Another Seated Dollar for my Box of 20 0

[Walkerfan]

@RWB Okay.  Fair enough.  I don’t want to ever discourage Free thought and personal opinions. 

[ldhair]

I have no problem with this coin in a 58 or 61 holder. I would almost bet the coin could be bounced around between the different services and get different opinions. It's a really pretty coin and that's all that will matter when it goes up for sell. 

[VKurtB]

On 8/26/2023 at 6:10 PM, RWB said:

The 1869 dollar is, I feel, fully worth a premium sum for its actual quality, and might be valued higher than a scruffy UNC.

"Lowball" is defined as deliberately denigrating or under grading for personal gain. I'm known for objectivity and describing what I see without financial bias or personal gain. The hope is that you will (if the coin is as photographed) learn.

Repeating the earlier comment: "The 1869 dollar is, I feel, fully worth a premium sum for its actual quality, and might be valued higher than a scruffy UNC."

Photos are ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS a sketchy way to evaluate ANY coin AU50 and above. Things can be hidden or revealed by photos, even without intent. 

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/26/2023 at 4:17 PM, zadok said:

.... theres something about having pedigreed coins in ur own collection that makes it seem like u r following in the footsteps of some of the previous great collectors....

Ah, yes indeed... I inherited my stock as pedigreed from the world-renowned Quintus Arrius Collection. 🤣

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/26/2023 at 10:32 PM, VKurtB said:

Photos are ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS a sketchy way to evaluate ANY coin AU50 and above. Things can be hidden or revealed by photos, even without intent. 

On reflection, I am inclined to agree. No method can supersede personal, in-your-own-hand, inspection. I can recall instances where photos were not available. It is by dint of sheer luck that reliance upon description-alone, sight-unseen, did not backfire catastrophically, especially on an international order where you are dependent on total strangers you will never meet or ever speak to. I did my due diligence to the extent I was able to, but I do not believe I would be comfortable doing so again. A clearly discernable thumbprint on an MS-66 coin I bought early on and still have, described as a "frosty gem" or possessing "frosty luster," or some such, was nothing of the kind. (A former member advised resubmitting it for conservation which he maintained should have been done at the outset; I did not pursue that avenue out of sheer laziness rationalizing it was still an MS-66, regardless.) I have gotten quite an education these past 4-1/2 years or so.

[zadok]

On 8/26/2023 at 5:19 PM, Walkerfan said:

Do you happen to know what it sold for back then?

Edit to add: Sold for $2,350.00, in 2013...It was in NGC plastic back then.  I checked NGC Auction Central.    

...what he said....

[samclemen3991]

Truly stunning coin Walkerfan.  Uncirculated coin grading by photo is a weakness of mine.  One reason I stay in the  AU and lower waters.  I may have missed it, but could you post the current grade if you get a chance?

[Hoghead515]

On 8/27/2023 at 1:04 PM, samclemen3991 said:

Truly stunning coin Walkerfan.  Uncirculated coin grading by photo is a weakness of mine.  One reason I stay in the  AU and lower waters.  I may have missed it, but could you post the current grade if you get a chance?

MS61

[samclemen3991]

Thanks Hoghead.  Uncirculated grades sometimes baffle me.  I believe MS-61 is supposed to have negative eye appeal.  Go figure.

[VKurtB]

On 8/26/2023 at 9:58 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Ah, yes indeed... I inherited my stock as pedigreed from the world-renowned Quintus Arrius Collection. 🤣

Will there be provenance labels forthcoming?

[Hoghead515]

On 8/29/2023 at 1:17 PM, VKurtB said:

Will there be provenance labels forthcoming?

How do you go about getting that done? I may start getting "The Hog Head Hoard" put on all my slabs. 

[VKurtB]

On 8/29/2023 at 2:32 PM, Hoghead515 said:

How do you go about getting that done? I may start getting "The Hog Head Hoard" put on all my slabs. 

There is a small fee for it. Talk to NGC Customer Service. 

[Walkerfan]

On 8/26/2023 at 5:43 PM, RWB said:

OK. Remember, this conversation when you eventually sell it.

 

On 8/26/2023 at 11:06 PM, Henri Charriere said:

If institutional memory serves, I do believe the OP made clear on an unrelated thread he does not intend to sell this, or any of his other coins. That will be a matter for his heirs to address.

 

The above post has, thoroughly, angered me (which I’m sure was your trollish intent), so I must speak my mind:

I never said that.  Don’t put words in my mouth.  And I don’t appreciate that other buffoon, RWB, implying that I am going to lose money, on my coin THAT I JUST PURCHASED, when I sell it before I die.  Ridiculous!  That is a really crappy thing to say and completely FALSE.  What kind of bitter person says something like that?!  He’s not a collector.  He doesn’t buy anything.  He just bashes other peoples’ numismatic items out of spite or jealousy.  Most people don’t even pay attention to him.  I am quite certain that I will far outlive both of you two old fools.

I showed it to a TRUE expert and he agreed with me that the coin is mint state and likely under graded by one point.  Besides, the coin has been in both NGC AND PCGS plastic, so it has been independently reviewed AND graded, by not just one, but TWO, of the leading services in the industry.  Both agreed that it's Mint State.  

I thought this was supposed to be fun.  This used to be a good place to post, 15 years ago, but it has really devolved.  Many of the good people got fed up and left.  Mostly trolls post here, now.  It’s really sad, because it ruins it for the few good people who are still here and I feel bad for them.  

This is my last post on this topic…and I have serious doubts as to whether I am going to share anything else here, again.  Registry only for me from now on…

Edited August 29, 2023 by Walkerfan

[zadok]

On 8/29/2023 at 5:20 PM, Walkerfan said:

 

 

The above post has, thoroughly, angered me (which I’m sure was your trollish intent), so I must speak my mind:

I never said that.  Don’t put words in my mouth.  And I don’t appreciate that other buffoon, RWB, implying that I am going to lose money, on my coin THAT I JUST PURCHASED, when I sell it before I die.  Ridiculous!  That is a really crappy thing to say and completely FALSE.  What kind of bitter person says something like that?!  He’s not a collector.  He doesn’t buy anything.  He just bashes other peoples’ numismatic items out of spite or jealousy.  Most people don’t even pay attention to him.  I am quite certain that I will far outlive both of you two old fools.

I showed it to a TRUE expert and he agreed with me that the coin is mint state and likely under graded by one point.  Besides, the coin has been in both NGC AND PCGS plastic, so it has been reviewed AND graded by not just one, but TWO, of the leading services in the industry.

I thought this was supposed to be fun.  This used to be a good place to post, 15 years ago, but it has really devolved.  Many of the good people got fed up and left.  Mostly trolls post here, now.  It’s really sad, because it ruins it for the few good people who are still here and I feel bad for them.  

This is my last post on this topic…and I have serious doubts as to whether I am going to share anything else here, again.  Registry only for me from now on…

..u r so correct on many fronts...the intent of the forum is/was to share findings n discoveries n to encourage interesting n exploratory conversation on the hobby...however, it has devolved in some areas to a much lower level of cynical n negative opinionated bias that cast a shadow over the intent...yes there have been a few total i-d-i-o-t-s on here that eventually departed when ignored n of course r resident babbler n naysayer one who actually believes that his posts r constantly being monitored as if his comments warrant oversight n the other backslapper who has no where else to go n believes he is a self-imposed authority on everything, he who none of the tpgs or major auction houses every request any opinions from n the major publishers, well lets just say not waiting in line...neither of which, as u point out, r really collectors of coins just fringe participants of the hobby...there r a few true coin experts on the forum none of which run around shouting look at me, u can tell their expertise simply by their presentation of subject matter (commemoratives, nickels, seated, bust, 19th century small denoms, to name just a few), when they speak the forum recognizes the substance n depth of their knowledge...we also have members here who r deeply involved in the maintaining of the hobby and its various adjuncts that build up the hobby (yes u vkurt) n dont try to tear it down at every opportunity as those few do...many members such as urself try to add positive comments n contributions for the benefit of others n yes im certain that there r many who sit quietly n listen n try to learn from others past experiences...i encourage u to continue ur contributions n ignore the cynical few...ur contributions of choice under appreciated coins far outweigh any negative opinions others may express here...we all have some obligation to assist n educate fellow collectors by sharing our finds...now i have to do something important n go to the bathroom....

[Hoghead515]

I know Im no expert in no kind of way. Some may not agree with me on this and some may. But my true honest opinion. I really think the coin looks under graded. That is just by the pictures. I dont have it in hand but Ill take the word of the new owner.  I think it is a true beauty. I think its got beautiful toning to it and its very lusterous. I can only ever hope to own one like that one of these days. That was a great purchase. I kept it to myself because I stink at grading but, before I knew the grade I was thinking it was at least a MS63. Congratulations on your wonderful seated dollar @Walkerfan!! She is a beauty. 

[zadok]

On 8/29/2023 at 6:18 PM, Hoghead515 said:

I know Im no expert in no kind of way. Some may not agree with me on this and some may. But my true honest opinion. I really think the coin looks under graded. That is just by the pictures. I dont have it in hand but Ill take the word of the new owner.  I think it is a true beauty. I think its got beautiful toning to it and its very lusterous. I can only ever hope to own one like that one of these days. That was a great purchase. I kept it to myself because I stink at grading but, before I knew the grade I was thinking it was at least a MS63. Congratulations on your wonderful seated dollar @Walkerfan!! She is a beauty. 

...none of us r experts, just tenderfeet trying to get our merit badge, ur instincts r correct the coin appears better in person than in photos almost as all coins do except those on ebay n etsy where the photos r enhanced...i was fortunate to see many of the coins from this collection in person n i assure u there r no sluggards...i personally would have graded the coin as ms62...the coin was never circulated, but there r some minor handling marks as there would be on any coin that was bagged with other coins n processed thru the various mint machinations...u know, just as a matter of conversation, a good question that every collector must decide for themselves is..."where does circulation begin?"...after it is struck, after it leaves the mint, after it leaves the bank, when the recipient at the bank first spends it????...dont let anyone on this forum or any other answer that for u because there is no established answer, just opinions...but ur own answer will help u decide on purchases...keep with ur instincts they r well founded....

[Henri Charriere]

For the record... 

The OP introduced his latest acquisition, and stated:  "What are your thoughts? I appreciate all feedback." So far, so good.  A number of members weighed in with no negative feedback whatsoever. The coin was certified so it really wouldn't matter what anyone thought. I do not know why the OP solicited comments, but okay, the members had their say. The latest reply by z, directly preceding this one, mirrors my own assessment perfectly.  It is a stunning piece which much be seen to be appreciated.  My only misstep was in stating, "if institutional memory serves, I do believe..." and apparently I was wrong.  I had read a thread years ago, simply entitled, in substance, what preparations have you made for your heirs...  Apparently, I misattributed the reply I had read as belonging to the OP.  RWB had written, in effect, remember what I've written when it comes time to sell.  I said, if memory serves, he's not selling so the admonition is inapplicable.  (Other complimentary commentary I had made was excised by Moderation as superfluous.)  I do not know how or why my commentary was cast in such a negative way, but if the OP interpreted it that way, I sincerely apologize, as that was not my intent. On balance, the OP asked for feedback and got it. I, personally, would not have construed any as being negative. Some coins are beyond description in mere words. Yours is one of them.  

Edit:  The topic I referred to hereinabove, was titled:  "How are you preparing your collection for your heirs?", by Woods020, dated January 13, 2022. I re-read all 44 replies and can confirm the OP's name does not appear in any of them. Honest mistake.  Again, my sincere apologies.

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by Henri Charriere
Specific topic alluded to.

[Walkerfan]

On 8/29/2023 at 7:04 PM, Henri Charriere said:

For the record... 

The OP introduced his latest acquisition, and stated:  "What are your thoughts? I appreciate all feedback." So far, so good.  A number of members weighed in with no negative feedback whatsoever. The coin was certified so it really wouldn't matter what anyone thought. I do not know why the OP solicited comments, but okay, the members had their say. The latest reply by z, directly preceding this one, mirrors my own assessment perfectly.  It is a stunning piece which much be seen to be appreciated.  My only misstep was in stating, "if institutional memory serves, I do believe..." and apparently I was wrong.  I had read a thread years ago, simply entitled, in substance, what preparations have you made for your heirs...  Apparently, I misattributed the reply I had read as belonging to the OP.  RWB had written, in effect, remember what I've written when it comes time to sell.  I said, if memory serves, he's not selling so the admonition is inapplicable.  (Other complimentary commentary I had made was excised by Moderation as superfluous.)  I do not know how or why my commentary was cast in such a negative way, but if the OP interpreted it that way, I sincerely apologize, as that was not my intent. On balance, the OP asked for feedback and got it. I, personally, would not have construed any as being negative. Some coins are beyond description in mere words. Yours is one of them.  

Edit:  The topic I referred to hereinabove, was titled:  "How are you preparing your collection for your heirs?", by Woods020, dated January 13, 2022. I re-read all 44 replies and can confirm the OP's name does not appear in any of them. Honest mistake.  Again, my sincere apologies.

 

Apology accepted.  I hold no grudge against you, now, so I am prepared to move on.  I do appreciate the positive things that you said.    

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/26/2023 at 6:52 PM, Henri Charriere said:

To the OP:   It appears I have been shouted down before I'd even had a chance to weigh in. 🤣  By the time I had recovered from RWB's initial flash-bang post, Sandon leveled the playing field leaving me and guest viewers with delectable morsels to chew on. 

This is one of those momentous occasions when evaluating a coin straddling the "Degree of Greatness Divide," can either be a travesty or a tragedy. The following is MY opinion which you are free to quote for attribution. 

This coin never entered "circulation," as that term is commonly used by hobbyists. Any issues which may have arisen in its remarkably long shelf life can be attributed in pertinent part to less than ideal, otherwise unremarkable inter-steward transfers of ownership and, most regrettably, less than ideal storage conditions. [In your opening, you initially referred to your coin as "she" and later, as "it."  You got it right the first time.  She is absolutely stunning and your finest acquisition to date.   

 

No, the Moderators did NOT excise my comment.  Here it is in its full unexpurgated glory.  Nothing negative at all.

[VKurtB]

The “Undisputed Numismatist of the Year” has a lengthy track record of being wrong on the low side virtually EVERY TIME he makes a stab at grading anything. 
 

There’s an attitude behind his record. It’s a natural attitude that must be consciously fought off by ANYONE seeking to retain credibility. He believes everything must remain as it was when he first learned to grade. Any change is automatically “wrong” in his mind. I call “male bovine feces” on the entire thought process. The world did not stop evolving in the late 1970’s to the 1980’s. Evolution continues apace. Grading changes. It continues to change, and it will change more (hopefully not radically) in the future. That needs to be okay. Eventually, someone will apply AI to coin grading in a marketable service. And the “crusty old veterans who learned a different way” will have to adapt or lose relevance. The Numismatist of the Year is just leading the way into irrelevance. 
 

At age 68, they don’t come much crustier than I am. I strive daily to keep up, usually missing the mark by a bit. That doesn’t mean it’s okay to dig in my heels and ignore or resist change. I keep doing formal courses, on attribution, authentication, and yes, even grading. The ANA’s first grading course is called, with important reason, Grading Coins TODAY, not grading coins in the 1980’s. Then there is a whole extra course on Grading Mint State Coins. You have to invest money and time into keeping your learning up to date. 

Edited August 30, 2023 by VKurtB

[zadok]

On 8/29/2023 at 9:38 PM, VKurtB said:

The “Undisputed Numismatist of the Year” has a lengthy track record of being wrong on the low side virtually EVERY TIME he makes a stab at grading anything. 
 

There’s an attitude behind his record. It’s a natural attitude that must be consciously fought off by ANYONE seeking to retain credibility. He believes everything must remain as it was when he first learned to grade. Any change is automatically “wrong” in his mind. I call “male bovine feces” on the entire thought process. The world did not stop evolving in the late 1970’s to the 1980’s. Evolution continues apace. Grading changes. It continues to change, and it will change more (hopefully not radically) in the future. That needs to be okay. Eventually, someone will apply AI to coin grading in a marketable service. And the “crusty old veterans who learned a different way” will have to adapt or lose relevance. The Numismatist of the Year is just leading the way into irrelevance. 
 

At age 68, they don’t come much crustier than I am. I strive daily to keep up, usually missing the mark by a bit. That doesn’t mean it’s okay to dig in my heels and ignore or resist change. I keep doing formal courses, on attribution, authentication, and yes, even grading. The ANA’s first grading course is called, with important reason, Grading Coins TODAY, not grading coins in the 1980’s. Then there is a whole extra course on Grading Mint State Coins. You have to invest money and time into keeping your learning up to date. 

...when i first started to collect on a serious note rather than just fill holes, uncirculated coins were UNC, CH UNC n GEM...photograde was a positive addition to the hobby n provided a visual reference for collectors...the initial attempts at establishing grading services were feeble n encountered many stumbles but everything must have its first steps n lessons were learned...no grading service can provide 100% consistency mostly because no two coins r identical...sure, if we can map eye retinas for id purposes we can grade coins with AI, but the coins will remain non-identical, the hobby is a subjective one, always was always will be....

[VKurtB]

On 8/30/2023 at 9:54 AM, zadok said:

...when i first started to collect on a serious note rather than just fill holes, uncirculated coins were UNC, CH UNC n GEM...photograde was a positive addition to the hobby n provided a visual reference for collectors...the initial attempts at establishing grading services were feeble n encountered many stumbles but everything must have its first steps n lessons were learned...no grading service can provide 100% consistency mostly because no two coins r identical...sure, if we can map eye retinas for id purposes we can grade coins with AI, but the coins will remain non-identical, the hobby is a subjective one, always was always will be....

I never was comfortable with adjectival uncirculated grades, and I never owned ANY COPY of Photograde. When numerical grading began, I got serious. It was what I had been waiting for all along. I take my grading criteria from written paragraphs, and in-person courses, NEVER photographs. Photograde always seemed both silly and lame.

Edited August 30, 2023 by VKurtB

[rrantique]

MS62* in my opinion

 

 

 

[zadok]

On 8/30/2023 at 11:04 AM, VKurtB said:

I never was comfortable with adjectival uncirculated grades, and I never owned ANY COPY of Photograde. When numerical grading began, I got serious. It was what I had been waiting for all along. I take my grading criteria from written paragraphs, and in-person courses, NEVER photographs. Photograde always seemed both silly and lame.

...understand ur position on adjectival descriptions, especially if u were buying from QA, ud never get to the price...but...photograde did provide a visual reference base for collectors to discuss, purchase, compare coins not in-hand...just as photos r limited so can be those written criteria, the words r only as good as the writer, as we all know some writers r left wanting for skills...now, ur in-person courses, thats bout as good as it can get....

[ldhair]

On 8/30/2023 at 10:04 AM, VKurtB said:

Photograde always seemed both silly and lame.

You missed out. Photograde gave you images and written paragraphs and numerical grading. Most was in line with ANA standards. 

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/30/2023 at 10:54 AM, zadok said:

...no grading service can provide 100% consistency mostly because no two coins r identical...

sure, if we can map eye retinas for id purposes we can grade coins with AI, but the coins will remain non-identical, the hobby is a subjective one, always was always will be....

Troo dat!

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/30/2023 at 1:34 PM, zadok said:

...understand ur position on adjectival descriptions, especially if u were buying from QA, ud never get to the price...

I didn't catch this on first impression. This is pure genius!  It's true. As regarding my predecessor, I shall allow Vladimir to speak for me:  "He was a man with a difficult fate, and he made serious mistakes in life."  🤣

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/26/2023 at 4:01 PM, zadok said:

...i guess every forum must have its jesters, we have him n QA....

["funny, how?... what's funny about me?... how am I funny?... like I'm a clown?... I am here to amuse you?... I make you laugh?... I'm funny, how?"]  🤣