabbing go away. Because everyone knows “Stempelglanz” when they see it.

Very true. Very true!  I have a feeling many of the companies I have done business with, virtually tapped out of higher tier coins, have reverted to their own grading standards.  In fact one, has dispensed with SPL (or Fast stempelglantz in German; MS63 and MS64 in English altogether,  Their grades are listed as SUP (or Superbe in French; VZ or Vorzuglich in German: AU55 to MS62 in English) slash / FDC or UNC (as it is defined in Angleterre) to ST. So, for all intents and purposes, the U.S. equivalent of MS63 and MS64 is no longer recognized. Obviously, on the gold rooster line, anything from AU55 to MS70 is not helpful.  What I would really love to have is a 1900 gold rooster graded MS66, but none yet have been so certified.  I realize it's transitory but seeing Silver at $25 and Gold back up at $2,000 does my heart good.  I am hoping scarcer examples will be sold off and if this keeps up, mining companies that have been holding off on excavations will jump back into the thick of action.  The wall I have hit at upgrading has actually started me thinking into developing a parallel registry for the 10-Franc line which is smaller and less expensive.

 

[zadok]

On 11/29/2023 at 12:01 AM, Henri Charriere said:

Very true. Very true!  I have a feeling many of the companies I have done business with, virtually tapped out of higher tier coins, have reverted to their own grading standards.  In fact one, has dispensed with SPL (or Fast stempelglantz in German; MS63 and MS64 in English altogether,  Their grades are listed as SUP (or Superbe in French; VZ or Vorzuglich in German: AU55 to MS62 in English) slash / FDC or UNC (as it is defined in Angleterre) to ST. So, for all intents and purposes, the U.S. equivalent of MS63 and MS64 is no longer recognized. Obviously, on the gold rooster line, anything from AU55 to MS70 is not helpful.  What I would really love to have is a 1900 gold rooster graded MS66, but none yet have been so certified.  I realize it's transitory but seeing Silver at $25 and Gold back up at $2,000 does my heart good.  I am hoping scarcer examples will be sold off and if this keeps up, mining companies that have been holding off on excavations will jump back into the thick of action.  The wall I have hit at upgrading has actually started me thinking into developing a parallel registry for the 10-Franc line which is smaller and less expensive.

 

...n more difficult to do....