What would you rate this 1900 Morgan Dollar? Is it worth getting graded? 1 1

[MTuttle]

Thank you in advance. New to collecting and have much to learn. What would you rate this 1900 Morgan Dollar? and do you think it is worth my time to have it graded?  Photos taken with IPhone - I feel like the coin is richer looking in real life.  Has been stored in a case (the pics with the green).  Appreciate your time! 

[dprince1138]

There may be a die variety and there are quite a few (a die variety is a minted coin with an abnormal or unusual die condition).

The coin is in very good condition overall, from the images, right off hand, I would give it a detail grade of AU, with the highest AU market value of about $60.  Again, there may be a die consideration, which would make a difference, much less could make it more collectable overall, and with that in mind, it may be worthwhile to submit it as there are numerous conditions.

https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/united-states/dollars/49/varieties/17264/

[MTuttle]

On 11/22/2023 at 3:25 PM, dprince1138 said:

There may be a die variety and there are quite a few (a die variety is a minted coin with an abnormal or unusual die condition).

The coin is in very good condition overall, from the images, right off hand, I would give it a detail grade of AU, with the highest AU market value of about $60.  Again, there may be a die consideration, which would make a difference, much less could make it more collectable overall, and with that in mind, it may be worthwhile to submit it as there are numerous conditions.

https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/united-states/dollars/49/varieties/17264/

Thank you for your time and the extra education here - again much to learn. 

[JKK]

Looks like it was nicer before it had a cleaning. Almost certainly not worth sending in for grading, and I would take that "extra education" as dubious unless someone can actually point out a variety and show their work. That poster has been dishing out wishful thinking to unsuspecting newcomers for some weeks now, and creating false hope in novices is a very wrong thing to do.

[MTuttle]

On 11/22/2023 at 3:35 PM, JKK said:

Looks like it was nicer before it had a cleaning. Almost certainly not worth sending in for grading, and I would take that "extra education" as dubious unless someone can actually point out a variety and show their work. That poster has been dishing out wishful thinking to unsuspecting newcomers for some weeks now, and creating false hope in novices is a very wrong thing to do.

Thank you - Do you have any "beginner" advice on how to tell if a coin has been cleaned? (Understanding that your eye has had years of training). This is part of group of coins that was passed to my mother (recently deceased) from her father.  I believe it has been in the box I found it in for 40+ years.  

[JKK]

On 11/22/2023 at 2:43 PM, MTuttle said:

Thank you - Do you have any "beginner" advice on how to tell if a coin has been cleaned? (Understanding that your eye has had years of training). This is part of group of coins that was passed to my mother (recently deceased) from her father.  I believe it has been in the box I found it in for 40+ years.  

It might have been cleaned before that. It happens.

The kind of cleaning that appears possible here is abrasive, as in usually a wire brush. Look real close under magnification and see if you see lateral scratches all over it. They differ from circulation wear (of which this coin seems likely to have very little) in that circulation wear is random whereas wire brush cleaning is rotary (Dremel tool) or lateral (usually handheld brush). I can't say for sure from the pictures, but I'd give it a closer look.

If not cleaned, this might be in the mid-to-high AU range or even low MS. What looks like a rub spot above the ear can often be slight strike weakness on a Morgan. Look also on the eagle's breast, which is another high spot.

[MTuttle]

On 11/22/2023 at 3:52 PM, JKK said:

It might have been cleaned before that. It happens.

The kind of cleaning that appears possible here is abrasive, as in usually a wire brush. Look real close under magnification and see if you see lateral scratches all over it. They differ from circulation wear (of which this coin seems likely to have very little) in that circulation wear is random whereas wire brush cleaning is rotary (Dremel tool) or lateral (usually handheld brush). I can't say for sure from the pictures, but I'd give it a closer look.

If not cleaned, this might be in the mid-to-high AU range or even low MS. What looks like a rub spot above the ear can often be slight strike weakness on a Morgan. Look also on the eagle's breast, which is another high spot.

Thank you JKK, appreciate the extra time here.  I'll see if i can get it under better magnification and check for the lateral scratches. Great suggestion!  The pictures make the surface look "lumpy" (great technical term there). Where they appear very smooth under the limited magnification I have here. 

[dprince1138]

My initial thought of possible die variety was that I saw what could be repunch markers.  Reviewing as much as I could from the images, I could not find any signs of a die variety.  Here is an MS67 example by PCGS for comparison.

 

[JKK]

On 11/22/2023 at 3:01 PM, MTuttle said:

Thank you JKK, appreciate the extra time here.  I'll see if i can get it under better magnification and check for the lateral scratches. Great suggestion!  The pictures make the surface look "lumpy" (great technical term there). Where they appear very smooth under the limited magnification I have here. 

Coin photography is hard. I suck at it and can't give you any useful help except to say that what you provided doesn't look like coins normally look in hand. I think it takes a lot of practice and motivation to get good at it. Most of the issue seems to be lighting, which as near as I can tell is the major challenge of much photography.

[Coinbuf]

@MTuttle, please disregard all posts from prince, he is new here and has proven that he has no clue how to grade coins or spot problems like old cleanings.   Please follow the advice that member JKK has provided, he is an established member who knows what he is saying.   From your photos your coin does appear to show signs of a very harsh cleaning at some time in the past.   This is not an indictment of your father, the coin could certainly have been cleaned prior to his acquisition of it.   As you look at the obverse of the coin, (the bust) it appears that there are long lines running across the coin from roughly 11 to 5 o'clock.   Lines like this that move continually unbroken across the surface seldom come from circulation.    Lines or marks from circulation are not so uniform but rather random, that is why the coin appears to be cleaned in the photos.

[EagleRJO]

Photos are not great, but it looks cleaned to me, likely from a while ago, with loss of luster and minor wear or rub marks at high points.

It may be the photos again, but that date looks off to me like it's a little too "mushy" for the level of coin wear and without a VAM match.  I have never heard of a 1900 (P) Morgan counterfeit.  But these days stranger things, with cleaning to hide tool marks and/or bulk marble tumbling to give the appearance of being circulated, have come out of China.

Edited November 23, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Sandon]

    Welcome to the NGC chat board. 

    The question you asked about "having it graded" is not what you meant to ask. What you meant was, "should I submit this coin to a third-party grading service?" Every person who wants to become a coin collector must learn how to grade coins, as well as how otherwise to identify and evaluate them. It should have been graded by you once you acquired the knowledge and skill to do so. Without such knowledge, you are unable to determine whether this 1900 Morgan dollar has sufficient value--at least several hundred dollars-- to make the cost of such submission worthwhile.  Submitting coins to grading services is the last thing a new collector should be thinking about!

   Based on the photos, your coin has About Uncirculated details but, as stated by @JKK has been abrasively "cleaned", as shown by the whitish appearing hairline scratches on and around Liberty's face. Even if it were an unimpaired AU, it would have a (somewhat inflated in my opinion) retail list value (dealer sell price) of only $50-$60 on the NGC Price Guide. "Cleaned" it is worth $30, perhaps less. The NGC grading fee alone would be $23 at the "Economy" tier and, assuming that you already have a paid NGC membership would also involve a $10 per order processing fee, $28 per order return shipping fee, and your own cost of shipping the coin to NGC.

   Please refer to the following forum topics for references to appropriate print and online resources from which to learn about U.S. coins. You should also attend such events as coin shows and coin club meetings, where you can examine a variety of coins and speak with experienced collectors and dealers.

   

On 11/22/2023 at 5:43 PM, MTuttle said:

Do you have any "beginner" advice on how to tell if a coin has been cleaned?

   See my and others' replies on the following recent topic:

Age old question for a beginner how to tell if a coin has been cleaned - Newbie Coin Collecting Questions - NGC Coin Collectors Chat Boards

See also my NGC Custom Registry Set Characteristics of "Cleaned" Coins - Custom Set (collectors-society.com).

 

[Newenglandrarities]

On 11/22/2023 at 3:28 PM, dprince1138 said:

My initial thought of possible die variety was that I saw what could be repunch markers.  Reviewing as much as I could from the images, I could not find any signs of a die variety.  Here is an MS67 example by PCGS for comparison.

 

Please do not listen to the above advice.  This is strictly an insufficiently_thoughtful_person who has guided many collectors wrong.  All other members on this board are worth listening to, but please ignore DPrince

Edited November 23, 2023 by Newenglandrarities

[Henri Charriere]

I cannot help but feel if the coin were mine, I would decline to have it encapsulated.  There is the primary consideration to consider, cost, but very often there is a special attribute that overrides that.  I don't see that here. Numismatists look for strong strikes, high state of preservation, original mint luster, or traces thereof, color and an aesthetically pleasing attractiveness to the eye. Barring sentimental reasons, I would likely enclose it within a two-by-two flip and keep your eyes open for something better to come along -- and trade up.

[powermad5000]

I hate to have to chime this in here, but I rate your coin a counterfeit. The two zeros do not look right and the rim looks too wide and is "squared off" for what is considered normal on Morgan dollars. The details of both sides look mushy and the two zeros just do not look like those on a genuine example which while in a curved shape always line up at the bottom. The two zeros look oversized to me. Also the metal tongue on the one zero sends a red flag to me. Below is an example of the obverse of a genuine issue as found on NGC coin explorer. Look at the date and the rims and you should be able to see why I make my assertion as such.

 

 

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by powermad5000

[Mike Meenderink]

On 11/22/2023 at 7:08 PM, powermad5000 said:

I hate to have to chime this in here, but I rate your coin a counterfeit. The two zeros do not look right and the rim looks too wide and is "squared off" for what is considered normal on Morgan dollars. The details of both sides look mushy and the two zeros just do not look like those on a genuine example which while in a curved shape always line up at the bottom. The two zeros look oversized to me. Also the metal tongue on the one zero sends a red flag to me. Below is an example of the obverse of a genuine issue as found on NGC coin explorer. Look at the date and the rims and you should be able to see why I make my assertion as such.

 

 

 

I second your assertion.

[dcarr]

On 11/22/2023 at 10:38 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

I second your assertion.

The coin appears to me to be genuine, although scrubbed. As such, I would put the value at about $30 (not enough to justify certification in my opinion).

 

[EagleRJO]

On 11/23/2023 at 1:46 AM, dcarr said:

The coin appears to me to be genuine

However unlikely a counterfeit 1900 (P) Morgan would be I'm not seeing a match for this one to properly authenticate, particularly with the appearance of the date.  What VAM are you thinking this morgan is a match with?

[Sandon]

On 11/23/2023 at 3:24 PM, EagleRJO said:

What VAM are you thinking this morgan is a match with?

  VAM is a listing of known die varieties, not an authentication guide, at least not for a high mintage date like the 1900 (8,830,000). VAM 1 for this issue, as for most others, is a generic "Normal Die C3 Type Reverse" listing that likely includes multiple die pairs with no significant characteristics enabling them to be told apart, as is to be expected from hubbed dies. VAMWorld acknowledges that the die study for this date has not been completed. http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compute.amazonaws.com/wiki/1900-P_VAMs. 

   I can't tell from the photos whether the coin is genuine. It is not one of the obvious fakes that we frequently see on the chat board. It does appear to be unusually devoid of the bagmarks that are to be expected on Morgan dollars and somewhat "mushy" in appearance in areas other than its high points. As large numbers of counterfeit coins of both rare and common issues have been produced in China since about 2005, it is advisable, especially for new collectors, to obtain uncertified coins from reputable sources, as well as develop basic authentication skills.

[EagleRJO]

I don't think the VAM list will be "complete" any time soon as every once in a while a new one might pop up, although it's probably substantially complete.

It is a very comprehensive listing, a widely accepted Morgan die reference, and it's my understanding very few new ones are being added.  So I think if it doesn't have a VAM match it's very likely a counterfeit.

Edited November 26, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/22/2023 at 7:01 PM, Newenglandrarities said:

....All other members on this board are worth listening to....

This is by far the most unfortunate comment ever to appear on this Forum in close to five years. 🤣 To my many detractors, army of ignorers and untold number of members of every stripe who have fled the premises to parts unknown solely on my account, please take note of the poster's unfamiliarity with me, irrespective of User Name used. There are, of course, the notorious Nine who shall continue to laugh, uncontrollably and uproariously, at the very thought that anyone could ascribe credibility on my part.  Trust me, I've changed.

To the OP:  Back on Track! 

To Moderation:  Thank you and carry on gentlemen. 

[Newenglandrarities]

No doubt haha!  I guess I should have been a bit more specific haha!  Was probably meaning everyone else “in that thread”.  But no question we’ve seen it all with past members, most long gone at this point, but always seem to be a new contender in the race!

[MTuttle]

Thank you all for your time on this.  I hope you had a wonderful Thanksgiving...  

The only thing I do know on this coin is that is has been in a box since 1978 when my grandfather passed. So as far as counterfeit... unless there were the means to do so in the 70's I'm thinking no. 

Thank you all for helping me understand what a cleaned coin would look like - and where to see wear as far as circulation.  So much to learn.  

I appreciate the resources above.... I'll post again if I find something else of interest that I can borrower your expert eyes on.  

[EagleRJO]

On 11/27/2023 at 9:39 AM, MTuttle said:

The only thing I do know on this coin is that is has been in a box since 1978 when my grandfather passed. So as far as counterfeit... unless there were the means to do so in the 70's I'm thinking no. 

Counterfeit coins have been coming out of countries like China for quite a while, and in the 70's a flood of counterfeits came from the Middle East.  The coin isn't valuable enough to submit for authentication just based on that, but you might consider submitting it or bringing the coin to a local coin shop to have them look at it if the coin has sentimental value and you want to make sure it's legit.