FYI - coin die varieties 1 1

[dprince1138]

I will provide supporting evidence for some of the prior listed die varieties.  For example, the 1834 Capped Bust half dollar listed above, which is of the die variety O-121.   I generally validate from at least 2 sources.  Interestingly enough, and as I have mentioned elsewhere, it is not uncommon that another source may list additional clues.  However, these additional clues are generally not as important, such as a star point being 1/2 mm closer to Liberty's hair.

"Variety Attribution: Obverse-Stair Step Date. Star 1 is 2 1/2 mm. from drapery. Date is 6 3/4 mm. with slender sharp figures that are progressively lower and closer together from left to right, hence the stair step designation. Mouth is slightly open and an ugly curl to upper lip. The most prominent nose to any 1834."

"Reverse- 50 C. is 1 3/4 mm. and well centered. The 5 is higher than 0 and tipped more sharply to left. The horned top 5 of this variety has been punched over a 5 with a small straight top. The latter visible at top and outer loop. Arrow to A is 3/4 mm. Center line of stripe 3 extends below shield. line 3 of stripe 5 is bold to crossbar 2. Border of shield at lowest point extends right. Upper right serif of I in PLURIBUS is missing or filled. left side of T in line with right side of I."

Below is a set of comparison images.  The top image is from a die variety source and the bottom image is from my coin.

[powermad5000]

How do I achieve 1/2 of a mm or 3/4 of a mm??? As far as I am aware there is not a scale for such a measurement.

If we are talking micrometers or nanometers, I don't find this a useful measurement for anything except scientific research and has no place in numismatics.

Edited November 12, 2023 by powermad5000

[dprince1138]

 I used right angles for a better presentation of the lean angle.

[dprince1138]

For many die varieties, there are sub types. such as size of letters (large, small), size of mint mark (tiny, small, large) or size of denomination numbers (large, medium).

Listed previously, is the coin 1877 S Seated Liberty Half dollar, but I had mistakenly indicated that it was of the die variety WB-13.  It is actually of the die variety WB-20 (reference WB-104).

The following is an example of 2 different sources providing different identifiers for a die variety.
(The most likely explaination of the differences in detail is that the additional details are superfluous. )

NGC ;
"TYPE 2, VERY SMALL S, NO DRAPERY" (Type 2 is indicated  by the buds on the olive branch
in the eagle's claws on the reverse being closed\solid).

BillBugertBooks;
Date right. (*Date seems to be positioned more to the left*).
Diagonal die lines in the rock support behind Liberty’s heel. 
    (Extremely small)
Cross die lines to the left of the pole in Liberty’s lap  
    (Extremely small).
No drapery below the elbow.
Faint die cracks around and between stars 5-7. 
    (Very small)
Recut stars 3-6 and 11-13.
Very small S mintmark below the feather tip; vertical die line thru the center of the mintmark shaping it as a “$”.
Upside down “V” shaped die lines in the eagle’s lower left wing. 
    (Extremely small).
Unfinished under the eagle’s right wing. 
Two die lines in the eagle’s lower right wing.
    (Did not see on source example and only saw 1 crack on coin).
Rust lumps on all devices.
    (There is some sign of abrasive cleaning)

[dprince1138]

There are a number of die varieties not listed in the NGC source and I have found other sources to compensate.  This is in addition to those die varities that are listed in the NGC source with no descriptions.   I will probably create a compendium of these sites and any special considerations on how to use them.

There is a set of die varieties in which the 3 in the date 1883 has a broken or weak lower curl.  There are 7 variations of the "broken 3" die.  The variation that I have is F-112 (I had previously indicated F-105, but the amount of weakness varies between varieties), R2.

Obverse 12: Broken 3, Medium Date, Slight Downward Slope
Reverse L: Die Cracks In Wreath
https://www.seateddimevarieties.com/date_mintmark/1883_112page.htm

(last 3 images are from variety source).

[dprince1138]

To my pleasant surprise, upon further investigation, I discovered that the die variety of the 1866 Seating Liberty half dollar that I had recently purchased is a rarity 4 variety.  I discovered that the presence of  very tiny tops of errant numbers in the denticles was not the unique identifier of the variety in question.

The source for additional information is;
http://www.lsccweb.org/BillBugertBooks/Bugert-Vol-I-SF.pdf
(see pages 116 and 126, attached)

First and foremost, the mint mark of S on an 1866 seated liberty half dollar has 6 different positions.  

The following attributes define the die variety WB-9 \ WB-103 \ VP-002;
Motto.
Type 1 (lower bud on olive branch open).
Mint S, position E (located in crotch of tip of arrow feathers and tip of olive branch stem).
Date right, with an errant 86 in the dentils below the date.
Recut stars 3, 4, 10 and 11.
Weak die crack from rock support to second 6.
Weak lower half of the mintmark and tops of the letters (HA)LF
Heavily clashed die with a die clash above the eagle’s right claw.
Weak tail feathers from die wear and die polishing.
Weak upper edge of the scroll notably above (TR)UST.

As mentioned previously, I highly recommend investing in a jewelers loupe.  I have found that the 90x
lens on my second set of lenses has been extremely useful.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08RSB7S79?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details
 

[dprince1138]

R1 Common, readily available
R2 Less common - Available at most shows, but in limited quantity
R3 Scarce - somewhat difficult to find, only a few likely at larger shows
R4 Very scarce - may or may not find at larger shows/auctions
R5 Rare - unlikely more than 5 at shows or auctions each year
R6 Very rare - Almost never seen, only one may be offered for sale in a year’s time
R7 Prohibitively rare - one may be offered for sale once every few years
R8 Unique, or nearly so

Edited November 15, 2023 by dprince1138

[dprince1138]

Today, I received an 1891 Seated Liberty dime that I had purchased, and while I was QC'ing (60x) it against another better quality dime (1887), the better coin had a number of small die cracks on the reverse.  I immediately took it off of ebay (ebay coin section was unavailable for hours).  

I find it very troublesome that there are at least 3 different sources for Seated Liberty dimes and all have different information.  The same for Capped Bust half dollars and dimes.

I will make an inventory of all of the die crack (or other aberrations) and will most likely send the coin to NGC.  

[Newenglandrarities]

While I know your response will be “thanks for the bump” I do feel that you need to tone down your approach here.  My question for you (which I’m sure you will not answer) is WHY this approach.  I mean, you obviously have been told that your approach is rubbing people the wrong way.  Here are your options.  
 

1. participate with everyone and try to help without copy/paste other references.  
2.  Learn from the seasoned and knowledgeable collectors/experts/etc here and add your opinion in a respectful way.  
 

Nobody here wants to attack or cancel anyone.  Just your approach is pretty tough to deal with

Edited November 17, 2023 by Newenglandrarities

[dprince1138]

Thank you for your participation!

[Sandon]

On 11/15/2023 at 9:31 PM, dprince1138 said:

I find it very troublesome that there are at least 3 different sources for Seated Liberty dimes and all have different information. 

   I have collected Liberty Seated dimes by date and mint for many years and also take note of and have acquired die varieties that I find particularly interesting or significant, such as different hubs, different date or mintmark sizes or styles, strongly repunched dates or mintmarks, or clear doubled dies. Most other varieties aren't interesting enough to attract attention from any significant number of collectors. 

   I assume that you are referring to the books by Kamal M. Ahwash (1977) and Brian Greer (1992 and, according to the deluxe edition of the "Redbook", 2005) and the online reference seateddimevarieties.com by Gerry Fortin.  Mr. Ahwash died decades ago, and the bibliography in the deluxe "Redbook" (7th edition at p. 1484) describes his Encyclopedia of United States Liberty Seated Dimes 1837-1891 as a "reference of historical interest." "Ahwash" numbers are almost never used now.  Greer's The Complete Guide to Liberty Seated Dimes and system of classification (Greer numbers) appears to have been mostly superseded by Fortin's "web-book" and its "F" numbers. I'm not aware of any significant varieties that are listed in either the Ahwash or Greer references that aren't listed by Fortin, who lists more varieties than either of his predecessors.

On 11/15/2023 at 9:31 PM, dprince1138 said:

the better [1887] coin had a number of small die cracks on the reverse. 

On 11/15/2023 at 9:31 PM, dprince1138 said:

I will make an inventory of all of the die crack (or other aberrations) and will most likely send the coin to NGC.  

     Small die cracks aren't "aberrations". They are normal results of die wear and are very common on nineteenth century coins, as well as on more recent issues. Fortin notes reverse die cracks as diagnostics of 1887 F-102, 107, 109, 110, 111, 112, and 114. Have you checked the Fortin reference to see if your coin is one of these varieties? (The 1887 Seated dime had a mintage of 11,283,229 pieces, and dozens of different die pairs were likely used to coin all of them. It is unlikely that anyone will ever catalog the characteristics of every die used, nor would most of them attract much collector interest.)

   As NGC VarietyPlus doesn't list any 1887 Liberty Seated dime varieties, it is extremely unlikely that NGC would attribute your coin as a variety even if it already has a Fortin number. Seated Liberty Dimes (1837-1891) | VarietyPlus® | NGC (ngccoin.com).  ANACS might attribute it; check the ANACS site. If the coin doesn't appear to be a listed variety, you might consider sending photos of it to Fortin himself, whose e-mail address is included on his website.   

[dprince1138]

Thank you for your participation!

Edited November 18, 2023 by dprince1138

[dprince1138]

Well, my eye (left) has had enough for the evening.  So far, I seem to have found several die cracks and a potential die clash, all on the reverse.  I have not found anything on the obverse at this time.

 

[powermad5000]

Just so you know @Sandon, your advice will be ignored as is everyone else by this person. And the stream of misinformation will just continue no matter your desire to properly educate.

[dprince1138]

Thank you for your participation!

[dprince1138]

I found a dime on ebay with more pronounced die cracks on the left side of the reverse.  Right off hand, it would seem to be the same, or similar, die variety.

There is no mention of the die crack nor a die variety.   From looking on a die variety source, it seems that the variety of this die may be F-110

https://www.seateddimevarieties.com/pictorial/1887.htm

 

Edited November 18, 2023 by dprince1138

[dprince1138]

I have noticed that certain die variety attributes, such as die cracks or clashes become especially difficult to see, if it all, as a coin becomes worn. This is another reason for considering a higher magnification lens.

Previously, I had mentioned an 1836 P capped bust half dime, with an LM-5 die variety.  First of all, I had mistakenly indicated that the die variety is an R3, when it is actually an R2.

The following are the set of attributes that identify the die variety LM-5 \ VP-6.
Small 5C.
Die clash under liberty, just below shoulder.
Repunched 3 in the date.
Repunched stars 11 and 12, causing split points.
Repunched 5 in the denomination.
Die crack through olive branch and 5C.
Weak impression on SE of reverse.
Repunched N out of alignment.

(Due to wearing, die clash and crack barely visible.)

Edited November 20, 2023 by dprince1138

[dprince1138]

I had purchased a number of junk coins.  I was relisting them on ebay and my protocol is to check the NGC variety documentation.  I discovered that one of the junk coins was a repunched date \ weak die variety.  This was on an 1873 (large 5C) capped bust half dime, designation LM-5, R1.

Perhaps the seller knew of this fact, but it was not mentioned.  I would believe that any additional attributes of a coin should be listed.

 

[dprince1138]

Also, there are a number of die varieties that are planned circulation dies, such as changing the size of a date.  Generally, one date size is less common than the other.  I have another junk coin with a small date, rather than a large date.  Many of these sort of die changes can take place at the outset of a new series.  For example, in this case, an 1837 Seated Liberty Half Dime began with a large date, but changed to a small date later in the production run.

In this case, at grade AU50;
Large date - $475
Small date - $490

These mid-production date size changes can vary in rarity.  Also, there are various other planned circulation die changes.  For example, small and large rim lettering.

[Sandon]

On 11/25/2023 at 4:18 PM, dprince1138 said:

I discovered that one of the junk coins was a repunched date \ weak die variety.  This was on an 1873 [sic, should have been "1837"] (large 5C) capped bust half dime, designation LM-5, R1.

Perhaps the seller knew of this fact, but it was not mentioned.  I would believe that any additional attributes of a coin should be listed.

   "R1" means that it is a common variety.  All U.S. coins made through 1837 or so are classifiable as die varieties because of the way dies were made at that time, but in my experience unless the variety is believed to be "R5" or higher or has some particularly distinctive feature warranting a listing in a standard guide such as the "Redbook", it will not command a significant premium over the generic listings for the type, date, and grade. "R1" and "R2" varieties will generally command no premium whatsoever, while "R3" and "R4" varieties may command a modest to moderate premium if the coin is in higher grade. 

    The Good details, bent, severely scratched and harshly cleaned 1837 Capped Bust half dime of an "R1" variety touted here would be of no interest to the small group of advanced collectors who collect this type by Logan-McCloskey ("LM") listed die varieties and would seek high grade examples of such common varieties. It is indeed a "junk coin", honestly saleable for a modest price only to young, casual or budget collectors, to whom the die variety attribution would be of little or no interest.

   Although the rarity scale used for earlier U.S. coin die varieties has differing interpretations, it is most frequently used with the following definitions:

R1     Over 1,250 known. (This could be any number over 1,250, no matter how high.)

R2     501-1,250 known.

R3     201-500 known.

R4     76-200 known.

R5     31-75 known.

R6     13-30 known.

R7      4-12 known.

R8     1-3 known. (Sometimes defined as "2-3 known", with "R9" used for unique varieties.)

See, for example, Breen, Walter, Walter Breen's Complete Encyclopedia of U.S. and Colonial Coins (1988) at p. 707; Greer, Brian, The Complete Guide to Liberty Seated Dimes at p.22.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Sandon

[dprince1138]

Thank you for the bump.

[dprince1138]

Interesting.  It appears that I may have identified a die variety for an 1832 capped bust dime, designation JR-4, R3.  There are no specimens on ebay at this time.

 

[powermad5000]

On 11/25/2023 at 6:27 PM, Sandon said:

It is indeed a "junk coin"

I am sensing someone getting ripped off again by the false classification of some variety and misattribution of rarity.

[dprince1138]

Thank you for the bump.

[dprince1138]

I just purchased an 1890 seated liberty dime, for which I am not able to identify the die variety.  I had seen the die variety on an 1887 coin (see above).  The seller simply said that there were some errors.

Also, I verified that the seller had a return policy.  Many sellers do not have one.

Also, the line in the top photo is where I had attempted to merge two larger images that did not fit on the screen.

Also, the M is probably damage.  I am referring to the variety of die cracks on the left side and bottom.  There seems to be a few minor cracks on the obverse.

Edited November 27, 2023 by dprince1138

[dprince1138]

I am quite aware of the meaning of the rarity ratings.   There is nothing wrong with the statements that I have made.

[powermad5000]

On 11/27/2023 at 11:43 AM, dprince1138 said:

There is nothing wrong with the statements that I have made.

Really? In regards to your definitions of rarity in this thread???? SMH! 

[dprince1138]

Thanks for the bump.

On a side note, I assume that you are aware that there are 100s, and more likely 1,000s, of R1 die variety specimens posted on ebay, much less other sites that sells coins.  Including the rare rating is only an informative element, of which even acts as a helpful notification to a viewer.

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by dprince1138

[powermad5000]

Your problem is that you use eBay constantly as a coin reference of which there are tens of 1000's of coins inaccurately listed by sellers.

[dprince1138]

Thanks for the bump.