Dual clad error 1972 quarter - help with grading process 1 1

[jf_midwst]

I recently rediscovered this quarter in my junk "box".  I found it over 40 years ago as a teen (I think from a lawn job) and stashed it away not knowing what to do with it (no Internet!).  It appears to be missing the cladding on both sides.  I recently tried to get a coin store help me send it in for grading but ironically they wouldn't help unless a subject expert felt it was authentic (apparently too many disappointed customers).

My questions are
1.  Any indications it's not authentic?  I'm asking so I don't waste my time submitting it for grading.  It looks to me like the strike on the reverse side is clipped (diameter is about 1mm undersized).
2.  I'm getting ahead of myself but if it could be authentic then I want to send it into NGC myself for grading but want to verify I'm picking the right grading options.  Are these appropriate primary options? (Tier: Modern, Add-on: Mint Error) and should I order "NCS Modern Conservation" to stabilize coin surface?

Thanks for taking the time to provide feedback.  I'm excited to get to the bottom of this personal 40yr barn find and will keep everyone posted on the status.

[Fenntucky Mike]

Weight?

The absence of a rim or proto-rim and the smaller diameter makes me think it's not authentic. The blank and then planchet should have been the same diameter, or very close to it, as a normal one. It'd be a nice find if authentic.

[Sandon]

  Welcome to the NGC chat board.  

  The coin dealer gave you good advice. You should first show the coin to a recognized expert or specialist in mint errors before trying to submit it yourself, unless you don't care about likely wasting money, in this case $75 for this coin as a single submission, not including your own cost of shipping the coin to NGC ($19 grading fee + $18 error attribution fee, which NGC will retain even if the coin isn't an error + $10 processing fee + $28 return shipping). This assumes that you have already paid for an annual NGC membership with submission privileges. Just yesterday a disappointed member posted a topic about what usually happens when someone submits supposed "mint errors" to grading services without adequate knowledge:

    Although I can't say for sure that your 1974-D quarter was altered or damaged after leaving the mint and not a mint error, it does not resemble genuine struck clad copper cores or clad coins missing outer layers shown in a search on error-ref.com, a legitimate error coin website. See https://www.error-ref.com/?s=struck+clad+core.

   If you are unable to get to a major coin show where you could likely find dealers or collectors with the necessary expertise, I suggest that you contact Sullivan Numismatics of Land O Lakes, FL, www.sullivannumismatics.com, (931) 797-4888. On the website, go to the "Customer Service" tab and click "Contact Us" for instructions on sending questions about and photos of your coin.  You can also look for other dealers in this specialty on the NGC coin dealer locator at Find Coin Shops & Dealers | Coin Dealer Locator | NGC (ngccoin.com) or through the website of the Professional Numismatists Guild at www.pngdealers.org. 

[Coinbuf]

Welcome to the forum, from your photos this looks like it was altered after it left the mint, the machinery at the mint would struggle to properly strike just the copper core by itself.   My bet is that the coin was purposely or inadvertently exposed to an acid of some type which ate away the outer clad layers.   It is your choice but I think if you submit this to NGC it would be returned as environmental damage.

As to your question on which services yes you would need to pay for the modern tier and for the mint error service.   You would not need to add on the expense of NCS at the time of submission, however, if once received NGC felt that the NCS service was needed they would contact you to see if you wanted to use that service.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Coinbuf

[EagleRJO]

On 10/21/2023 at 1:28 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

The absence of a rim or proto-rim and the smaller diameter makes me think it's not authentic.

I would tend to agree with that when you think about the possibilities of what could have occured at the mint, and considering that it's also much thinner than a typical quarter.

It's usually one side missing an outer clad layer that peels off after rolling or blanking which ends up being thinner, but that would be the typical diameter with rims.  There seem to be a bunch of these just looking at the HA auction records.

Then there is the extremely rare case of dual outer cladding layers missing when it's struck on a blank punched from the end of a roll where both sheets for the outer cladding layer were shorter than the copper core sheet.  But this would also be the typical diameter with rims, and in addition would roll out to the proper thickness.  From a quick search I didn't find any certified examples of these.

It doesn't seem possible to have come from the mint like that with both outer cladding layers missing and it being smaller.  Im thinking it's most likely the result of exposure to acid, but that may not explain the missing rims from the ones I have seen, and it doesn't seem to have the same mushy appearance.

Maybe there is a colored unicorn shot as some type of thinner and slightly smaller foreign copper blank that got mixed in with the 25C blanks, or possibly the cladding peeling off both sides and edges after blanking, so the upsetting machine didn't add a rim.  But I can't think of any foreign coins that could be a match, and it's very unlikely that both cladding layers had a poor bond in the same spot.  What is the weight of your coin (to 0.01g) as well as the diameter and thickness (to 0.1mm if you have a vernier caliper)?  I think each outer cladding layer is 0.97g if someone could check me on that and get a thickness.

Also, the following links may be helpful for doing a little more digging, and I agree with Sandon to contact Sullivan Numismatics or post it on the CONECA website if it does start looking like it may be legit, which so far it doesn't.

https://www.pcgs.com/news/missing-clad-layer-mint-error-coins

https://www.error-ref.com/part-v-planchet-errors/

https://www.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?No=0&Ntk=SI_Titles-Desc&N=0&Ntt=missing+clad+layer+25c

https://sullivannumismatics.com/search.php?page=1&section=product&search_query=missing+clad+layers

Edited October 22, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Mike Meenderink]

This is an acid reduced coin. The coin was most likely placed in hydrochloric acid. This was done in many science classes. This type of thin planchet is not something that can be produced in any mint process. Acid reduction is on a molecular level. It removes metal evenly and leaves the details visible until the coin is literally gone. This is why it still looks like a coin  but just thinner. It's worth 25c.

[jf_midwst]

Thanks for taking the time to provide feedback.  Very informative.  I still made over $100 dollars (by not send it in)!   There's a coin show coming up later this year near me and I have a contact name from my dealer so I'll get one final input to put this to rest but not expecting good news.

It's interesting that it has no pitting, no signs of cladding and the edge reed on the copper is still intact.  I thought the acid would attack the copper before the cladding.

Edited October 22, 2023 by jf_midwst

[Greenstang]

I’ll bet you a dollar that the cause of this is that it has had an acid bath.
Usually with acid the rims are the first to go plus the letters are thinner  
and some of the detail on the eagle is missing. 
No harm though in showing to your contact, for educational purposes,
please let us know what he has to say.
 

[EagleRJO]

This one really is a little strange, and I'm not so sure it's acid damaged as it doesn't have that really mushy and granular appearance, like the damaged clad ones that have been posted here or as shown on Error-Ref,com.  And how likely is it for an acid to completely eat away the outer cladding and not significantly damage the core when copper is more reactive.

Did the dealer who looked at the coin indicate why they thought you should show it to an expert instead of identifying it as damaged?  And have you tried contacting Sullivan Numismatics about the coin?

[jf_midwst]

My dealer didn't have anyone in the store that could evaluate it other than to say it seemed really thin.  They pointed me towards someone that will be at a show in a few weeks that's supposed to be a subject expert. 

I find it odd that the edge reed is as well defined as a normal quarter if it got roached by acid and the surface looks as smooth and reflective a normal penny.  Very strange.  I owe you guys a weight - sorry I didn't provide it, should have it tomorrow. 

I'm learning a lot and hopefully this thread will help others in the future!

[J P M]

On 10/22/2023 at 5:11 PM, EagleRJO said:

This one really is a little strange, and I'm not so sure it's acid damaged as it doesn't have that really mushy and granular appearance, like the damaged clad ones that have been posted here or as shown on Error-Ref,com.  And how likely is it for an acid to completely eat away the outer cladding and not significantly damage the core when copper is more reactive.

Did the dealer who looked at the coin indicate why they thought you should show it to an expert instead of identifying it as damaged?  And have you tried contacting Sullivan Numismatics about the coin?

Acid Is my opinion . It may be grainy looking up close . This coin looks like a old( Coca Cola soak experiment)some of the old timers will know what I mean .Also the acid eats the coin uniformly and slow so most of the details remain but it gets smaller everywhere the edge had reeds so they will stay showing a bit but the whole rim is dissolving working toward the center.

[cobymordet]

How long would a quarter have to remain submerged in coke to eat away half of the coin thickness?

[J P M]

On 10/23/2023 at 8:46 AM, cobymordet said:

How long would a quarter have to remain submerged in coke to eat away half of the coin thickness?

Well that is kinda like asking how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop...............we may never know.

[EagleRJO]

On 10/23/2023 at 6:46 AM, J P M said:

Coca Cola soak experiment ... it gets smaller everywhere the edge had reeds so they will stay showing a bit but the whole rim is dissolving working toward the center.

Submerging a coin in a very weak acidic solution like Coca Cola to remove more reactive surface organics, which "cleans" an old dirty coin, and submerging one in an acid strong enough to completely remove hard outer nickel-copper cladding, like concentrated sulfuric acid we played around with in chemistry lab, are two completely different things.  The latter eats away the very reactive copper core more readily, so it ends up starting to look like an "oreo cookie" even before the cladding is dissolved.

Attached is an acid damaged coin from this forum not that long ago, and another one from an error-ref.com link.  By the time the outer cladding is dissolved the reeded edge would be completely gone, and surfaces would be a little mushy with a granular appearance.  I think the second example shows this more clearly, and the op's coin doesn't look anything like these or the ones we played around with in chemistry lab.  So no dice.

https://boards.ngccoin.com/topic/429415-quarter-damage-hard-to-explain-what-happened-to-this-guy-especially-on-the-edge/

The only thing I can think of if it's legit is a foreign copper coin blank got mixed in with some 25C blanks, or both outer cladding layers were not well bonded and peeled off after blanking.  But both of those seem extremely unlikely, which is why I think this one is strange, and the dealer just ended up punting the op's coin.

On 10/22/2023 at 8:51 PM, jf_midwst said:

They pointed me towards someone that will be at a show in a few weeks that's supposed to be a subject expert

I would also contact Sullivan Numismatics, as others have suggested too, who are well known experts on error coins and have a number of them with missing clad layers listed on their website.  I don't think it can hurt, and if they and the expert you were referred to agree on what you have that would be a pretty definitive answer.

https://sullivannumismatics.com/search.php?page=1&section=product&search_query=missing+clad+layers

Edited October 24, 2023 by EagleRJO

[J P M]

On 10/23/2023 at 5:11 PM, EagleRJO said:

Submerging a coin in a very weak acidic solution like Coca Cola to remove more reactive surface organics, which "cleans" an old dirty coin, and submerging one in an acid strong enough to completely remove hard outer nickel-copper cladding, like concentrated sulfuric acid we played around with in chemistry lab, are two completely different things.  The latter eats away the very reactive copper core more readily, so it ends up starting to look like an "oreo cookie" even before the cladding is dissolved.

Attached is an acid damaged coin from this forum not that long ago, and another one from an error-ref.com link.  By the time the outer cladding is dissolved the reeded edge would be completely gone, and surfaces would be a little mushy with a granular appearance.  I think the second example shows this more clearly, and the op's coin doesn't look anything like the ones we played around with in chemistry lab.  So no dice.

https://boards.ngccoin.com/topic/429415-quarter-damage-hard-to-explain-what-happened-to-this-guy-especially-on-the-edge/#comment-9826712

The only thing I can think of is a foreign copper coin blank got mixed in with some 25C blanks, or both outer cladding layers were not well bonded and peeled off after blanking.  But both of those seem extremely unlikely, which is why I think this one is strange, and the dealer just ended up punting the op's coin.

I would also contact Sullivan Numismatics, as others have suggested too, who are well known experts on error coins and have a number of them with missing clad layers listed on their website.  I don't think it can hurt, and if they and the expert you were referred to agree on what you have that would be a pretty definitive answer.

https://sullivannumismatics.com/search.php?page=1&section=product&search_query=missing+clad+layers

Nice research Eagle. Those coins are a mess. 

[jf_midwst]

So I just got a decent scale (my homebrew hops measurements will be crazy accurate!).  

Weight:  2.32grams.  That's light by over 3.35 grams.  I think each cladding is in the ballpark of 1 gram.

Diameter:  23.3.  About 1mm undersized.  Half has a very narrow rim and none on the other half but the edge reed is well defined/uniform all around.

Thickness:  1.0 mm (less than a dime)

I'm including a picture of the reed where the rim is missing (where "quarter dollar" is clipped).

This is way over my head so I won't even try to speculate how this got this way but I personally don't think it's environmental and every acid washed coin I see online looks like it's having a much worse day.

I wanted to share an interesting article regarding the Denver Mint in 1971 I found while searching around.  Article quote :  "In 1971, the Denver Mint produced a number of puzzling off-metal and wrong planchet errors".

https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/orphaned-washington-pair-is-a-real-mystery.html

Just noticed a botched the coin year in the title of this thread.  Sorry!  I'm not sure I can fix it.

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by jf_midwst

[ldhair]

It looks like most acid treated coins that I have seen.

[EagleRJO]

The weight at 2.32g would not be consistent with a 25C blank that had both the outer cladding layers peeled off, which would be about 3.73g  (5.67g - 0.97g - 0.97g) or roughly 3.9g at 30% underweight per the pcgs article.  So it doesn't look like that's a possibility.  Also, that size and weight doesn't seem to be close to any blanks for foreign copper, brass or bronze coins the mint may have been producing around 1974 if the following list is accurate.

https://libertycoinservice.com/wp-content/uploads/learning-center/collectors-checklist-foreign-coins-by-us-mint-type.pdf

It's looking like it is either acid damaged, even if that's not likely with the appearance of a struck coin and so much metal loss while the reeded edge is still visible, or an attempt at copying a very rare mint error of a quarter missing both outer clad layers.

Edited October 24, 2023 by EagleRJO

[jf_midwst]

Thanks for all the help.  I found a few threads that showed similar coins and were likely acid treated.  The measurements are nonsense.  I think Walter White was helping his students with this project.   I should have taken the 20 bucks a coin store offered me when I was a teen.  This one is going back in the junk box.