JKN58 Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 Hello again everyone! I was looking for some help to try and figure out exactly what I’m looking at on this quarter? A lot of missing obverse edge detail along with some incuse denting in field along top of Washingtons head. There is also an indented area in head somewhat above halfway between top of head and top of side burns. Thanks in advance for taking a look! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coinbuf Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 Most likely a filled die from grease that the mint workers use. That prevents the metal flow when the coin is struck resulting in weak and missing details. Sandon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Bill347 Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 I don’t believe this coin was struck through. On the contrary I think it was monkeyed with. Notice the ring around the circumference, the obvious damage to the “IN GOD”, and a possible dimple very near what the dead center would be. Therefore I think this coin was tooled somehow and therefore PMD post mint damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKN58 Posted October 17, 2023 Author Share Posted October 17, 2023 Thanks for the replies. The coin doesn’t show any hairlines or scratches around the edge and again, the indent in his head top-center. Any chance it was struck with extremely late stage die. The pictures may not show it well enough. In hand, the finish is even with same luster and tone on entire surface of coin, even into the edge ares. There are no rough or sharp edges on any of impressions on it, including where the tops of “T” and “Y” in Liberty are still there. It’s perfectly smooth. There are some irregular indentations at top of head and where bottom of letters of Liberty would be, as if it may have been struck with some irregular metal build up in the strike and again, all edges are smooth impressions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKK Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 This is PMD. This did not occur at the mint. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleRJO Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 (edited) On 10/16/2023 at 9:44 PM, JKK said: This is PMD. This did not occur at the mint. I'm not so sure. Based on the pictures and descriptions I would tend to agree with Coinbuf that it is likely struck thru some grease, perhaps combined with some circulation wear and dings. Attached is an example of a Washington 25C certified by NGC to have both struck thru (grease) and die break errors which looks very similar (except for the die), as well as a side-by-side comparison to that with the op's coin on the left. Edited January 8 by EagleRJO Mike Meenderink 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Meenderink Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 (edited) Eagle is correct this coin is a very late die stage coin that was struck through grease. The terrible strike as well as the filled D mint mark that is very weak tells me this coins obverse die was on its very last leg. It possibly was broken in a semi circle around the edge when it struck this coin causing the outer edges of the die to shift up with the coin press punching down leaving the weird missing Liberty, partial motto and missing 1. All of this could also increase the chances of grease getting into the striking chamber since the dies were worn and the mint workers would take them out, adjust and doctor them more often as they got worse. Edited October 17, 2023 by Mike Meenderink Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKK Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 I don't see how the supposed grease managed to describe this consistent radius, where all of its effect is in the roughly 2mm from the obverse edge. The damage even left faint lines bounding it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J P M Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 (edited) Without holding it in my hand it looks like PMD .The edge from the number one all the way around to the mint mark looks to be dished out including the remainder of the date with displaced metal pushed toward the bust and to the edge of the rim. It may have been a grease or week strike to start with but it has gone round and round on coin roller or something somewhere for a while. It has been around long enough to smooth out so no one will ever know for sure. That's my 25 cents worth Edited October 17, 2023 by J P M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKN58 Posted October 17, 2023 Author Share Posted October 17, 2023 Thanks everyone again! Maybe one I take to the next coin show so experts like yourselves can hold it in hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleRJO Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 On 10/17/2023 at 5:53 AM, JKK said: I don't see how the supposed grease managed to describe this consistent radius, where all of its effect is in the roughly 2mm from the obverse edge. The damage even left faint lines bounding it. I do see the strange indications of a faint circular groove close to the edge you are referring to, and agree the coin likely has some damage combined with wear which may have partially obscured that. Although I am still scratching my head as to what may have caused that as it couldn't just be from a coin wrapper. However, it still looks like there was also some grease on the die that obscured details in that area, as well as lettering outside of that area like at "In God We Trust". It would not be likely to have such significant wear to lower relief lettering while higher relief elements such as the hair around the ear do not show similar significant wear. It may not have been the first coin struck with grease on the die, and previous strikes through the grease may have moved that grease around and consumed some. I think this is an interesting one, and to me it looks like a combination of a struck-thru and some damage with wear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKK Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 On 10/17/2023 at 1:59 PM, EagleRJO said: It would not be likely to have such significant wear to lower relief lettering while higher relief elements such as the hair around the ear do not show similar significant wear. True. Which is why I think that wherever the coin was, the damage was not even. If it's wedged somewhere, the damage could be localized. I do not have a theory to offer about how that occurred, but I think there is far better evidence for it than the grease-filled die--which is very hard to speculate on with such a worn and damaged piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLB1980 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 On 10/16/2023 at 5:40 PM, JKN58 said: Hello again everyone! I was looking for some help to try and figure out exactly what I’m looking at on this quarter? A lot of missing obverse edge detail along with some incuse denting in field along top of Washingtons head. There is also an indented area in head somewhat above halfway between top of head and top of side burns. Thanks in advance for taking a look! I think these pictures are the early dye stage to your coin like I said there's always going to be somebody who wants to sound smart just cuz they don't have it in their hand hope this helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Neophyte Numismatist Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 On 1/7/2024 at 9:00 PM, RLB1980 said: I think these pictures are the early dye stage to your coin like I said there's always going to be somebody who wants to sound smart just cuz they don't have it in their hand hope this helps Welcome. You say... "...like I said there's always going to be somebody who wants to sound smart..." When did you say this before? This is your first post, right? And... now to say something smart... hmmm... I will start with a definition: Die = Is a solid mass object that strikes a planchet to leave an impression on a coin. Dye = Is a liquid that is typically used to change the color of an object. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKK Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 On 1/7/2024 at 6:32 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said: Welcome. You say... "...like I said there's always going to be somebody who wants to sound smart..." When did you say this before? This is your first post, right? There are sensible ways of avoiding one's past ignorances by creating a new account, and foolish ways. One of those is to refer back to what one said on their previous account. It boggles my mind that people think we won't pick up on that. Just Bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powermad5000 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 On 1/7/2024 at 8:00 PM, RLB1980 said: I think these pictures are the early dye stage to your coin If it were an early die stage, would it not have a superior crisp strike and not weakness in some of the lettering and a partially filled mintmark as there is on the provided example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleRJO Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 On 1/7/2024 at 9:00 PM, RLB1980 said: I think these pictures are the early dye stage to your coin Why would you think the coin you posted is an early die stage of the op's coin given it doesn't have the same loss of detail in the grease filled areas, and what die markers are you seeing which match up to indicate that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKN58 Posted January 12 Author Share Posted January 12 Hi all! Happy New Year! I’m glad to see this quarter is still generating some debate. In one of my earlier replies, I questioned if it could have been “a late stage die” and I meant a late stage capped die. I also wanted to post a couple more photos to show the discrepancy of wear from obverse to reverse of coin. Reverse does not show heavy wear. Thoughts again on capped die, struck thru grease or just pmd? As always, thanks to all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powermad5000 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 This is a separate coin from the one that started this thread. This coin should be in its own thread. It could be a late stage capped die. There are some examples in the link I am providing from error-ref.com. The cent in the middle has a similar effect to the above posted quarter. https://www.error-ref.com/struck_through_a_late_stage_die_cap/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKN58 Posted January 12 Author Share Posted January 12 This is the same coin I posted at the beginning of this thread! I thought a few more pics might help. Discrepancy in color is due to lighting. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powermad5000 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 My bad. People inserted too many pictures of different quarters into this thread. It is getting a little confusing. The other part of my response remains the same though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKN58 Posted January 12 Author Share Posted January 12 Really appreciate the opinion. Others have insisted on pmd but I’ve held this out for someone who knows more than myself, to actually take a hands on look at it. Hope to do that soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob’s Coins Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 I am new so don’t have a whole lot of experience. But if you are really insistent to know, just submit with the request for mint state error. You’ll probably find that it wasn’t worth it. But then you’ll know. Point blank, exclamation, graded, done, no more debate, experts have confirmed. My 2023 2 cents worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleRJO Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 On 1/12/2024 at 1:24 PM, JKN58 said: I questioned if it could have been “a late stage die” and I meant a late stage capped die. I also wanted to post a couple more photos to show the discrepancy of wear from obverse to reverse of coin. Reverse does not show heavy wear. Thoughts again on capped die, struck thru grease or just pmd? As always, thanks to all It does not look like a late stage capped die as there is only a partial loss of detail in particular areas. The additional pics doesn't change my opinion that it's a combination of wear and grease on the die due to the marked loss of detail in lower relief areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKN58 Posted January 12 Author Share Posted January 12 Thanks EagleRJO! It’s not like I’m trying to “beat a dead horse”. I originally posted this coin in October and just noticed there was still some conversation btw members of this forum as recently as last week, so I figured I’d post a few updated pics. so others might debate. I won’t waste my time getting it to a tpg as others have suggested. It is interesting tho’, and I’ll take it to the next coin show I attend and leave it to the experts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J P M Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 On 1/12/2024 at 4:55 PM, JKN58 said: I’ll take it to the next coin show I attend and leave it to the experts! LoL.. Some of the most knowledgeable numismatics in the country have already commented on your coin, whether you are aware or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKN58 Posted January 15 Author Share Posted January 15 True true….and I hope to meet some of them someday! One of them with this coin in hand would be the definitive answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 On 1/15/2024 at 10:31 AM, JKN58 said: True true….and I hope to meet some of them someday! One of them with this coin in hand would be the definitive answer You need THREE things, and don’t assume the third. You need true experience and expertise; you need the coin in the hand; and you need somebody with sufficient “give a da**” about errors and varieties. The third need disqualifies me. I don’t understand error hunters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleRJO Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 On 1/12/2024 at 4:55 PM, JKN58 said: Thanks EagleRJO! It’s not like I’m trying to “beat a dead horse”. I originally posted this coin in October and just noticed there was still some conversation btw members of this forum as recently as last week, so I figured I’d post a few updated pics. so others might debate. I won’t waste my time getting it to a tpg as others have suggested. It is interesting tho’, and I’ll take it to the next coin show I attend and leave it to the experts! More pics is usually good even if it doesn't change things, so that's fine. Showing it to a dealer familiar with errors, like Sullivan Numismatics, may help to narrow it down having the coin in-hand. But keep in mind there are not a lot of dealers very familiar with error coins, and it will be just another opinion. If it were my coin however I would just put it in a mylar flip labeled as a possible struck thru grease error and toss it in a miscellaneous errors and varieties box since even if a mint error it wouldn't be worth much as that is such a common error. J P M 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
