Age old question for a beginner how to tell if a coin has been cleaned 1 1

[Buck Deerslayer]

Good morning everyone

there are several types of cleaning abrasive, chemical and others that are easily picked up on. I have a Morgan that is a magnificent looking coin no abrasive lines or obvious cleaning signs. It has heavy silver layer and when I asked NGC how they determined it was cleaned all I hot was the typical answer you find on the web. I want to know how to determine a coin has been cleaned when it looks magnificent maybe someone cleaned it with plain soap and water I can’t tell and people who have been collecting for decades and have beautiful collections couldn’t tell it was cleaned. So in ending how do you tell a coin has been cleaned when there is no apparent signs of the coin being cleaned.

thanks Frank B

[JKK]

What on earth is "heavy silver layer"?

[Buck Deerslayer]

I’m have only been collecting for a short time. But some of my older coins you can see were the surface layer looks like the top layer of silver has worn off and other ares look unworn. Those dull looking coins are good candidates for being cleaned because the earlier coins I bought and sent to NGC came back cleaned. Those types of cleaned coins I no longer struggle with. Now most coins I buy are already  graded. I’ll see if I can scan the coin I’m talking about and post pictures tomorrow. 
thanks

[JKK]

There aren't separate layers. I believe you are thinking of original surfaces and mint luster.

What you originally asked about was how to detect cleaning. We don't grade (for the most part) with magnification, but we do use it to attribute it and inspect for signs of cleaning and counterfeiting, and sometimes to identify varieties. For abrasive cleaning, high magnification will reveal lateral or circular scratches. They look very different from normal wear. For chemical cleaning, it's harder. Often the cleaners do a poor job and leave some crud on the coin. Sometimes the chemical cleaning takes off the mint luster. Under normal wear situations, the protected areas (shadows of the devices) will keep mint luster longer than the raised parts; if the luster is no longer there in the shadows, but it's all bright and shiny, pretty likely it was chemically cleaned.

Be very clear on this: dull-looking is not bad. It's not bad. It might mean tarnished/toned, it might mean worn, but it is not bad. If it were in my power to mentally assault every new collector with indoctrination they could not refuse, I would force into their brains that "shiny = great" is wrong, misleading. Circulated coins are supposed to look dull, and they get spotted when cleaned because they look wrong. There is a way coins are supposed to look based on how they have been used and handled. Mint state coins can be flat dull, provided they show no trace of wear. A worn-flat Merc that shows a blast white color is much worse than the same Merc if it were dull grey, because dull grey is how worn silver looks. If it were up to me, every time someone picked up a worn coin and said to herself, "You know what? I can make this 'shinny' [that type of person usually can't spell, either] and no one will know," a coin deity would touch their privates with a cattle prod and leave it there until they recited a formula: "Shiny is not fundamentally better!"

Look for the scratches. A microscope can be helpful. Look for the crud, or for aspects of the coin that are not natural for its level of wear; a microscope can also be helpful there. Most of all, look at a lot of coins. The biggest tell is the coin doesn't look right for its age and wear. Only by looking at a lot of coins can you determine what is a normal look.

Also, remember strike weakness vs. wear. Some coin issues had a tendency not to strike up fully. Not sure which are our worst examples, but my guess would be everything silver from the 1920s--Peace dollars, SLQs, some Walkers, and such. What might look like wear might simply be the planchet's surface metal that was not forced all the way up into the high points.

[Buck Deerslayer]

Thanks thats what exactly what I’m trying to say. Thanks for the clarification also. 
Frank B

[EagleRJO]

On 11/16/2023 at 9:28 AM, JKK said:

What on earth is "heavy silver layer"?

A possible reference to silver plated things like jewelry that has nothing to do with coins, but more likely what happens to your hair when you get older. 

On 11/16/2023 at 9:23 AM, Buck Deerslayer said:

... when I asked NGC how they determined it was cleaned all I [got] was the typical answer ...

They are not likely to give detailed answers on how they detect cleaning on specific coins which might make it easier for some to better hide the signs.  But the following NGC article may help in general ...

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/1337/Why-Cleaned-Coins-Cannot-Be-Uncleaned/

On 11/16/2023 at 10:23 AM, JKK said:

Most of all, look at a lot of coins. The biggest tell is the coin doesn't look right for its age and wear. Only by looking at a lot of coins can you determine what is a normal look.

That is just about the best advice anyone could provide on this issue.  One of the most difficult things for me to get a handle on when I first got more serious about collecting was to develop an eye for when a coin just doesn't look right, whether from it being a counterfeit or from cleaning.  It just takes time and repetition.

Edited November 16, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Sandon]

   The topic of "cleaning" is difficult for new collectors to understand for several reasons.

   The term is itself a misnomer because a process that solely removes surface dirt from a coin without affecting the surface of the coin--literal cleaning, such as by using a solvent such as acetone--is not included in this term.  Instead, "cleaning" in its negative numismatic context means a variety of chemical and abrasive processes that chemically or physically alter the surface of the coin itself, resulting in an unnatural or unattractive appearance. This includes a number of different appearances, such as the following:

   1.  Heavy hairlining from abrasive processes such as by scrubbing the coin even with a cloth or rubbing it with a pencil eraser or the like. To the naked eye, this includes an unnatural "whiteness" that appears at different angles as the coin is rotated in the light and an unnatural, unattractive grey color in the abraded areas that is unlike the natural, darker or brownish greys of unimpaired circulated or toned coins.

  2.  Blotchiness or unnatural brightness, shininess, or dullness from various types of chemical treatments or polishes. To compound the ambiguity, grading services do not treat silver coins that have been carefully "dipped" in anti-tarnish solutions as "cleaned", although such "dipping" may reduce the numerical grade they award the coin.  However, coins that have a "washed out" appearance due to being dipped too many times or for too long will likely be deemed to have been "cleaned". (Dipping is unacceptable for copper and apparently copper-nickel coins and will almost certainly result in a "details" grade as "cleaned" or "recolored".)

   "Cleaned" coins vary in appearance from hideous to fairly attractive depending on the nature and severity of the "cleaning". In my opinion the more attractive ones are collectible at an appropriate discount. Additionally, even experienced collectors and dealers may disagree over whether a particular coin should be described as "cleaned" and, if so, the severity of the "cleaning".

   I have a "Custom Set" on the NGC Registry that includes only coins that NGC or PCGS "details" graded as "cleaned" and a few that were numerically graded but that I regard as "cleaned". Characteristics of "Cleaned" Coins - Custom Set (collectors-society.com) Hopefully, the photos and descriptions in this set will provide you with some guidance. However, you will need to examine a number of original and "cleaned" coins in person to really understand the differences.

[powermad5000]

Hello and welcome!

Some of what I learned on this is first to look for hairlines (tiny scratches in the surface of the coin). They may all be in the same direction or circular depending on what was used and if pressure or an abrasive material was applied and moved across the surface of the coin. Sometimes you can only see these hairlines in certain lighting situations, so having the coin in hand is necessary to look for them. Some angles towards the light that the coin is tilted can make the lines appear but disappear when tilted a different way. Most likely, you will not be able to see these lines on coins offered online or just from photos (which is why a return policy is critical when buying coins online or sight unseen).

Keep in mind the many ways and things that are used to clean coins. NGC will state that water with a mild clear soap with NO rubbing will not result in a details cleaned grade. This is not going to remove most crud or ingrained dirt or toning, so it is really just as a stop gap to previous handling (fingerprints). After that, it gets into a plethora of things people use/try. Pumice soap, toothpaste, erasers, metal polish, 2000 grit sandpaper, tiny screwdrivers, abrasive wheels, wire brushes, wire wheels (whizzed), heavy rubbing with a rag, Mr. Clean Magic Eraser, and into chemicals such as TarnX, acetone, Fantastic, rubbing alcohol, carburetor cleaner, brake cleaner (I even had someone tell me they soaked a coin in Draino). Each of these things will cause its own "damage" to the surface of the coin. And this is not an exhaustive list btw. People do some crazy things.

Now, some other things I look for besides hairlines. A copper coin that is "pink". A copper coin that looks more "gold" than red or brown. An uncirculated coin that looks "worn" but still whitish in appearance (wear from rubbing). Dark areas around the areas of lettering, date, profile, eagle, wreath, and motto on a silver coin but the rest of the coin appears whitish (the dark areas are where the fingers or "polish" either cannot get to or in the case of polishes got built up around. A gold coin that looks "shiny" (not modern). Older issued gold coins should be gold in color but not look like proof silver coins (especially when the profile is also "shiny"). If a coin is worn but looks "new". Also keep in mind that it is possible only one side of a coin is cleaned and one is not. To put it in laymens terms, mint luster has its own look and anything in MS and not conforming to that look probably has issues. Conversely, anything worn that is trying to imitate that luster has issues.

It does take a lot of looking at thousands of coins to get used to it, but when things don't look "right" it is probably safe to assume, someone altered the surface already. Even though I have gotten "better" at spotting cleaned coins, there are still some that get past my radar that were so lightly cleaned it didn't make my alarm bells go off.

[dprince1138]

https://www.google.com/search?q=coin+how+to+tell+if+been+cleaned&rlz=1C1CHBD_enUS698US698&oq=coin+how+to+tell+if+been+cleaned&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIICAEQABgWGB4yDQgCEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyDQgDEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyBggEEEUYPNIBCjEwODU5ajBqMTWoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[Buck Deerslayer]

Hello thanks for the reply but I have older coins Morgans that have none of the obvious signs of cleaning. I have coins that I have shown to some people who have extensive collections and have been collecting for decades and they can’t understand why these coins came back from NGC as cleaned. I have sent some back for reevaluation only to have NGC reaffirm there decision. Most of the coins from my earlier purchases have been cleaned but as I get more experienced those are far fewer. Another thing I learned is one coin I sent to have professionally conserved and it came back from a MS65 to unc details cleaned. That was the last time I sent a coin in for conservation. 
thanks you all for your feedback as I have expanded my knowledge on how to tell if a coin has been cleaned. 

[EagleRJO]

On 11/17/2023 at 3:42 PM, Buck Deerslayer said:

one coin I sent to have professionally conserved and it came back from a MS65 to unc details cleaned

Unfortunately this naturally does happen sometimes where there are issues which hide a prior cleaning which likely couldn't be discovered without attempting to conserve the coin.  I'm sorry you also experienced that as I can imagine it's disappointing.

NGC and others can only attempt to conserve a coin, and there is usually no way to know the outcome in advance which should have been clear.  Once a coin has been cleaned in the past there is no way to undo the damage done ...

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/1337/Why-Cleaned-Coins-Cannot-Be-Uncleaned/

[JKK]

On 11/17/2023 at 12:42 PM, Buck Deerslayer said:

Hello thanks for the reply but I have older coins Morgans that have none of the obvious signs of cleaning. I have coins that I have shown to some people who have extensive collections and have been collecting for decades and they can’t understand why these coins came back from NGC as cleaned. I have sent some back for reevaluation only to have NGC reaffirm there decision. Most of the coins from my earlier purchases have been cleaned but as I get more experienced those are far fewer. Another thing I learned is one coin I sent to have professionally conserved and it came back from a MS65 to unc details cleaned. That was the last time I sent a coin in for conservation. 
thanks you all for your feedback as I have expanded my knowledge on how to tell if a coin has been cleaned. 

Grading services are not gods. They have knowledgeable numismatists, good resources, and a lot of experience. None of that makes them infallible--and I'm speaking of the three respectable ones. The dozens of Joe's Grading Services out there are a complete crapshoot by comparison, but they are likelier to have a motive to overgrade because people prefer to be told what they want to hear (and paid to hear).