Submission Requirements For Error Coin Certification 1 1

[scarecro]

I have what I believe is a 1971-D Kennedy halve struck on a 40% silver planchet. Research has suggested that an official certification is required to establish whether my coin is one of these rare examples. I have been advised not to attempt any cleaning of the coin. Does the certification process include cleaning prior to encapsulation? Also, does the certification include condition grading of the coin?

Obviously, a total newbie here so any assistance or guidance sincerely appreciated. Photos attached.

[Greenstang]

Welcome to the Forum

First of all, what makes you think it is a 40% Silver  planchet.  
And no, certification does not include cleaning as you are not supposed to clean coins
and yes, certification would include grading.

[VKurtB]

You do not have a 40% silver 1971-D half dollar. Stop. Please. The same “stuff” that is on the coin that makes you ask about cleaning is hiding the otherwise obvious copper on the edge. 

Edited September 2, 2023 by VKurtB

[Sandon]

   Welcome to the NGC chat board. It would be helpful if you would post, clear cropped photos of each side of the coin that show the coin much closer and so not show much of the surface on which it sits.  Close up photos of all of its edge would also be helpful in these circumstances.

   I'll answer your question, but first please understand that we have had numerous people claim on these forums to have found coins struck on wrong metal planchets, including pieces that are extremely rare but are known to exist, such as 1943 bronze cents and 1974-D or 1977-D 40% silver Eisenhower dollars, as well as pieces that are not known to exist, including 40% silver 1971-D Kennedy half dollars.   To my knowledge, all of these claimants have invariably been wrong. Such wrong metal pieces as do exist are generally found within a few years of a coin's issuance. Your coin is 52 years old, and no genuine silver clad example has ever been reported to my knowledge. The odds of your coin being a discovery specimen after so many years are slim and nil. The apparent lack of copper color on the edge is not much evidence, as the coin could have been plated or the edge tampered with.

   Have you weighed this coin on a properly calibrated, good quality digital scale that measures to at least hundredths of a gram?  The official weight of a silver clad Kennedy half dollar is 11.50 grams, while that of a copper-nickel clad example is 11.34 grams. Although the respective allowed "plus or minus" tolerances of 0.400 and 0.454 grams mean that the weight would not be dispositive either, if your coin weighs closer to 11.34 grams than 11.50 grams, it is in all likelihood of the normal copper-nickel clad composition.

   If you are insistent upon submitting this coin to NGC, please carefully review the various topics under the "Submit" tab of the NGC home page, including, but not limited to "How to Submit," "Coins We Grade & Policies," and "Services & Fees". (To submit to other reputable services such as PCGS (pcgs.com) or ANACS (anacs.com), see the instructions on their websites.) NGC requires a paid membership to submit coins, as does PCGS.   You will then have to fill out the submission form, including the choice of a "tier" based upon your estimated value of the coin and how quickly you want it to be returned. I recommend the "Modern" ($19 grading fee) tier, although in the unlikely event NGC finds the coin to be silver clad, NGC could charge you a higher tier fee based upon NGC's assessment of a market value higher than the $3,000 limit for the Modern tier. You will also have to pay an $18 "Mint Error" attribution fee, a $10 processing fee, a minimum $28 return shipping fee, and your cost to have the coin shipped to NGC. It would appear that this coin would also require the payment of the $75 "metallurgic analysis fee" to authenticate. You may wish to contact NGC after the holiday to discuss this and any other questions you may have. 

   You will likely be wasting your time and money, but it is yours to waste. Please let us know how it turns out.

[EagleRJO]

On 9/2/2023 at 6:06 PM, Sandon said:

Have you weighed this coin on a properly calibrated, good quality digital scale that measures to at least hundredths of a gram?

I don't think just weighing the coin is very useful here since a 1971-D 50C on a normal Cu-Ni planchet with a specified weigh of 11.34g could weigh up to 11.79g and still be within mint tolerances, while a 50C on an earlier date 40% silver clad planchet has a specified weight of 11.50g.  They are just too close in weight.

On 9/2/2023 at 3:27 PM, scarecro said:

I have what I believe is a 1971-D Kennedy halve struck on a 40% silver planchet.

The mint changed the type of metal used for 50C blanks in 1971 to a Copper-Nickel (Cu-Ni) metal, so there are some transitional metal error coins from the beginning of 1971 known to exist that were stuck on the previous years 40% silver clad planchets, like the attached.  It's one of the things I look for when going through rolls of older 50C coins.

The first thing to do is look carefully at the edge to see if there is any evidence of the pure copper core used with the Cu-Ni coins.  See the attached pic showing how the edges for various composition 50C coins typically look.  The pic you posted is not very good or cropped around the coin so it shows up blurry from your post, and there may be some crud on the edges hiding the core which might be removed by soaking the coin in acetone.

There have been suspected planchet error coins with an apparent darker silver like colored edge posted on the forum which turned out to be struck on a normal Cu-Ni planchet.  So before you spend around $100 submitting the coin to NGC I would recommend that you either take it to a shop that can do an XRF test of the coin composition or do a specific gravity (SG) test.

You can do a rudimentary SG test which is fairly simple to do with an accurate scale (+/- 0.01g), a small plastic cup or piece of a plastic bottle with water (so you can see the coin is not touching the cup), and a piece of thread.  The SG for a 40% silver clad coin is 9.53 and the SG for a Cu-Ni coin is 8.92. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN3tlmQSUuI&t=4s

Edited September 3, 2023 by EagleRJO

[scarecro]

Thank you for the replies, especially to Sandon and EagleRJO for your specific answers to my questions and suggestions for further identification. I have included an edge comparison photo showing Kennedy halves dated 1994(clad), 1968(40%), my 1971(???) and 1964(90%). And, after some light cleaning with distilled water, mild liquid soap and a very soft toothbrush, higher resolution photos of my coin. I shall be conducting a specific gravity test tomorrow after Amazon delivers a digital scale.

[J P M]

Well it looks clean now.  the coin is well circulated from the looks. I don't care how soft the brush was. It left scratches behind

[VKurtB]

On 9/2/2023 at 7:04 PM, scarecro said:

And, after some light cleaning with distilled water, mild liquid soap and a very soft toothbrush,

Do not ever ever ever do this. 

[Sandon]

   I was mistaken that there is no known example of a 1971-D Kennedy half dollar struck on a silver clad planchet.  Even after over fifty years collecting, one still has something to learn. This one hasn't been much publicized, as I could find no mention of it on PCGS Coinfacts, the NGC Coin Explorer, or the deluxe edition of the Redbook. Does anyone know how many are known to exist?

   You should never expose a coin you think may be valuable to any abrasive surface, including a toothbrush, or to any chemical (even soap) other than a solvent that removes foreign matter without reacting with the coin metal such as acetone.  Collectors today value originality above all, and a coin with noticeable "hairlines" from being brushed or with an unnatural color or texture due to chemical treatment will be described as "cleaned" and given a "details" instead of a numerical grade by the grading services.  Such coins can be difficult to sell and trade at a discount that varies with the perceived severity of the "cleaning".  Hopefully, if this coin does turn out to have been struck on a silver clad planchet, it will not be described as "cleaned".

   If a specific gravity test suggests that the coin has a 40% silver composition, the XRF (x-ray fluorescence) test would be in order. NGC uses the XRF method for metallurgical analysis. See NGC Launches New Metallurgic Analysis Service | NGC (ngccoin.com).  I continue to have serious doubts based on what I see in your photos, including the coin's color, but let's see how it turns out.   

[Mike Meenderink]

If your mystery coin is 3rd in the stack I can see the copper layer discoloration in the photo. This coin is significantly circulated. The copper layer is dark but visible from the edge profiles. Sorry.

[EagleRJO]

On 9/2/2023 at 9:45 PM, J P M said:

Well it looks clean now.  the coin is well circulated from the looks. I don't care how soft the brush was. It left scratches behind

Agreed

On 9/2/2023 at 8:04 PM, scarecro said:

... after some light cleaning with distilled water, mild liquid soap and a very soft toothbrush, higher resolution photos of my coin.

I don't know where you got the idea to use a toothbrush (probably a you tube vid), but that was a mistake you hopefully will not make again.  If it turns out to be an error coin you have likely devalued it by causing very fine hairlines that would result in you getting a "Details" grade.

My three basic rules for coin collecting:

1. Always carefully handle and store coins
2. NEVER clean a coin
3. Know the coin before you buy the coin

Note that when handling cons hold them by the edges or use cotton/nitrile gloves, and I don't consider soaking a coin in acetone to remove fingerprints and loose organics "cleaning" or "dipping".

Edited September 5, 2023 by EagleRJO

[powermad5000]

Don't clean coins. Period. If you wish for better appearance (still not perfect but better), send it to NCS and have it conserved.

[scarecro]

No surprise to most here that the SG of my coin is 8.874 suggesting that it is not a silver coin. Thanks again to all who shared their thoughts and opinions regarding my inquiry. And, no more coin cleaning for me!  

[EagleRJO]

On 9/4/2023 at 10:20 AM, scarecro said:

SG of my coin is 8.874 suggesting that it is not a silver coin

Definitely looks like it's a Cu-Ni planchet as expected since it would be closer to 9.5 if 40% silver clad.  But maybe just double check that next time you are in a coin or jewelry shop with an XRF due to the edge appearance.

[VKurtB]

Believe it or not, those of us with 60+ years of experience can actually see things and know them simply by looking at them. I never needed an SG test to see this was 75/25 Cu/Ni surfaces. But you guys apparently get off running scientific tests, so carry on. 

[EagleRJO]

On 9/2/2023 at 4:05 PM, VKurtB said:

You do not have a 40% silver 1971-D half dollar. Stop. Please. The same “stuff” that is on the coin that makes you ask about cleaning is hiding the otherwise obvious copper on the edge. 

On 9/4/2023 at 6:38 PM, VKurtB said:

Believe it or not, those of us with 60+ years of experience can actually see things and know them simply by looking at them. I never needed an SG test to see this was 75/25 Cu/Ni surfaces. But you guys apparently get off running scientific tests, so carry on. 

Maybe you could point out where you definitively identified the op's coin as being on a 75/25 Cu-Ni planchet except to point out the obvious that there was likely something on the edge hiding the otherwise visible copper colored core.

[VKurtB]

On 9/4/2023 at 5:53 PM, EagleRJO said:

Maybe you could point out where you definitively identified the op's coin as being on a 75/25 Cu-Ni planchet except to point out the obvious that there was likely something on the edge hiding the otherwise visible copper colored core.

The reflectivity was unlike any 80% silver surface (the surface of the so-called 40%). The reflectivity was obviously that of the Cu/Ni 75/25 coins. Do you have a Dansco album with BU Kennedy halves sitting side by side with each other? I do, and quite a few solid date rolls in addition. The differences are obvious. Were the two quarters in the picture above not obviously the same color as the half to your eye?

Edited September 4, 2023 by VKurtB

[EagleRJO]

None of that was previously noted, and I have seen many older half dollars as it's one of the coins I roll hunt and we both know the appearance can vary considerably.

[VKurtB]

The next thing I roll hunt will be the first thing I roll hunt.

[scarecro]

On 9/4/2023 at 4:04 PM, VKurtB said:

The next thing I roll hunt will be the first thing I roll hunt.

To VKB: Do you get off being such a pompous, arrogant bully? It sure looks like it. I came to this site with very little numismatic experience seeking help in identifying what I found to be a strange coin. Most have been helpful, but not you. You belittled me and treated me like child. Shame on you! I hope the moderators seriously consider censuring your behavior and restricting your access to post such vehement messages.

FYI, I am, in fact, a 71-year old retiree who will not be utilizing this site for any further numismatic help or advice.

[scarecro]

To EagleRJO: Thank you for your help with your positive supportive comments to me about my coin. Thank you also for challenging VBK's arrogant remarks relative to my inquiry. I believe that trying to reason with him is akin to reasoning withTrump. Might as well just beat your head against a brick wall.

[VKurtB]

On 9/4/2023 at 9:24 PM, scarecro said:

To VKB: Do you get off being such a pompous, arrogant bully? It sure looks like it. I came to this site with very little numismatic experience seeking help in identifying what I found to be a strange coin. Most have been helpful, but not you. You belittled me and treated me like child. Shame on you! I hope the moderators seriously consider censuring your behavior and restricting your access to post such vehement messages.

FYI, I am, in fact, a 71-year old retiree who will not be utilizing this site for any further numismatic help or advice.

I have simply lost ALL patience with the foolishness of trying to find error coins by hunting rolls. It is a type of insanity that has befallen this hobby and it is a colossal waste of time and resources. “Strange” has zero value. “Different” has zero value. “Unusual” has zero value. “Superior”, on the other hand, has ALL the value. Error coins do exist, but finding them in rolls or commerce is a fool’s errand. They are typically purchased from specialists. Why? Because worthwhile errors almost never survive the handling by the Federal Reserve banks’ and the rolling jobbers’ activities.   The flow of commerce of errors typically goes from ballistic bag to rolling jobber, then DIRECTLY to an error coin dealer, because the rolling jobber employees have those dealers on speed dial.  I’m not here to be anybody’s cheerleader. The hobby is what it is, warts and all. The Magical Thinking in this hobby has simply GOT TO STOP.

And no, I don’t buy lottery tickets, either.

Edited September 5, 2023 by VKurtB

[EagleRJO]

On 9/4/2023 at 10:24 PM, scarecro said:

I am, in fact, a 71-year old retiree who will not be utilizing this site for any further numismatic help or advice.

@scarecro I wouldn't give up on the site or Kurt so easily, as there are many knowledgeable and helpful members.  Just like many other forums, if you post on any regularly, you will always get some negative comments or styles.

Even Kurt is very knowledgeable and helpful (sometimes ) if you can see past the gruff outer shell.

[VKurtB]

On 9/4/2023 at 10:14 PM, EagleRJO said:

@scarecro I wouldn't give up on the site or Kurt so easily, as there are many knowledgeable and helpful members.  Just like many other forums, if you post on any regularly, you will always get some negative comments or styles.

Even Kurt is very knowledgeable and helpful (sometimes ) if you can see past the gruff outer shell.

You realize, of course, that the gruff outer shell is 100% intentional, right? My tolerance for foolishness has simply run out. Here’s an example: When someone discovers an error that should not exist, such as the PCGS slabbed 40% silver 1971-D above, many people think, “Well if that guy found one, I can too.” But that is a fallacy. It presupposes a steady supply of such pieces. But no! Every one found makes it far LESS LIKELY that another will be found! Because there never should have been any at all. The supply is tiny and VERY finite. This is the kind of higher level probability analysis that most people have never encountered. Having studied it intensively, its lack in others frankly annoys me. 

Edited September 5, 2023 by VKurtB

[EagleRJO]

On 9/4/2023 at 10:41 PM, VKurtB said:

I have simply lost ALL patience with the foolishness of trying to find error coins by hunting rolls.

I will be the first to admit that even though I have been searching quarter and half dollar rolls and pocket change for a long time, I have never found any very rare or valuable errors or varieties.

But I still do it, although mostly quarters lately.  I still find it interesting searching for them and filling up books or albums, like many others.  Maybe if I have been collecting as long as you have without finding anything significant I will give up too.  

[VKurtB]

On 9/4/2023 at 10:26 PM, EagleRJO said:

I will be the first to admit that even though I have been searching quarter and half dollar rolls and pocket change for a long time, I have never found any very rare or valuable errors or varieties.

But I still do it, although mostly quarters lately.  I still find it interesting searching for them and filling up books or albums, like many others.  Maybe if I have been collecting as long as you have without finding anything significant I will give up too.  

My 61st year, checking every coin I’ve ever received, yet not roll hunting (I do the opposite - I buy rolls to keep intact.) and nothing. Not even one single significant error I can see without serious optics. Ironically, I HAVE found somewhat scarce varieties in U.S. Mint directly purchased proof sets. 

[EagleRJO]

On 9/4/2023 at 11:19 PM, VKurtB said:

You realize, of course, that the gruff outer shell is 100% intentional, right?

Of course, that's why I can see past that.

I think it's a systemic problem in our society that people, particularly younger generations, expect to be handled with kid gloves and everyone needs to be treated like they are special, and therefore easily triggered.

Edited September 5, 2023 by EagleRJO

[VKurtB]

Before I retired, when I was working in the Pennsylvania State Capitol, I received about $300 in change every year, in all 6 circulating denominations (yes, half dollars and dollars too - about a roll per year of halves). Since I retired to Alabama, far far less. We do circulate New Orleans pieces here though (Kidding!). Most guys who are committed metal detectorists do find lots of “O” coins though. (Not kidding.) And Civil War ammo. If I tried my backyard, the City’s maps tell me I’ll find a 16 inch sewer main. So I won’t be digging. 
 

Most of my spending now is card based. Cash here is mostly used to buy meth. (Again, kidding,… kind of.)

[EagleRJO]

On 9/4/2023 at 11:52 PM, VKurtB said:

Most of my spending now is card based. Cash here is mostly used to buy meth. (Again, kidding,… kind of.)

Yea, same here.  I used to fill up buckets with pocket change, then occasionally go through that and then cash that in at a local bank that had a coin machine.

I have maybe a handful of change coins from the past year, and the local bank no longer has the coin machine.  Even vending machines mostly have a card slot now.  So I just roll hunt now, periodically updating the sorting mats I use.  And more recently started collecting older dollar, half dollar and German coins I really like or want as I have more spare time and cash now.

Edited September 5, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Mike824]

On 9/4/2023 at 10:37 PM, scarecro said:

I believe that trying to reason with him is akin to reasoning withTrump. Might as well just beat your head against a brick wall.

Well, now you've gone and shown your 🫏. Not a good idea to bring politics into a coin forum.🤦‍♂️

Edited September 5, 2023 by Mike824
Replaced my explicit language for a much milder emote.