Dragon Mike 1 1

[Dragon Mike]

Would any one advise if I should have this coin graded

[Greenstang]

Welcome to the Chat Board.

We probably would be able to advise you if you would show a clear photo of both sides of the coin.  
Without one we wouldn’t have a clue.
Also the year and denomination should be in your heading.

[Dragon Mike]

On 10/14/2023 at 10:49 PM, Dragon Mike said:

Sorry to waist everyone's time to dumb to know how 

 

[J P M]

On 10/15/2023 at 4:34 PM, Dragon Mike said:

 

Not a waste of time , We just can't  see a coin posted.

Edited October 15, 2023 by J P M

[EagleRJO]

On 10/15/2023 at 4:34 PM, Dragon Mike said:

Sorry to waist everyone's time to dumb to know how

No problem as it's fairly easy to add images to a post once you know how.  When editing or replying to a post go to the area just below where you type, near the bottom, which has a paper clip symbol and says "Drag files here to attach, or choose files...".  Click on "choose files" and locate the image you want to attach.

Just make sure to include full pics of both sides, that the images are in focus and crop them directly around the coin like the attached so they show up as a decent size in the post which is much easier to see.  There are also file size limitations.

Edited October 16, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Dragon Mike]

Best pics of them are screen shots guess they won't upload those type files coins are locked in a bank vault at this time will buy a coin microscope and get them out to photo 

[Greenstang]

Please don’t supply screen shots, they are too pixilated to see the detail on a coin.

[Hoghead515]

On 10/15/2023 at 7:54 PM, Dragon Mike said:

Best pics of them are screen shots guess they won't upload those type files coins are locked in a bank vault at this time will buy a coin microscope and get them out to photo 

I had to download a picture compressor app before it would let me post them on my phone. Always said the files I was trying to add was to large. 

[Hoghead515]

Now I cant post with my phone at all for some reason. When I click a picture to share, soon as I hit the add files button it takes me back to the home screen. I used to post them all the time and they updated the site and its done that ever since. 

[Dragon Mike]

The minute I win at auction I am happy the day it comes in the mailbox I am happy out here in Hawaii there is No one to asks advise then I travel ask advise have not had much sucess join ngc put into sets still can't get value of there graded coins kilo wedge tail eagle with all others coins for that year all denomination of that coin have trust issues just to send in to may not get back same 300 lbs of ungraded old coins feel like I should just bag up throw overboard with other end tied to my leg

Edited October 16, 2023 by Dragon Mike

[EagleRJO]

On 10/15/2023 at 8:56 PM, Dragon Mike said:

... join ngc put into sets still can't get value of there graded coins ...

There are NGC Price Guides which seems pretty reasonable on average, although sometimes just a little low for some US coins I collect.  Plus guide prices are just that, a guide, and for slabbed coins.

https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/united-states/

https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/

Also most NGC coin certification pages should have the guide price noted on the lower right if available.

On 10/15/2023 at 8:56 PM, Dragon Mike said:

... 300 lbs of ungraded old coins ... feel like I should just bag up throw overboard with other end tied to my leg

Hmmm, sounds like someone is having a frustrating day, with an attempt at a little morbid humor.  Although technically an option, it's not one generally recommended.  

Coin collecting can get overwhelming if you try to go too far too fast.  Maybe take it a little slower, starting with some basics like the attached two references (which I think any collector should have), and slowly going through the info found at the following links over time:

https://boards.ngccoin.com/topic/428817-resources-for-new-collectors/

https://boards.ngccoin.com/topic/430263-basic-resources-glossary/

Edited October 16, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Dragon Mike]

Read it in 2007 when I started collecting searched for stone mnt  as I had found on ground as kid purchase one after that I bought hundreds of coins not caring if good investment or bad I just liked old coins shortly after I want to learn the first coin dealer to me if I trusted the red book I was stupid and would go broke I use the pcgs app regularly and member of ngc 2 years I watch auctions alot no coin sells for its guide value I own a number 1 ranked 10 oz wedge tail eagle sets on ngc site but no value  of set or each I asked a local coin man here to look at this and several others coins as nice as the 20 cent piece pictured he told me I had trash so should this be trashed how if this is a trash coin I don't understand 

[Mike Meenderink]

Something seems off with this coin. @Sandon

[EagleRJO]

On 10/15/2023 at 11:42 PM, Dragon Mike said:

... first coin dealer told me if I trusted the red book I was stupid and would go broke I use the pcgs app regularly ... I watch auctions alot no coin sells for its guide value

I use the Red Book mostly for general information about coins such as descriptions with pictures, grading details specific to a particular coin series, and mintages.  I only use the Red Book values in relative terms to see what year, mark and grade coins may be worth compared to other years, marks and grades.

I very often bid on and see coins go for somewhere between the NGC and PCG$ guide prices.  But I am often very patient and only bid around or usually somewhat below the NGC guide prices which are lower in general, and which has worked to buy quite a few coins on auction sites like Great Collections.

What auction sites are you referring to where coins never go for around the guide prices, which are usually based on actual auction results?  And if you mean you would go broke using the PCG$ guide prices to buy coins I would generally agree as they seem to be very high overall (and thus the abbreviation I use ).

On 10/15/2023 at 11:42 PM, Dragon Mike said:

I asked a local coin man here to look at this and several others coins as nice as the 20 cent piece pictured he told me I had trash

From your updated post with pictures added I agree that the coin seems a little off with some details like Liberty's head and lower part of the dress around the legs as well as the shield not looking right.  What really jumps out is the different font of the lettering for "Liberty" on the shield.  That looks like someone tried to reproduce the lettering.  So it likely is a counterfeit.

Regardless, it looks like the coin has XF details, has some damage like at the date, and more importantly has been harshly cleaned with an unnatural appearance and scratches all over the fields on both sides of the coin.

I am just looking at pictures of a coin, but it seems like the dealer correctly identified it as trash.  See the attached example of a genuine XF grade 1875 20C coin for an in-hand comparison.

Edited October 16, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Dragon Mike]

I don't know if you would see all the scratches under the toning and is this coin a natural tone or a  manufactured toned coin to hide scratches

[Dragon Mike]

Pics of 1878 twenty cents looks beat to to me also

[Dragon Mike]

On 10/15/2023 at 10:16 PM, Dragon Mike said:

Pics of 1878 twenty cents looks beat to to me also

Another one of my coins looks worse than 1875 to me when buying on line how to be sure what can I trust

[J P M]

On 10/16/2023 at 1:07 AM, Mike Meenderink said:

Something seems off with this coin. @Sandon

The coin looks like it has been polished a lot.

[Sandon]

   Welcome to the NGC chat board. 

   Respectfully, please try to use correct punctuation in your posts, and don't use abbreviations or jargon unless they are terms in everyday usage. I have collected and studied U.S. coins for over fifty years but am having difficulty understanding you.  (What is a "10 oz wedge tail eagle set"?)

   The 1875 twenty cent piece you posted appears to have been harshly "cleaned" with an abrasive substance or, even worse, "whizzed" with a rotating wire brush. The original surface has been destroyed by thousands of minute hairline scratches, taking much of its value to knowledgeable collectors. I'm also concerned that the coin isn't genuine, as the word "LIBERTY" on the shield looks too deeply incised, and the border beads at the edge don't look right. Over the past twenty years or so, large numbers of counterfeits of many different coins of varying quality have been manufactured in Mainland China.  The counterfeiter may have "cleaned" the coin to cover up some of the evidence that it was fake.

   The 1878, a rare proof only issue, checks out on NGC Certificate Verification (Verify NGC Certification | NGC (ngccoin.com)) and is presumably genuine.  The PF 61 grade is a relatively low proof grade usually awarded to proofs that were wiped or polished, as was frequently done by collectors of a century ago, and such coins are usually also noticeably hairlined or dull. The grading services make some allowances for this widespread practice on proof coins of this era and will give these low-end grades to such coins instead of "details" grading them as "cleaned". This is one of the things you should have learned before you spent, I assume, several thousand dollars on this coin. You should also have bought the coin only after in-person inspection or, if not possible, after viewing high resolution photos as are usually available on the better numismatic auction houses' sites, such as those of Heritage (ha.com), Goldberg (goldbergcoins.com), Great Collections (greatcollections.com), and Stacks Bowers (stacksbowers.com). 

   You needed to "buy the book before the coin", an old adage that remains pertinent today, although some of your education can now occur online. The "Redbook" is an essential resource for basic information but isn't an up-to-date or comprehensive price guide, nor does it contain sufficient information on grading or the nuances of various types and issues of coins.  Check out the links provided by @EagleRJO. 

   You also needed to gain hands-on experience with coins by attending such venues as coin shows and coin club meetings, which I understand are held in Hawaii. You can examine certified coins in various grades and speak with knowledgeable dealers and collectors at such venues.  

   Your initial question was whether you should have a coin graded.  All of your coins should be graded--BY YOU, once you have learned the necessary skills.  The only coins that you should consider submitted to third-party grading services are those that you have determined are worth at least several hundred dollars each and are likely to be returned with "straight" numerical grades.  If you insist on buying expensive coins before acquiring sufficient knowledge, you should only buy them already certified by reputable grading services such as NGC, PCGS, or ANACS and preferably from reputable dealers such as the previously named auction houses and those who are members of the Professional Numismatists Guild (pngdealers.org).  

    

[Dragon Mike]

No need to worry about the wedge tail eagles they are probly fake as well 

[Dragon Mike]

If  the coin is counterfeit I need to grade to tell if it is then I would know not  offer to resell and if I pass counterfeits I am breaking the law why is it legal for auction sites to sell to me  counterfeits with no recourse of action seems like every coin I have shown not real  was looking to pass some history to my grandson wishing I would of not found first stone mountain pass the counterfeits to the how many auctions has this coin been sold at how many knew it was counterfeit not fair

[EagleRJO]

On 10/16/2023 at 3:14 AM, Dragon Mike said:

I don't know if you would see all the scratches under the toning and is this coin a natural tone or a  manufactured toned coin to hide scratches

The toning on the example XF grade 1875 20C coin I posted above appears natural to me, with good color progression.  But the toning does not completely cover the fields, with no signs of a harsh cleaning where there is no toning, unlike your coin which has clear signs of a harsh cleaning throughout on both sides.

It's likely your coin would get a details grade due to the apparent harsh cleaning, even if it was authenticated which I think is a bigger issue.  You really need to decide if it's worth it to submit for authentication and grading considering what you spent on the coin and the likelihood of it being details graded or body bagged as a counterfeit given the discrepancies noted, as well as considering it is just photos being reviewed while you have the coin in-hand. 

On 10/16/2023 at 4:22 AM, Dragon Mike said:

Another one of my coins looks worse than 1875 to me when buying on line how to be sure what can I trust

The pictures you posted of a slabbed proof 1878 20C coin are very blurry and there appears to be some staining or discoloration due to the age of the coin, but even so I do not see indications of a harsh cleaning.  As Sandon noted the TPGs often allow a little leeway on very old coins that have been wiped or very lightly cleaned due to how common that practice was long ago.

I think a reasonable approach for you, considering your apparent knowledge and the potential value of these coins, would be to stick with coins that have already been graded and slabbed by one of the top TPGs while you learn more about these coins and grading them.  For raw coins stay away from sites like ebay or etsy, or better yet avoid raw coins completely for now, and see Sandon's post for reputable auction houses.

On 10/16/2023 at 5:32 PM, Dragon Mike said:

... why is it legal for auction sites to sell to me counterfeits with no recourse of action

It is not legal to sell counterfeit coins in the US, and if the coin was recently purchased you may be able to request a refund if the listing information was not accurate.  The first step would be to contact the seller or auction house.

If it was recently purchased on ebay you may still be able to get a refund if the seller is unresponsive as they have a site wide refund policy.  But they may request you submit it to a TPG to verify it's harshly cleaned or not authentic.

[Sandon]

    Again, please use punctuation, and don't write in a "stream of consciousness". This makes it difficult for us to help you.

    You seem determined to multiply your mistakes and waste still more money. You don't send coins that you suspect of being counterfeit to grading services, only pieces that you believe are both genuine and of sufficient value to make third-party grading worthwhile. (The grading services nevertheless detect a fair number of counterfeits.) Sending the 1875 20 cent piece to NGC would involve a grading fee of at least $23 ($40 if you value it over $300), a processing fee of $10 per order, a $28 return shipping fee (1 to 10 coins) and your own cost to ship it to NGC. See NGC Services and Fees | NGC (ngccoin.com).  You could ask experienced dealers and collectors to give you an opinion on it at no cost. You can also learn how to identify some counterfeits yourself. See NGC Counterfeit Detection | Identify Counterfeit Coins | NGC (ngccoin.com). If you own or wish to purchase a properly calibrated digital scale that measures to at least hundredths of a gram, you can check the weight of your coins against the legal weights stated in the "Redbook". Coins that differ substantially from these weights are likely fakes, although a correct weight does not guarantee authenticity. 

    While it would be wrong--and obviously illegal--to sell a coin you know to be counterfeit as a genuine piece, I have never heard of anyone being prosecuted in the U.S. for simply possessing suspected counterfeit coins without intent to spend them or to sell them as genuine. (Some collectors openly collect "contemporary" counterfeits--those that were made when the original coins circulated.)  If you determine that the coin is counterfeit, you presumably could turn it in to the U.S. Secret Service or other appropriate authorities.

   From whom did you buy these coins? Most reputable dealers guarantee the authenticity of the uncertified coins they sell, though not usually the grade. Don't do business with any dealer who doesn't make such a guarantee. Certified coins are subject to the grading service's guarantee, which you can read on their respective websites. 

   I assume that by "stone mountain" you mean a 1925 Stone Mountain commemorative half dollar, a relatively common classic commemorative with a distribution of over a million pieces that isn't worth much unless it is in a Gem Uncirculated (MS 65 or higher) grade.  Without a clear question and clear photos of the coin in question, we really can't help you.

[Dragon Mike]

Not e bay purchase auction house sells 2700 coins a week end got coins pictured with there listing and description of said coins even with that no proof I bought that coin at that auction still get graded to determine if ripped off by counterfeit  all I know is I don't clean touch with  my hands don't remove them from the package they were sent in just put them in air tight case for raw coins keep in vault so spend more find out counterfeit what is  the recourse   from there starting to sound safer to stuff a mattress   with dollars at a homeless camp would be safer

[EagleRJO]

What auction house?

Also have you accurately weighed the coin and measured the diameter and thickness which might provide some other clues?

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

@Dragon Mike Welcome to the forum, and to the hobby.  The advice you have above is good.  I am going to add a few from a neophyte prospective:

1. Start Small - diving into raw 20c pieces is going to be challenging until you really "build your eye" looking at lots of coins in the grades you want to collect.  The coins are simply too expensive for any rational person to make mistakes without hard feelings (unless money is just no object to you).  Buy the book, buy a graded example and train your eye for the quality in the grade you seek.  But, you may want to start with another series.  I read your mentioning of collecting Wedged Tail (and I assume you mean the bullion pieces).  Collecting these is certainly fine - because I believe that you should collect whatever you love to collect.  The only "watch out" is that you will almost always see these in "perfect" MS69 condition.  So it will be harder to train your eye to see what AU55 looks like (if that's the intended grade for your more expensive pursuit).
2. Find a GOOD Dealer - This will be controversial, as some just don't trust any dealer, and finding a good one can be tough.  Starting local is always best.  A good dealer will teach you.  BUT - you have to study too, and ask good questions.  A good dealer will respect your commitment to the hobby, and will value you as a customer.  A good dealer will show you several of the same coin and allow you to see different quality (even at the same grade).  A good dealer does more than "sell coins".  Shows are a great place to meet a lot of dealers and get a lot of inventory in your hands (there is no substitute for coins in your hands - and I cannot over emphasize this).  At the local coin shop (LCS), your dealers may have more time to chat at teach, but you must also be sensitive to their time. Find your balance.
3. Find a club - Having a group of like minded people in a room is just plain fun.  And, unlike dealers who may be stingy with their time...club members won't stop chatting - they love it as much as you do.  It's a lot of fun, and you will learn a lot, too.  If you find a coin you love, see if there is a club for that specialty... do they have a publication, website of journals, access to specialty books (lots to explore)?
4. Have a goal - I am not saying you can't collect coins without a goal; buying random pretty things as you go.  You can.  But, there is a lot of history and nuance that will likely be missed.  Admittedly, I am an advocate for specialization.  However, one can still be a generalist and gain a depth of knowledge over a wide variety of subjects (just depends on how much you study)
5. Set a budget - I call this out because there are BIG swings between prices of coins depending on the grade.  Little mistakes add up to large dollars.  Having a budget is necessary in the beginning to help to curb those mistakes.  But, always keep a budget - even as your skills improve.  If you are going to go after a series, calculate the price of the whole series before you even start.  Then add 20% - because you will have to stretch to buy your tougher ones, or prices might go up as you are building.  Just know that your budget on it's face is likely under-clubbing.  This exercise will help you to determine a grade, or even select a series (There is a reason I do not collect $4 proofs).  In the end, I think you will be happier and not feel like you are about to tie the coins to your ankles and drown yourself.  

You can do this, but to get the most out of this hobby you need to start with #1... Otherwise, you have coins strapped to your ankles, and you are "man overboard" (nobody wants that).

Neo.

Edited October 17, 2023 by The Neophyte Numismatist

[Dragon Mike]

On 10/17/2023 at 12:03 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

@Dragon Mike Welcome to the forum, and to the hobby.  The advice you have above is good.  I am going to add a few from a neophyte prospective:

1. Start Small - diving into raw 20c pieces is going to be challenging until you really "build your eye" looking at lots of coins in the grades you want to collect.  The coins are simply too expensive for any rational person to make mistakes without hard feelings (unless money is just no object to you).  Buy the book, buy a graded example and train your eye for the quality in the grade you seek.  But, you may want to start with another series.  I read your mentioning of collecting Wedged Tail (and I assume you mean the bullion pieces).  Collecting these is certainly fine - because I believe that you should collect whatever you love to collect.  The only "watch out" is that you will almost always see these in "perfect" MS69 condition.  So it will be harder to train your eye to see what AU55 looks like (if that's the intended grade for your more expensive pursuit).
2. Find a GOOD Dealer - This will be controversial, as some just don't trust any dealer, and finding a good one can be tough.  Starting local is always best.  A good dealer will teach you.  BUT - you have to study too, and ask good questions.  A good dealer will respect your commitment to the hobby, and will value you as a customer.  A good dealer will show you several of the same coin and allow you to see different quality (even at the same grade).  A good dealer does more than "sell coins".  Shows are a great place to meet a lot of dealers and get a lot of inventory in your hands (there is no substitute for coins in your hands - and I cannot over emphasize this).  At the local coin shop (LCS), your dealers may have more time to chat at teach, but you must also be sensitive to their time. Find your balance.
3. Find a club - Having a group of like minded people in a room is just plain fun.  And, unlike dealers who may be stingy with their time...club members won't stop chatting - they love it as much as you do.  It's a lot of fun, and you will learn a lot, too.  If you find a coin you love, see if there is a club for that specialty... do they have a publication, website of journals, access to specialty books (lots to explore)?
4. Have a goal - I am not saying you can't collect coins without a goal; buying random pretty things as you go.  You can.  But, there is a lot of history and nuance that will likely be missed.  Admittedly, I am an advocate for specialization.  However, one can still be a generalist and gain a depth of knowledge over a wide variety of subjects (just depends on how much you study)
5. Set a budget - I call this out because there are BIG swings between prices of coins depending on the grade.  Little mistakes add up to large dollars.  Having a budget is necessary in the beginning to help to curb those mistakes.  But, always keep a budget - even as your skills improve.  If you are going to go after a series, calculate the price of the whole series before you even start.  Then add 20% - because you will have to stretch to buy your tougher ones, or prices might go up as you are building.  Just know that your budget on it's face is likely under-clubbing.  This exercise will help you to determine a grade, or even select a series (There is a reason I do not collect $4 proofs).  In the end, I think you will be happier and not feel like you are about to tie the coins to your ankles and drown yourself.  

You can do this, but to get the most out of this hobby you need to start with #1... Otherwise, you have coins strapped to your ankles, and you are "man overboard" (nobody wants that).

Neo.

Thanks for the sound advise problem is I  alreadt own all the twenty cent pieces except the 1877 proof tried to buy a ngc certified one at same auction as alot of other coins I have recently bought from went for more than o could afford not rich by any means .I have two of the 1878 proofs the 61 pictured above and a 63 I did not start this to have a spot free coin series I got hooked the night I remembered the  1925 stone mountain I found in the dirt when I was a child just learned how to search with a computer looked found and purchased it seeing all the others grew my interest purchased several morgans thought I was doing right several raw  2 - 5 ngc coins bought way under red book value thought I hit a jack pot took to a dealer on east cost to learn from he  ended up saying the coin was fake or been reslabbed with fake coin e bay buy at the time and I could of been the one doing so he really offended me  then a customer followed me outside made a offer for the 1925 stone mountain I had bought first his offer was 30 dollars more than I paid that was the last coin I ever sold did not intend to buy sell by then  found out about alot of coins I never knew existed series set all different mints reason why there was such a difference between 1893 morgan and 1893s morgan I wanted to find one set the twenty cent seemed the least amount of coins to build my 2020 1,2,5,10 oz wedge tails are reverse proofs mercanti signed 70 fdoi the kilo wedge tail  eagle is reverse proof  70  fdoi mercanti signed also 188. In that grade paid more for that then all my twenty cent pieces to afraid to show it probably be told it is also fake haha your advise is appreciated and listened to but I may be past that point just don't see how these fakes are being auctioned and no recourse to get fakes gone if I buy 1 ooooh well ten twenty fifty I dont want fake but I can not stand toe to toe with the great collection auctions clients ther pockets are deep I know my place yes not rich and a bad education does not mean people like me should  be taken advantage of someone knows they are selling fakes if they sell enough times they know someone will put them in a case and hide for future but they sell customer checks sends back they resell making a commission every time until someone puts them in a bank vault I have paid to keep trash counterfeits in a vault grading is my only way to have piece of mind you also missed the part when I said no can't do that I would loose a good boat the boat is a real boat.Put one period for the punctuations man.  Thanks Mike

 

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Dragon Mike
Add pics

[Dragon Mike]

Some are assuming I paid several thousand for the twenty cent pieces that's not the case. if in a ngc holder ms 65 what ever the coin is if pgcs guide is an amount for grade 65 I will only bid up to au 50 guide price the only way I am at any loss would be if it is a fake that is my question now got advise weighing it measure diameter have not don't did not think it was fake again I don't touch or hold coins in my hands I am a full time mechanic all my pics are off of auction sites or ngc own pictures for there  graded coins they take when encapsulating them 

[J P M]

Mike, If the coins you have are in NGC or PCGS holders I would think they are ok. Most large auction houses have there own coin experts to cover there butts. Now if you are picking up raw coins at estate auctions then that is a different story. You would have to be able do your own assessment's of the coins .  

[Sandon]

       It would have been helpful if you had identified the "wedge tailed eagle set" as recent Australian issues, as most of us don't collect them. These modern noncirculating legal tender pieces and their holders match their photos on NGC certificate verification and are almost certainly genuine.  Verify NGC Certification | NGC (ngccoin.com) Verify NGC Certification | NGC (ngccoin.com).  There have been cases of grading service holders being counterfeited or tampered with and containing counterfeit or overgraded coins, but this is not the norm. It would also be helpful if you examine known genuine examples of coins that you want to acquire or at least photos of them, such as those on PCGS Coinfacts, the NGC World Coin Price Guide, or for recent issues, the website of the issuing mint, before you bid on them online.  It is impossible to distinguish between genuine and counterfeit coins when you don't know what the genuine ones are supposed to look like.

On 10/18/2023 at 1:38 AM, Dragon Mike said:

I don't want fake but I cannot stand toe to toe with the great collection auctions clients. Their pockets are deep

   This is true for most of us. There are many coins I'd like to own but can't afford.  Another well-known adage among collectors is, "there is no Santa Claus in numismatics."  Equivalent sayings include "you get what you pay for", "if something is too good to be true, it probably isn't", and "you can go broke buying a bargain".  You can get good deals on genuine, correctly graded coins if you look around, including at coin shows, and have the knowledge needed to evaluate the coins, but you're unlikely to pay less than 75% or so of retail list prices. You probably paid a low price for the 1875 twenty cent piece because knowledgeable bidders could see that it was heavily "cleaned" and of questionable authenticity. The 1878 graded PF 61 has current list prices ranging from $3,200 to $3,850 (CPG, NGC and PCGS price guides), and it's unlikely you could obtain a genuine one nowadays for less than $2,500 or so.  If you did, it was a while ago or because the coin is unattractive even at the "61" grade.   You may want to focus on attractive pieces that are within your budget and only buy coins certified by NGC, PCGS or ANACS.