Confused on improperly annealed and missing cladding 1 1

[CREDTO51]

I believe this is missing cladding , but could it be improperly annealed , thank you 

Beginner collector 

[Lem E]

I would say it’s most likely stained.

[Coinbuf]

Looks like it picked up some tone from being buried in the dirt or stained coin to me from your photos.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Coinbuf

[Halbrook Family]

Isn't what he is describing the coin to be a lamination error? Not that this coin is a lamination error. I don't see why a lamination error would be worth more than face value however. You do see those coins around for sale. Or is a lamination error only when part of the coin is messed up? Clipped planchet is another error I don't get. 

[J P M]

It looks to be stained. It may have a die crack on the obverse but it is hard to tell from the photo and would not be worth a premium due to the coins condition.  

[RWB]

On 10/27/2023 at 9:53 PM, CREDTO51 said:

but could it be improperly annealed

What is "annealing" ?

[Mike Meenderink]

This coin has a partial clad layer that is stressed. The planchet clad layers were under spec thickness and did not properly adhere to the planchet after circulation.. This is a common condition of clad coins. Not worth more than face value.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Mike Meenderink

[Mike Meenderink]

On 10/28/2023 at 8:27 AM, RWB said:

What is "annealing" ?

Sintering process that hardens and finalizes the bare copper core. Often this is done above or below recommended temperatures. The molecules of copper begin to come up through the clad layer and also look like missing clad layer.

[EagleRJO]

On 10/28/2023 at 9:51 AM, edhalbrook said:

Isn't what he is describing the coin to be a lamination error? ... Or is a lamination error only when part of the coin is messed up? Clipped planchet is another error I don't get. 

See the Error-Ref.com links on lamination errors, or more correctly "delamination" errors, as well as clipped planchet errors.  That is a great site in general to learn about errors.

Lamination errors usually involve peeling or loss of outer coin layers, which is not what occured to the op's coin.  They typically are not very valuable unless it's like a complete loss of cladding on one whole side before striking.

https://www.error-ref.com/lamination-error-loss-before-strke/

https://www.error-ref.com/_curved_clips_/

Edited October 29, 2023 by EagleRJO

[EagleRJO]

On 10/28/2023 at 12:01 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

Sintering process that hardens and finalizes the bare copper core. Often this is done above or below recommended temperatures. The molecules of copper begin to come up through the clad layer and also look like missing clad layer.

No, "sIntering" has nothing to do with coin production.  It refers to an industrial processing of powdered metals.  Don't believe everything you read from a simple google search.

The term has been mis-associated with coin lamination errors or discoloration on other boards, and even on older slab labels for some coins with a dark colored cladding.  This was incorrectly described as "sintered plating", thought to be from metal dust baked onto a coin during the annealing process.  This is now referred to as "improper annealing" since "sintering" in not correctly used relative to coin production.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintering

https://www.error-ref.com/improper-annealing/

Edited October 30, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Hoghead515]

Looks like some of my metal detector finds on modern clad coins thats been under the dirt for a period of time.  

[Mike Meenderink]

Sinterimg is an overarching term for heat treating metal. Please stop trying to educate me with your word play.

[Sandon]

   A week ago, I attended a coin show where a dealer had an uncirculated clad Roosevelt dime that PCGS had certified as having been struck on an "improperly annealed planchet". The coin had a uniformly bright coppery color on both sides but was of normal thickness and had a full strike.  The dealer was asking $250 for it. I don't actively collect error coins and don't know whether this would be a reasonable price, although I suspect that there isn't a big market for a coin featuring such an anomaly among knowledgeable collectors.

   As I understand it, "annealing" is a process in which planchets are heated and then plunged into cool water in order to harden them prior to striking. Error-ref.com provides information on coins struck from improperly annealed planchets here: https://www.error-ref.com/?s=improperly+annealed.

   I can't tell whether the 2018-D dime in the initial post is simply discolored from exposure to environmental factors as is often the case, was improperly annealed, or exhibits some other mint error.  I doubt that the coin is missing part of the cladding layer on one side and the entire layer on the other, as this would be very unusual, and the coin appears to be of normal thickness and, accordingly, has a normal strike.

[CREDTO51]

Definition: For decades error collectors have puzzled over copper-nickel and Cu-Ni clad coins struck on planchets with a layer of copper on the surface. In times past, these errors were called “copper wash” and “sintered plating” errors. The 1962 nickel shown below is a typical example.

[powermad5000]

I still see the normal clad layer with its typical coloration on the center of the obverse and in spots on the reverse, so I don't believe it is either a cladding issue or an annealing issue. I own several lamination error coins and they do not look like this. I think the OP's coin is stained and has some environmental damage especially between 1 o'clock and 3 o'clock on the obverse.

@edhalbrook the simplest way I can describe a lamination error to someone who does not know what it looks like is when you have a chrome faucet and a part of the chrome "chips off" and you see the metal underneath the chrome in that spot. The OP's coin to me looks like on the obverse an area that the cladding is bubbling up from environmental damage.

My humble opinion only.

[EagleRJO]

On 10/28/2023 at 10:17 PM, CREDTO51 said:

Definition: For decades error collectors have puzzled over copper-nickel and Cu-Ni clad coins struck on planchets with a layer of copper on the surface. In times past, these errors were called “copper wash” and “sintered plating” errors. The 1962 nickel shown below is a typical example.

That is a direct quote of the error-ref.com page on "Improper Annealing" referenced above (https://www.error-ref.com/improper-annealing/), which correctly notes sintered is no longer used and continues as follows ... 

Quote

[The 1962 nickel shown below is a typical example.] It has a thick layer of peeling copper on the right side of the obverse face. The rest of the obverse face and all of the reverse face is black. Copper, red, black, brown, and gray are colors typically found in these errors. Coverage can be complete or incomplete. The copper can range from a slight tinge to a thick coating.

The dime originally posted, with what looks to me like more of a rust color on parts of the coin, doesn't look like the 1962 nickel with improper annealing referenced which is attached.  It also doesn't look like the other examples of improper annealing there or elsewhere I have seen certified examples with that mint error.

I don't think anyone can say for sure exactly what happened to your coin to end up with that discolored appearance, but it seems the consensus is environmental damage.  You could submit it to a TPG for a more definitive answer, but even if identified as a mint error just discolored coins seem to be going for considerably less than the cost of submission at around $100 with a membership.

[dcarr]

On 10/28/2023 at 9:27 AM, RWB said:

What is "annealing" ?

 

On 10/28/2023 at 10:01 AM, Mike Meenderink said:

Sintering process that hardens and finalizes the bare copper core. Often this is done above or below recommended temperatures. The molecules of copper begin to come up through the clad layer and also look like missing clad layer.

In a mint, "annealing" is a process where planchets are heated and then cooled to relieve the internal stresses that developed in the metal during the rolling and punching processes.

Annealing has the effect of softening the metal to make the planchets easier to strike and reduce wear and breakage of dies.

"Sintering" is a process to solidify metal particles into a solid mass. This can be useful when the powder is molded into a shape and then heated to a point where the metal particles fuse together, but not completely melt. The result is a seemingly solid piece of metal in the intended molded shape.

Sintered metal errors on coins are typically the result of dirty metal particles that get stuck on planchets and then are fused onto them during the annealing process. Such sintered metal layers on a coin are typically very thin (like electro-plating) and do not generally present as laminations or delaminations. Note that clad layers in a coin are not sintered (they are melted metal which was cooled, rolled out to thickness, and then the layers bonded together).

"Heat Treating" typically refers to a process to harden metal (such as a coinage die), and/or to temper an item to make is less susceptible to cracking.

PS:

The coin shown at the beginning of this discussion appears to have been stained by something after it left the Mint.

[Coinbuf]

Now that is some serious irony. dcarr schooling Roger.  

[EagleRJO]

On 10/30/2023 at 6:41 AM, dcarr said:

Sintered metal errors on coins are typically the result of dirty metal particles that get stuck on planchets and then are fused onto them during the annealing process. Such sintered metal layers on a coin are typically very thin (like electro-plating) and do not generally present as laminations or delaminations.

Sintered is not the correct term for metal dust possibly baked onto a coin surface, or have anything to do with coin production.  It was improperly used by TPG's in the past to describe a mint error for a coin with darkened surfaces which may have also been peeling.  That is correctly described now as just "improper annealing" as noted on the Error-Ref.com page linked above.

[dcarr]

On 10/30/2023 at 2:27 PM, EagleRJO said:

Sintered is not the correct term for metal dust possibly baked onto a coin surface, or have anything to do with coin production.  It was improperly used by TPG's in the past to describe a mint error for a coin with darkened surfaces which may have also been peeling.  That is correctly described now as just "improper annealing" as noted on the Error-Ref.com page linked above.

I think "sintered metal error" is a reasonable term for contaminated surfaces that are "baked on". "Improper annealing" is also suitable.

[dcarr]

On 10/28/2023 at 2:14 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

Sinterimg is an overarching term for heat treating metal. Please stop trying to educate me with your word play.

As you recently told a "Newbie" poster: "you need EDUCATION".

Here is a reasonable and accurate description from the internet:

"Sintering or frittage is the process of compacting and forming a solid mass of material by pressure or heat without melting it to the point of liquefaction. Sintering happens as part of a manufacturing process used with metals, ceramics, plastics, and other materials. The nanoparticles in the sintered material diffuse across the boundaries of the particles, fusing the particles together and creating a solid piece."

Edited October 30, 2023 by dcarr

[EagleRJO]

On 10/30/2023 at 4:59 PM, dcarr said:

I think "sintered metal error" is a reasonable term for contaminated surfaces that are "baked on". "Improper annealing" is also suitable.

Sintered refers to an industrial process of heating just powdered metal alone below melt point to form shapes and doesn't have anything to do with coin production, cladding or errors involving contaminated surfaces, and why the term was changed to "improper annealing" relative to coins.

If you look on reputable sites like error-ref.com linked above you will see references to "sintered plating" being used "in times past" to describe these "improper annealing" errors which is how TPG's label these now.  @RWB may have more info on the improper use of that term as he wrote a book "From Mine to Mint" on the coin production process.

[dcarr]

On 10/30/2023 at 3:47 PM, EagleRJO said:

Sintered refers to an industrial process of heating just powdered metal alone below melt point to form shapes and doesn't have anything to do with coin production, cladding or errors involving contaminated surfaces, and why the term was changed to "improper annealing" relative to coins.

If you look on reputable sites like error-ref.com linked above you will see references to "sintered plating" being used "in times past" to describe these "improper annealing" errors which is how TPG's label these now.  @RWB may have more info on the improper use of that term as he wrote a book "From Mine to Mint" on the coin production process.

During blanking and coining operations, large quantities of tiny metal particles are generated. This is especially the case with cupro-nickel.

Those particles could get onto blank planchets and then be permanently "sintered" onto those planchets during annealing.

Another thing that can happen is if the annealing process is too hot, too long in duration, and/or if too much oxygen gets to the planchets while they are hot, planchets with copper content can oxidize and turn dark.

Looking at the "Black Beauty" nickels of the late 1950s, they appear to have a dull, dark, and greasy look, even if uncirculated. This is not a characteristic of merely an oxidized planchet. They are consistent in appearance with some sort of adherents on the planchets prior to striking. Classic "chocolate brown" medals, as issued by the US Mint, often come with proof-like fields. These medals are repeatedly struck and annealed. Each time they are annealed, they turn dark brown. Subsequent strikes leave the brown color but impart more relief and a proof-like finish. So an oxidized planchet alone does not generally produce a dull finish after striking. My theory, although unproven, is that the "Black Beauty" nickels got that way due to sintered metal particles on the surface and not by oxidation alone.

RWB is an expert in researching government archives. I am not. But he is not an engineer, metallurgist, or chemist, and he has never worked in a mint or in metal fabrication.

I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering and I own and operate my own mint.

RWB and I once had a disagreement over whether or not a gouge on a blank hub would still be visible after it was hubbed. He stated that it would not. I indicated that it certainly could and even a relatively shallow lathe mark on a blank hub could still be visible after hubbing. I have actually hubbed dies, so I challenged him to a $5,000 wager on the matter, but he did not reply. I later did a test hubbing to show that a series of moderately-deep scratches on an otherwise blank hub were still visible after hubbing.

So don't necessarily take RWB's (or anyone else's) claims about the minting process as completely accurate.

Edited October 30, 2023 by dcarr

[EagleRJO]

On 10/30/2023 at 7:02 PM, dcarr said:

Those particles could get onto blank planchets and then be permanently "sintered" onto those planchets during annealing.

I am also an engineer, and as a fellow engineer you should know that term is improperly used relative to discoloration errors from a powder on a solid metal, and why the TPG's changed that term as noted on reputable sites like error-ref.com and with current labeling of those errors which is now identified only as "improper annealing".

As far as I know it's not a term used by the mint for something which could occur during annealing, or as part of coin production at all, and no longer used by TPG's relative to coin production or errors.  But many more experienced collectors will likely know what you are referring to if used like with the "Black Beauty" nickels, which I think some TPG's incorrectly labeled a while ago as "sintered plating".

Edited October 30, 2023 by EagleRJO

[dcarr]

On 10/30/2023 at 5:08 PM, EagleRJO said:

I am also an engineer, and as a fellow engineer you should know that term is improperly used relative to discoloration errors from a powder on a solid metal, and why the TPG's changed that term as noted on reputable sites like error-ref.com and with current labeling of those errors which is now identified only as "improper annealing".

As far as I know it's not a term used by the mint for something which could occur during annealing, or as part of coin production at all, and no longer used by TPG's relative to coin production or errors.  But many more experienced collectors will likely know what you are referring to if used like with the "Black Beauty" nickels, which I think some TPG's incorrectly labeled a while ago as "sintered plating".

I don't believe that it has been proven that "Black Beauty" nickels are not "sintered plating".

Even though the Mint never intended to use sintering in any process, it could still happen on a small scale accidentally.

If metal particles are permanently bonded to a solid metal surface by the application of heat and/or pressure then that fits the definition of sintering as far as I'm concerned.

But I'm not married to the term, so either descriptor is ok with me.

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by dcarr

[EagleRJO]

On 10/30/2023 at 9:41 PM, dcarr said:

I don't believe that it has been proven that "Black Beauty" nickels are not "sintered plating"

Getting pretty far off track here, but one last thought.  It is a fact that TPG's presently use "improper annealing" instead of the "siltered plating" term formerly used, as the latter is really a contradiction in terms or as a minimum confusing.

While "sintered" could be applied to powdered metal that ends up on a planchet which is then solidified with heat, the plating that supposedly affects is already solid so it can't be "sintered plating", and likely why the term for that error was changed.  Maybe if the powdered metal contaminate didn't affect the already solid outer coin layer, but I understand that's what occurs.  And if the mint has ever used "sintered" concerning coin production, plating or defects I am all ears.

[By the way, from your handle, some of your posts and your location I assume your first name is Dan, and I admire a lot of your work and have acquired a few pieces I really liked.  We have had some interesting discussions about the 1964-D Fantasy Morgan and the mint finding master hubs for a 1964 (P) Morgan being considered.  It would also make a lot of sense having some disagreements with Roger. ]

Back to the op's coin, I seriously doubt that appearance and rust like color would result from improper annealing, or metal dust that ended up on the planchet when being annealed.  There are also no signs of any flaking or an added layer from such metal dust contamination.  I think the pictures on error-ref.com clearly show how that error would present, as well as photos of slabbed error coins that I have seen with a darkened or off-color appearance identified as improperly annealed, including the "Black Beauty" error coins.

Edited October 31, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Mike Meenderink]

Oh God the extent people will go to to be the smartest is ridiculous.  Let's just settle on HEAT TREATMENT. its not that important the terms have been iterchanged hanged for years. Its not the name that's important its the process and it about heat with a quench to simultaneously soften and toughen the coin.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Mike Meenderink

[EagleRJO]

Disagreement can be a bedrock of scientific principles or advancement, and I find discussions like these with @dcarr interesting and informative.  If you don't think so you are free to skip to the next topic.

Edited October 31, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Mike Meenderink]

On 10/30/2023 at 2:07 PM, dcarr said:

As you recently told a "Newbie" poster: "you need EDUCATION".

Here is a reasonable and accurate description from the internet:

"Sintering or frittage is the process of compacting and forming a solid mass of material by pressure or heat without melting it to the point of liquefaction. Sintering happens as part of a manufacturing process used with metals, ceramics, plastics, and other materials. The nanoparticles in the sintered material diffuse across the boundaries of the particles, fusing the particles together and creating a solid piece."

At least I don't make a living off of tracing the Mona Lisa, adding borders, coloring it in with crayon then passing it off as an my art.  Bahaahaa

[VKurtB]

On 10/28/2023 at 3:14 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

Sinterimg is an overarching term for heat treating metal. Please stop trying to educate me with your word play.

Because ALL attempts to educate you on anything are quixotic and pointless.