CMQ = Stacks-Bowers & David Hall New Venture To Replace CAC 0

[GoldFinger1969]

https://forum.cacgrading.com/discussion/1039/brand-new-cac-competitor-from-stacks-and-david-hall

Since CAC is going to be CACG with grading to compete with PCGS and NGC.....CAC stickering will end....so the new CMQ "square hologram" is coming to a slab near you. 

[powermad5000]

YAY! More stickers!                

[powermad5000]

Wouldn't the star designation be the same look they are going for? So, now you will have to get a star designation on the label and a sticker??? Smh.

[Henri Charriere]

Very creative people.  They fall in very nicely with all the people who created stuff no one knew they had to have. Raw is for the common, little people with no imagination. If you accept things in their natural state, these folks will shame you into feeling you are a back-pedaling four-flusher unless you have the newest, the latest, the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Why isn't this slabbed? Why, isn't this stickered?  No, you can't do that! Follow the procedure! First you have to submit it, your choice of TPGS and sarcophagus, and then get the sticker!  Or you can skip the piecemeal approach and send it using one-stop shopping to one of the industry's giants, CMQ. "But I'm just one of the little people," you protest! "I just collect coins."  YOU ARE OBSOLETE!  Better get with it!  Nobody does things that way anymore.  Ah, the Trials and Tribulations of the once humble coin collector.

[Coinbuf]

Old news and your title is misleading.   CMQ got started several months ago, I know a local collector that has used the CMQ service already several times.   He has sent both CAC approved coins and some that were rejected by CAC, the results were as expected a bit scattered, but CMQ is "looser" than CAC as several of his coins that were rejected by CAC passed at CMQ with one or two getting the extra special CMQ-X.   CMQ is more of a marketing gimmick and is not really that much like the service that CAC provides, imo.

Yes CAC stickering will end at some time, but it is rather misleading to state that "CAC stickering will end" which to me implies that is happening tomorrow.   If you read the replies in the post you linked JA himself states that the decision on terminating the stickering business will happen at the end of his ten year contract; although there has been speculation spread through the social media sites that stickering could end sooner than the 10 year horizon if the demand for stickers falls to a very low level.

[samclemen3991]

 

I have no idea what this new sticker service will be like or what effect it will have on coin collecting, but I am one of those little people in coin collecting.  It still surprises me that there seems to be such an anti slabbing sentiment on a board devoted that very thing.

I have never shared this with anyone on a coin board, but here is why the little people NEED slabs.  I hit some hard times in the late 1970's and had to sell much of my coin collection.    However, by the early 1980's the wheel had turned and I found  some excess funds coming my way.

I had spent the lean years thinking about what coins I might collect in the future.  The idea I came up with was to obtain 3 Barber coins, one of each denomination, and then perhaps pick one to be my new focus.  An ad in Coin World (full page if I remember right) offered numerous high grade barbers and the sellers bragged they had something like 125 years of combined numismatic experience.

The coins I ordered arrived and I knew right away something was off.  Our local coin dealer whizzed every coin that came his way to death so I recognized immediately that the half dollar was whizzed.  Both the quarter and the dime had odd gray spots that started turning black within hours of my getting them.  At that point I called and told them about the status of their coins and told them I was returning them.  They called me back and informed me that they (as a group of three experts) remembered those coins well and that they would give no refund.  They claimed I had doctored the coins so any return was null and void.

I spent a day or two stewing and then I remembered they listed a number of organizations they belonged to and how they had ethics to honor.  I called them back and told them I was going to file complaints with their coin organizations.   The fellow on the other end laughed his head off.  He told me how he was great friends with the people I would be calling.  He told me the names of the people I would be speaking with.  He told me what a great laugh they would all get out of it the next time they got together.  The last thing he said before he hung up was , "You really think a hick like you, sitting out there in fly over country, can take on people like us? "

I can look back and think how my complaint might have worked, for better or worse though, what he said was true.  That was the closest I ever came to quitting coin collecting forever.  As one of the little people all I can say is LONG LIVE SLABS, and if some new sticker helps, good for that too.  James

 

[Coinbuf]

@samclemen3991 while there are a couple of very anti TPG individuals on this forum, I would say that the bulk of the members are, much like yourself, quite happy with the services and product the TPG's do.   But that does not mean that there are not deficiencies or areas that could be improved upon.   And it is wise to not only listen to those who love your product but to those who find fault with it as well.

I think that many here can relate to your collecting story and the issues that you faced in the past with problem coins.   I would like to say that those problems are behind us, however, that is not completely true.   TPG's are very good at weeding out a large portion of the chaff that gets sent to them, but mistakes do happen and issues like gradeflation have been and are a large problem in the hobby.

I wholeheartedly agree that TPG's have made the hobby far better in many ways for the average collector, those who do not have the desire or means study coins and learn every possible nuance of grading or variety identification (I put myself into this latter category personally) have had their collecting ability enhanced by TPG's.

I am also for any innovation that helps collectors be able to more easily identify quality coins and reject those that have issues and problems.   CMQ may indeed help with that, but I have to admit I'm cautious when such a service is tied to an auction house, the possible conflict of interests is my concern.   Time will tell if CMQ proves to be a value added service or just a group of experts using it to (possibly) manipulate auction results.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Coinbuf

[zadok]

On 11/11/2023 at 4:13 PM, Coinbuf said:

@samclemen3991 while there are a couple of very anti TPG individuals on this forum, I would say that the bulk of the members are, much like yourself, quite happy with the services and product the TPG's do.   But that does not mean that there are not deficiencies or areas that could be improved upon.   And it is wise to not only listen to those who love your product but to those who find fault with it as well.

I think that many here can relate to your collecting story and the issues that you faced in the past with problem coins.   I would like to say that those problems are behind us, however, that is not completely true.   TPG's are very good at weeding out a large portion of the chaff that gets sent to them, but mistakes do happen and issues like gradeflation have been and are a large problem in the hobby.

I wholeheartedly agree that TPG's have made the hobby far better in many ways for the average collector, those who do not have the desire or means study coins and learn every possible nuance of grading or variety identification (I put myself into this latter category personally) have had their collecting ability enhanced by TPG's.

I am also for any innovation that helps collectors be able to more easily identify quality coins and reject those that have issues and problems.   CMQ may indeed help with that, but I have to admit I'm cautious when such a service is tied to an auction house, the possible conflict of interests is my concern.   Time will tell if CMQ proves to be a value added service or just a group of experts using it to (possibly) manipulate auction results.

...mostly agree, i personally dont think that CMQ will replace anything...

[Just Bob]

On 11/11/2023 at 10:02 AM, samclemen3991 said:

 

I have no idea what this new sticker service will be like or what effect it will have on coin collecting, but I am one of those little people in coin collecting.  It still surprises me that there seems to be such an anti slabbing sentiment on a board devoted that very thing.

I have never shared this with anyone on a coin board, but here is why the little people NEED slabs.  I hit some hard times in the late 1970's and had to sell much of my coin collection.    However, by the early 1980's the wheel had turned and I found  some excess funds coming my way.

I had spent the lean years thinking about what coins I might collect in the future.  The idea I came up with was to obtain 3 Barber coins, one of each denomination, and then perhaps pick one to be my new focus.  An ad in Coin World (full page if I remember right) offered numerous high grade barbers and the sellers bragged they had something like 125 years of combined numismatic experience.

The coins I ordered arrived and I knew right away something was off.  Our local coin dealer whizzed every coin that came his way to death so I recognized immediately that the half dollar was whizzed.  Both the quarter and the dime had odd gray spots that started turning black within hours of my getting them.  At that point I called and told them about the status of their coins and told them I was returning them.  They called me back and informed me that they (as a group of three experts) remembered those coins well and that they would give no refund.  They claimed I had doctored the coins so any return was null and void.

I spent a day or two stewing and then I remembered they listed a number of organizations they belonged to and how they had ethics to honor.  I called them back and told them I was going to file complaints with their coin organizations.   The fellow on the other end laughed his head off.  He told me how he was great friends with the people I would be calling.  He told me the names of the people I would be speaking with.  He told me what a great laugh they would all get out of it the next time they got together.  The last thing he said before he hung up was , "You really think a hick like you, sitting out there in fly over country, can take on people like us? "

I can look back and think how my complaint might have worked, for better or worse though, what he said was true.  That was the closest I ever came to quitting coin collecting forever.  As one of the little people all I can say is LONG LIVE SLABS, and if some new sticker helps, good for that too.  James

 

Do you remember the name of the dealer?

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/11/2023 at 10:32 AM, Coinbuf said:

Old news and your title is misleading.   CMQ got started several months ago, I know a local collector that has used the CMQ service already several times.   He has sent both CAC approved coins and some that were rejected by CAC, the results were as expected a bit scattered, but CMQ is "looser" than CAC as several of his coins that were rejected by CAC passed at CMQ with one or two getting the extra special CMQ-X.   CMQ is more of a marketing gimmick and is not really that much like the service that CAC provides, imo. Yes CAC stickering will end at some time, but it is rather misleading to state that "CAC stickering will end" which to me implies that is happening tomorrow.   If you read the replies in the post you linked JA himself states that the decision on terminating the stickering business will happen at the end of his ten year contract; although there has been speculation spread through the social media sites that stickering could end sooner than the 10 year horizon if the demand for stickers falls to a very low level.

CB, I never meant to imply that CMQ just started and CAC beans are ending next week....just that the phase-out and phase-in are happening.

I'm more surprised that CMQ started than CAC stickering ending. 

[samclemen3991]

Actually Just Bob the purchase was from a company with some generic name like "Coin Kings" or some such thing.

They were a trio of dealers but I couldn't even begin to guess their names.  I suck at names.  This very morning I am working on an update bid for an account I got in March and for the life of me I can't remember the owners name or the managers.  A long term fault of mine.  Sorry.  James

 

[numisport]

Dirty little secrets enough to write a book. Many have wondered why PCGS coins have had higher resale value and even higher Grey sheet values for similar NGC coins. The writing has been on the wall for years. 

Strange thing is that even after their board of experts had their influence there still is huge numbers of PCGS coins that sell for a discount without that CAC sticker. I'm not confused but those collectors that drank the coolaid sure must be. Of course I own PCGS graded material like most of you but only after careful consideration would I purchase PCGS coins that don't have fourth party verification. David Hall fourth party verification would be meaningless to me. Many of the Newman coins graded by NGC were crossed to PCGS a grade lower by Legend whose owner was one of their experts on the board. That's okay with me to have another opinion but do you see the conflict of interest there ? So even with another stickering service to be impressed by, the bottom line is why don't they get it right the first time especially with turnaroud times at 4 to 5 months. 

[Sandon]

    I've thought about starting a stickering service myself. Like CAC's or CMQ's, my sticker would mean that in my opinion the coin in the stickered holder is correctly graded and attractive for the grade.  I would only charge my expenses and perform this service for the benefit of the numismatic community.  However, there would be a catch.  If I find the coin to be overgraded or unattractive, I would remove the coin from the holder and return it to its owner in a "body bag" (a flip for those who aren't familiar with this term).  Based on what I see on bourse floors and lot viewings, I would be making frequent use of a hammer and using many flips.

   Any takers for this service?

[Coinbuf]

On 11/12/2023 at 1:38 PM, Sandon said:

    I've thought about starting a stickering service myself. Like CAC's or CMQ's, my sticker would mean that in my opinion the coin in the stickered holder is correctly graded and attractive for the grade.  I would only charge my expenses and perform this service for the benefit of the numismatic community.  However, there would be a catch.  If I find the coin to be overgraded or unattractive, I would remove the coin from the holder and return it to its owner in a "body bag" (a flip for those who aren't familiar with this term).  Based on what I see on bourse floors and lot viewings, I would be making frequent use of a hammer and using many flips.

   Any takers for this service?

I think the answer is NOPE!  

[zadok]

On 11/12/2023 at 3:38 PM, Sandon said:

    I've thought about starting a stickering service myself. Like CAC's or CMQ's, my sticker would mean that in my opinion the coin in the stickered holder is correctly graded and attractive for the grade.  I would only charge my expenses and perform this service for the benefit of the numismatic community.  However, there would be a catch.  If I find the coin to be overgraded or unattractive, I would remove the coin from the holder and return it to its owner in a "body bag" (a flip for those who aren't familiar with this term).  Based on what I see on bourse floors and lot viewings, I would be making frequent use of a hammer and using many flips.

   Any takers for this service?

...to paraphrase Chief Brody..."u r going to need a bigger hammer..."....