Die Polishing Lines, Like, Dislike, Indifferent? 1 1

[Fenntucky Mike]

I was doing some browsing today and came across this example, not mine, with heavy die polishing lines across all fields, it's one of the more extreme examples of die polishing lines on a piece that I can remember seeing. My question to you is do you view die polishing lines, in general, as positive or negative when considering purchasing/or viewing a piece? Fell free to post any other examples. 

[zadok]

...i view a properly polished die with remaining die polish lines as neutral n neither add nor detract in my decision to purchase the coin...however one polished with sandpaper as the one evidenced above would wander into the negative for me....

[zadok]

On 10/13/2023 at 4:53 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

I was doing some browsing today and came across this example, not mine, with heavy die polishing lines across all fields, it's one of the more extreme examples of die polishing lines on a piece that I can remember seeing. My question to you is do you view die polishing lines, in general, as positive or negative when considering purchasing/or viewing a piece? Fell free to post any other examples. 

...interesting question....

[Coinbuf]

For me it's all a matter of degree, some die polish is ok and I do not automatically consider it as a negative.   As written above the die polish shown in the photos of your example is rather extreme and that does tip into the negative eye appeal.   The large and clear fields of the obv really highlight the polish lines, and I wonder if those are as noticable in hand vs how much they show in the photos.   I have noticed that Mercury dimes in general seem to suffer from die polish lines often, most of the time I can look past it as it is "as struck".   This coin from my collection sure has a lot of polish lines

 

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/13/2023 at 4:53 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

 

With the suggestion of "sandpaper," a question is raised:  the coin (granted, not yours) appears to have been encapsulated. If so, what grade was it assigned and what notes, if any, were included in the label?

 

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 10/13/2023 at 5:41 PM, zadok said:

...i view a properly polished die with remaining die polish lines as neutral n neither add nor detract in my decision to purchase the coin...however one polished with sandpaper as the one evidenced above would wander into the negative for me....

The piece I posted is so extreme that the polish lines give the peice an unintended uniform look. I kind of like it, especially as a curiosity or show and tell piece. As a rule of thumb I agree with your and @Coinbuf's statements on die polish lines.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. 

On 10/13/2023 at 5:51 PM, Coinbuf said:

For me it's all a matter of degree, some die polish is ok and I do not automatically consider it as a negative.   As written above the die polish shown in the photos of your example is rather extreme and that does tip into the negative eye appeal.   The large and clear fields of the obv really highlight the polish lines, and I wonder if those are as noticable in hand vs how much they show in the photos.   I have noticed that Mercury dimes in general seem to suffer from die polish lines often, most of the time I can look past it as it is "as struck".   This coin from my collection sure has a lot of polish lines

Interesting, I'd also be curious as to how the Zim coin looks in hand, it may look similar your Merc. I may get a chance to find out, 'll update this thread if I do. 

On 10/13/2023 at 6:15 PM, Henri Charriere said:

With the suggestion of "sandpaper," a question is raised:  the coin (granted, not yours) appears to have been encapsulated. If so, what grade was it assigned and what notes, if any, were included in the label?

 

I will answer your question in the morning, I want to give a few others an opportunity to comment if they choose.

The comments so far have lead me to two more questions. 

First, how well do die polish lines hide wear, cleaning, marks, and/or flaws such as the canyon on the mid-upper right field at about 3 o'clock near the "W" on the obv?

Second, do die polish lines influence grade?

Edited October 13, 2023 by Fenntucky Mike

[Coinbuf]

On 10/13/2023 at 4:23 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

The comments so far have lead me to two more questions. 

First, how well do die polish lines hide wear, cleaning, marks, and/or flaws such as the canyon on the mid-upper right field at about 3 o'clock near the "W" on the obv?

Second, do die polish lines influence grade?

I think die polish is difficult for beginners to differentiate from cleaning hairlines, but most experienced collectors, dealers, and graders are not going to "miss" contact marks or damage from an improper cleaning because of die polish lines.   At least not with an in hand inspection, judging from a photo it would be much easier to "confuse" hairlines with die polish.

As to can it influence the grade, I want to say no but I suspect that in some cases it could and does.   One thing to keep in mind is that if a die is polished many times, or a few really aggressive polishes, some of the minor details can be lost.   So in those cases, at least in theory, the graders might deduct some for the detail loss.   Going back to the Mercury dime, it is easy to tell an over polished die as the bridge of the nose will disappear as it sinks into the field.   And if the die polish is an intrusion on the look or eye appeal of the coin that too could be a reason for a grader to deduct.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Coinbuf

[Just Bob]

To me, they are as distracting as scratches. I feel the same about planchet adjustment marks on early gold and silver coins. That doesn't mean that I would never add one to my collection. It does mean that, given a choice between coins with and without die polish lines (or planchet adjustment marks), I would choose the coin without.

Oddly, there are other things that are distracting to many collectors that don't really bother me, like fingerprints. 

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 10/13/2023 at 6:15 PM, Henri Charriere said:

With the suggestion of "sandpaper," a question is raised:  the coin (granted, not yours) appears to have been encapsulated. If so, what grade was it assigned and what notes, if any, were included in the label?

SP68 with no mention of die polishing lines on the label or in the auction listing.

On 10/14/2023 at 12:45 AM, Just Bob said:

Oddly, there are other things that are distracting to many collectors that don't really bother me, like fingerprints. 

Fingerprints can be a deal breaker for me. If given the choice between a coin like the one in the OP and another coin with a big fat thumb print on it I'm going with the die polish lines. Obviously every situation is unique and I have plenty of pieces with fingerprints on them, but in general they are more distracting to me. 

[J P M]

Well, collecting nickels it is almost a normal expectation to find polished dies. Some are quite nice. Finger prints not so nice and never either of the two on proofs.

[Lem E]

Doesn’t really bother me too much. I have one particular example that has some pretty heavy polish lines. Can’t really stand the fingerprints. I have too many of those.

 

[Coinbuf]

Fingerprints and spots are a death blow for me, made some mistake buys in the past with regards to those.  Today I avoid fingerprints and spots with a passion, but I will say the type of coin one collects can have a big influence on how any collector approaches these things.   As a copper guy, and mostly buying uncirculated copper, fingerprints just turn black and ugly.   Whereas toned silver and dark circulated coins can hide and blend fingerprints and spots quite well at times.

[GoldFinger1969]

On some of the Saint-Gaudens DEs, die polishing lines confirm authenticity and the grade.

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/14/2023 at 6:36 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

SP68 with no mention of die polishing lines on the label or in the auction...

Good news!

If the grade was SP68, any die polishing lines exist only within the windmills of your mind.

[Mike Meenderink]

When buying raw coins I usually stay away from coins that present any type of hairlines. Those hairline scratches may either be from die polishing, wipes, whizz or sometimes one or more. I stay away from the obvious unmagnified hairlines you can see with the naked eye. IMO unless its a rare valuable scarce coin others will see it impaired.

[Sandon]

   It is important to distinguish between die polish and hairlining.  Die polish lines or marks are, indeed, hairline scratches but on the dies that strike coins rather than the coins themselves.  Accordingly, they are raised lines on a coin rather than minute scratches that penetrate the coin's surface.  Whereas hairlines on a coin are indicative of handling and may reduce a coin's grade, or if significant, lead to a diagnosis of abrasive "cleaning", die polish is usually indicative of a coin having been struck from new or refinished dies. Such coins are not impaired.  Die polish is sometimes useful as a tool in authentication or variety attribution to identify a coin as having come from a particular die pair. I have never been troubled by die polish. However, newer collectors should be careful not to confuse a hairlined, likely "cleaned" coin with one exhibiting die polish.

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/14/2023 at 11:19 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

On some of the Saint-Gaudens DEs, die polishing lines confirm authenticity and the grade.

[Same is true for the higher Mint State grades.]

[robec1347]

On 10/15/2023 at 5:34 PM, Sandon said:

 Die polish is sometimes useful as a tool in authentication or variety attribution to identify a coin as having come from a particular die pair. I have never been troubled by die polish. However, newer collectors should be careful not to confuse a hairlined, likely "cleaned" coin with one exhibiting die polish.

I do like die polish. I was going through part of a roll of 1959 Lincoln’s I shared with another collector. Out of the 20 coin I had I found matching polish lines from 4 different dies. These are 3 of 4 coins from one of the dies. 
 

From another die pair 

Edited October 17, 2023 by robec1347

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/15/2023 at 8:34 PM, Sandon said:

   It is important to distinguish between die polish and hairlining.  Die polish lines or marks are, indeed, hairline scratches but on the dies that strike coins rather than the coins themselves.  Accordingly, they are raised lines on a coin rather than minute scratches that penetrate the coin's surface.  Whereas hairlines on a coin are indicative of handling and may reduce a coin's grade, or if significant, lead to a diagnosis of abrasive "cleaning", die polish is usually indicative of a coin having been struck from new or refinished dies. Such coins are not impaired.  Die polish is sometimes useful as a tool in authentication or variety attribution to identify a coin as having come from a particular die pair. I have never been troubled by die polish. However, newer collectors should be careful not to confuse a hairlined, likely "cleaned" coin with one exhibiting die polish.

In his Saints book, RWB has some great pics which show die lines vs. die cracks vs. die failure....makes it very easy to see the differences.

Your post reminded me about that because as you said.....die polish lines are raised above the surface.....whereas hairlines are submerged/into the coin itself.  You have to remember that any defect or imperfection in the die will be REVERSED when it strikes the coin.

Have to look VERY CLOSELY to tell the difference, as Sandon said.

 

[Mr_Spud]

I like die polishing lines when they are part of a cool variety. Like the 1953s Roosevelt Dime “acorn” variety that is in the new Cherrypickers Book where the die polishing and clash marks are what caused the variety. It’s called acorn variety because the clashing made one of the olives look like an acorn. The dies were so heavily polished they obliterated part of the oak branch and leaves. I’ve found 3 of them so far unattributed on eBay since I started looking for them a few weeks ago. 
But if not part of a cool variety, if I was choosing between 2 of the same coins in the same grade with similar looks other than the die polishing lines, I’d choose the one without them. But if the one with die polishing looked nicer than the one without, I’d pick the one with die polishing. So only a very slight preference for non-die polishing.

 

 

 

[Mr_Spud]

Here’s a picture of one of the “acorn” varieties I cherry picked off of eBay. It’s covered in die polish lines. This was the auction picture. Also included is info on the variety from the new Cherry picker book.

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/16/2023 at 10:19 PM, robec1347 said:

I do like die polish. I was going through part of a roll of 1959 Lincoln’s I shared with another collector. Out of the 20 coin I had I found matching polish lines from 4 different dies. These are 3 of 4 coins from one of the dies. 
 

From another die pair 

Looks like something you'd find on a circa 1960's tie-dyed T-shirt.  🤣

[robec1347]

On 10/17/2023 at 3:57 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Looks like something you'd find on a circa 1960's tie-dyed T-shirt.  🤣

Ah, the good ole days! 
 

This is one of the coins in the roll

Edited October 17, 2023 by robec1347

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/17/2023 at 11:22 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

.....die polish lines are raised above the surface.....whereas hairlines are submerged/into the coin itself....

Have to look VERY CLOSELY to tell the difference, as Sandon said.

The first time I came across this Topic, lacking familiarity with the subject matter, I read it and moved on until Eureka!  it suddenly occurred to me why I was initially alarmed about the barely discernable lines I observed on a gold Rooster I had acquired from overseas a few years back. I had no idea what they were or their significance.

Now a member above "quoting" Sandon said you have to look "VERY CLOSELY" to tell the difference, but as the venerable VKurtB counseled me early on years ago, I may not, by extension use my highly irregular ["it's just not done, numismatically"]  30-power loupe to investigate the presence of lands and grooves on the coin's surface. Fair enough. I haven't. Instead, I cheated and shone a light obliquely at the coin from various directions. (Posting the coin here would serve no purpose as it presently resides entombed in plastic and fails to adequately display the evidence alluded to.) In any event, I appreciate the facts as set forth in this thread because it appears the phenomenon I see are but a manifestation of die polish lines. The coin, graded MS-67, exhibits full mint luster revealing details that otherwise would never be seen as sharply on lesser graded examples.

I thank the OP for introducing the topic, Sandon for expounding on it, and my fellow members for weighing in.  

[BillJones]

Generally, I don't like them. That is especially true for a special coin, like the 2009 Ultra High Relief double eagle. The mint sent me one with polishing marks in the field. I was not happy with it and ultimately bought another one in the secondary market. 

[GoldFinger1969]

Bill, do they have separate dies that they apply the polish or what ?  I ask because:

I think I'm a bit confused again:  this whole thread was on die polishing lines.....I presume we're talking about the striking dies above...when does POLISH get applied, if at all ?  And on any coins, or just Proofs ? 

[ldhair]

The actual dies used to strike the coins get polished. For the most part, only the high points on the die get polished. Those high point are what create the fields on the coin. A believe all dies get polished when first made. They may also be polished again after use to fix problems and keep using the die. Polishing can reduce or remove clash marks on the die. I'm thinking the mint has used a few different machines for polishing. 

I have seen images of one type of machine. The die gets mounted in the machine and a disk rotates below the face of the die. The disk has diamond dust on it or some other type of compound. Roger can probably correct me with better information. His book from Mine To Mint has some information on the topic.  

[BillJones]

On 11/21/2023 at 2:42 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Bill, do they have separate dies that they apply the polish or what ?  I ask because:

I think I'm a bit confused again:  this whole thread was on die polishing lines.....I presume we're talking about the striking dies above...when does POLISH get applied, if at all ?  And on any coins, or just Proofs ? 

Yes, all of the dies are polished before they are used to strike coins. The Proof coins get special attention.

Sometimes the Proof coin dies are re-polished to extend their useful life, and sometimes the results can be really bad in my opinion. Proof coins are supposed to have perfectly mirrored fields. When you have a bunch of polish lines on a Proof coin, which are raised BTW, they can look very much like hairlines. I avoid those coins, regardless of the grades a TPG might put them. This was a bigger problem in the 1950s and than it is today. 

Sometimes Proof coins lose design features when they are re-polished. This was a big problem in the 1940s. The Walking Liberty Half Dollars that are missing the designer's initials on the reverse are an example. Once more I prefer not to buy those coins, but error collectors think they are cool. 

[Lem E]

I think they got a little aggressive with this one.

 

 

[VKurtB]

On 12/12/2023 at 7:15 PM, Lem E said:

I think they got a little aggressive with this one.

 

 

There are two unrelated things going on here on this “Jeff”. The field lines are one thing, and the cheek/collar lines are quite another.