1994 Jefferson Commemorative Dollar Coinage and currency set 1 1

[Halbrook Family]

On 12/3/2023 at 11:33 AM, Sandon said:

2004-2005. See pp. 141-42 of your 2018 Redbook.

I don't see these in the 2018 redbook. pg 362 Has some other ones. Are these all satin finish? 

[Sandon]

On 12/4/2023 at 10:49 PM, edhalbrook said:

Are these all satin finish? 

 

    As I recall, these sets, which I don't think are listed in the "Redbook", contained regular finish uncirculated "P" and "D" coins of each of the two reverse types as well as an "S" mint proof of each reverse type. I didn't buy these and am not entirely sure.

[Halbrook Family]

On 12/2/2023 at 8:41 PM, Sandon said:

 

   The 25,000 "matte finish" 1997-P nickels are not considered proofs but are different from the nearly 471 million 1997-P nickels issued for circulation, which are considered the same issue as those included in 1997 uncirculated coin sets.

   

Is the prestige set the same as the other 1997 set? 

1997-P US BOTANIC GARDEN PRESTIGE PROOF SILVER DOLLAR SET OGP

[Halbrook Family]

Been looking over many many 1994 sets and I haven't seen a s mint set yet

[EagleRJO]

On 12/3/2023 at 3:02 PM, RWB said:

Improper alloy mix" is a false explanation.

I think ANACS was the TPG using that term for "Black Beauty" nickels, which I think is now "Improper Annealing" to be consistent with the big boys.

[Sandon]

On 12/8/2023 at 8:36 AM, edhalbrook said:

Is the prestige set the same as the other 1997 set? 

     The Prestige proof sets issued most years from 1983-1997 contain the same coins as a regular clad proof set, plus a proof commemorative silver dollar. The silver dollars were also available in other options.

[Mike Meenderink]

On 12/3/2023 at 12:02 PM, RWB said:

"Improper alloy mix" is a false explanation.

Nickels with dark gray or nearly black surfaces were made from planchets heated in air or an oxidizing environment. The coating is copper oxide [copper(II) oxide or cupric oxide]. it is black. The formula is: CuO.

Separating authentic from post-mint fakes can be difficult.

PCGS NGC and ANACS all put different things on these coins..take it up with them RWB

[RWB]

On 12/8/2023 at 12:10 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

PCGS NGC and ANACS all put different things on these coins..take it up with them RWB

That's right....they have not done the research "homework" to understand how and why this happens. The claim of "alloy mix error" is completely bogus for these things. It is an easily confirmed annealing mistake that allows oxygen to reach the mostly copper planchets, and form a film of the oxide CuO. These defective planchets should be detected before striking or after during inspection, but a few slip thorough. If this is found on a circulated coin it means the oxide was applied post-mint.

The ANACS label is fine with its nickname. But cause given is false.

[Sandon]

On 12/8/2023 at 8:43 AM, edhalbrook said:

Been looking over many many 1994 sets and I haven't seen a s mint set yet

      All "S" mint coins from 1994 are proofs and were issued in the proof sets of that year (clad, silver, and prestige).  Only uncirculated coins are issued in "mint sets". The last "mint sets" including "S" mint coins are those from 1981, which included the 1981-S SBA dollar.  See pp. 361-62 of your 2018 Redbook. (Subsequent editions include the all "S" mint 2017 "enhanced uncirculated sets" among the "mint sets", but the coins they contain aren't regular uncirculated coins.)

[EagleRJO]

On 12/3/2023 at 3:02 PM, RWB said:

"Improper alloy mix" is a false explanation.

Nickels with dark gray or nearly black surfaces were made from planchets heated in air or an oxidizing environment. The coating is copper oxide [copper(II) oxide or cupric oxide]. it is black. The formula is: CuO.

I understand that both NGC and PCG$ have taken that position, and label the slabs for darkened or "Black Beauty" nickels as an "Improperly Annealed" mint error, consistent with what you are saying, and current thinking for this error.  ANACS is the one flip-flopping between "Improper Alloy Mix" (see above) and "Improperly Annealed Planchet" so I don't know what the label for this error is this week.

However, I have read unconfirmed rumours that it may have been caused by small amounts of cobalt or silicone left over in the refining process from two distinct nickel ore sources.  This would be a different contamination, and not improper annealing or mixing.  Have you come across anything from the mint related to that while researching for your book?

Edited December 10, 2023 by EagleRJO

[RWB]

On 12/8/2023 at 3:38 PM, EagleRJO said:

small amounts of cobalt or silicone left over in the refining process

Nickel is often found with iron and cobalt, however refining removes all the cobalt which is then sold separately at a much higher price. Silicon (not 'silicone') does not mix with nickel in commercial use and would float to the surface as dross.

Alloy mixing is critical for copper-nickel that will be cast and rolled, When not made into a homogeneous casting it cracks and is very brittle in irregular crystals and visible patterns. None of these produce black color except through surface oxidation -- which takes us back to annealing.

It's nice to see that PCGS and NGC put the correct cause on their slabs. (I do not pay much attention to TPG drama, so I appreciate you letting me know!)

[Halbrook Family]

On 12/8/2023 at 8:19 AM, Sandon said:

     The Prestige proof sets issued most years from 1983-1997 contain the same coins as a regular clad proof set, plus a proof commemorative silver dollar. The silver dollars were also available in other options.

Maybe I'm getting myself confused here. But this set says it's P and the nickel looks like a s mirror finish. then you are right the coins are a s mint except maybe the botanical one. 

[Sandon]

On 12/8/2023 at 7:37 PM, edhalbrook said:

the coins are a s mint except maybe the botanical one. 

  Some proof modern commemoratives were struck at mints other than San Francisco, usually Philadelphia or West Point, with the appropriate mint mark.  Both proof and uncirculated Botanic Garden dollars are "P"s.  See p. 332 of your 2018 "Redbook". See pp. 314-51 for mint and other information through 2017. (You might want to consider buying a newer edition.)

[Halbrook Family]

On 12/8/2023 at 11:07 AM, Sandon said:

      All "S" mint coins from 1994 are proofs and were issued in the proof sets of that year (clad, silver, and prestige).  Only uncirculated coins are issued in "mint sets". The last "mint sets" including "S" mint coins are those from 1981, which included the 1981-S SBA dollar.  See pp. 361-62 of your 2018 Redbook. (Subsequent editions include the all "S" mint 2017 "enhanced uncirculated sets" among the "mint sets", but the coins they contain aren't regular uncirculated coins.)

OK I see now. I was thinking I could maybe get the p 1997 nickel from this set instead but I already got it. Botanical is going for $150 or so. Yikes. Yeah the 1994 one was easy. I bid on the 2004 2005 and 2006 nickel sets. $5 each. I just wanted them for my set of nickels. I wasn't going to bust them open though. 

[Halbrook Family]

On 12/8/2023 at 5:03 PM, Sandon said:

  Some proof modern commemoratives were struck at mints other than San Francisco, usually Philadelphia or West Point, with the appropriate mint mark.  Both proof and uncirculated Botanic Garden dollars are "P"s.  See p. 332 of your 2018 "Redbook". See pp. 314-51 for mint and other information through 2017. (You might want to consider buying a newer edition.)

Why does it say dist 58,505 and below say 189,671? Are those dollar coins different? On the 1993 / 1994 one do they come from both mints? Or maybe it comes with the prestige set as a s coin. Yeah I guess I need a newer book. Is it that much more info? 

[Sandon]

On 12/8/2023 at 8:13 PM, edhalbrook said:

Why does it say dist 58,505 and below say 189,671?

   It simply means that the mint distributed (sold) a total of 58,505 uncirculated Botanic Garden dollars and 189,671 proof Botanic Garden dollars. The uncirculated dollars were included in the 25,000 1997 Botanic Garden Coin and Currency sets, and the other 33,505 were sold as single pieces. (Only the 1997-P matte finish nickel was unique to the set.) The proof dollars were included in the 80,000 Prestige proof sets (p. 358), and the other 109,671 were sold separately.

[EagleRJO]

On 12/8/2023 at 5:22 PM, RWB said:

It's nice to see that PCGS and NGC put the correct cause on their slabs

PCG$ initially labeled the "Black Beauty" nickels as "Sintered Planchet", then "Improperly Annealed/SIntered".  But then finally changed it to the more technically correct term "Improperly Annealed Planchet" quite a while ago which NGC was already using.  However, both of these TPGs have been using "improper annealing" for a while as evidenced by the slab ages and consistent with current thinking as previously noted.

Strangely, it looks like older ANACS slabs initially labeled the "Black Beauty" nickels as first "Improper Alloy Mix", then "Improperly Annealed Planchet" and apparently then inexplicably changed the labels back to "Improper Alloy Mix" more recently.

Edited December 10, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Halbrook Family]

On 12/8/2023 at 5:03 PM, Sandon said:

  Some proof modern commemoratives were struck at mints other than San Francisco, usually Philadelphia or West Point, with the appropriate mint mark.  Both proof and uncirculated Botanic Garden dollars are "P"s.  See p. 332 of your 2018 "Redbook". See pp. 314-51 for mint and other information through 2017. (You might want to consider buying a newer edition.)

Do you know anything about the lewis and clark coin pouch set?  

[Sandon]

On 12/10/2023 at 9:37 AM, edhalbrook said:

Do you know anything about the lewis and clark coin pouch set?  

  Per the deluxe "Redbook", this set consisted of a proof Lewis and Clark commemorative silver dollar, which was available in other options and is one of the more common modern commemoratives, and a beaded leather pouch that was hand made by a Native American craftsman. As I recall, no two pouches were alike. I also recall that chemicals in the leather could cause the coins to tone unattractively, so it was a bad idea to store the coin in or near the pouch.

[Halbrook Family]

The botanic garden set .... the nickel isn't silver is it?

This set features the beautiful 1997 Botanic Garden Coin and Currency Set, which includes two silver $1 US coins. The coins are in pristine condition, with no signs of wear or damage. They were struck at the Philadelphia Mint with a fineness of 0.9 and feature a business strike type. The set also comes with a U.S. Mint certification, ensuring its authenticity. The Botanic Garden Coin and Currency Set is a must-have for collectors of US coins and paper money. The set is categorized under Proof Sets and Coins: US, and is a great addition to any collection. Don't miss out on the opportunity to own this exquisite set.   Isn't this posting wrong? Only one silver $1 coin and one nickel and a dollar bill   https://www.ebay.com/itm/134858231274?hash=item1f662d4dea:g:SG0AAOSwgMdlgcpR&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwBomBCGPijr3g OA5729KsDkZ3mrXpPiVBGnXobzqA48L0mvi0wKMJr2MjA0tlCnhlJYrdtP5OBYEGUkSGUHsFO6MjjsnKGDcaLpPEgVV%2B7z8iV%2F0NT tVaLIoQFU%2FUVnsap7ZI4dfHGyen8I4ojVlGX9tll6KE%2Fd4w7fcESbqh85m3UgfqXiGbCAHPaBHQIFlRoFW34Zzoskts22CaRhH3xx3UEF ESGifqDecRdP3Gv%2FEpm26P%2BNJ9cX1GSQShn7vQw%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR_SM5MqTYw

[Sandon]

On 12/24/2023 at 11:40 AM, edhalbrook said:

The botanic garden set .... the nickel isn't silver is it?

  No, it's not! The seller is either ignorant or dishonest.

[powermad5000]

On 12/4/2023 at 9:49 PM, edhalbrook said:

I don't see these in the 2018 redbook. pg 362 Has some other ones. Are these all satin finish?

 

On 12/4/2023 at 10:52 PM, Sandon said:

    As I recall, these sets, which I don't think are listed in the "Redbook", contained regular finish uncirculated "P" and "D" coins of each of the two reverse types as well as an "S" mint proof of each reverse type. I didn't buy these and am not entirely sure.

I believe you are correct here Sandon. I actually just got all four of the different types of the Westward journey in cash register change all in the last three months. I also saved my own set of these from cash register change when they first came out. None of the P or D are satin finish. The proofs I do not have but those S proofs I remember seeing and they are the typical Mint proof style usually issued.

[Halbrook Family]

On 12/26/2023 at 10:41 AM, powermad5000 said:

 

I believe you are correct here Sandon. I actually just got all four of the different types of the Westward journey in cash register change all in the last three months. I also saved my own set of these from cash register change when they first came out. None of the P or D are satin finish. The proofs I do not have but those S proofs I remember seeing and they are the typical Mint proof style usually issued.

2005 - 2010 Nickels uncirculated coins have satin finish. 

[Halbrook Family]

2009 P&D business strikes are hard ones though. I got 3 d's out of literally thousands I have checked. 

[J P M]

2009 P+D are not easy to find at all. Even at coin shops and auctions.

[Halbrook Family]

My D 2009 look a bit better shape then yours. One of them went through a slot machine. I have yet to find a P nickel. I look at all my change when I get home and finding any P coins here is kind of hard. I did have some luck with nickels yesterday though. 1940, 1954 s, 1952 d. I work in retail and when I buy something I tell the cashier only give me the old head nickels.  Got those 3 in .50 worth of change. Looking for the Henning nickels.