Fake certification? 1 1

[blackfoxDJ]

Sorry if at wrong place.
Saw this piece, with claims to have been sold, at an auction, for around US$200.00, but got a big red flag when who posted it refused to show the cert#, the excuse was to preserve the identity of seller/buyer, so one can verify if it's authentic.
How can One know if it's authentic without the cert#?
Thanks.
Júlio

Edited August 25, 2023 by blackfoxDJ
update info

[Sandon]

   Although a question like yours might have been better posted in the "Newbie Coin Collecting Questions" forum or the "U.S., World and Ancient Coins" forum, it is nevertheless a legitimate one.

  Some sellers, like some forum members, do not show certification numbers so that those who make fake grading service holders won't have serial numbers and grades that match genuine holders and coins.  It is also possible that the seller has more than one coin to sell of this issue and grade and doesn't want to guarantee that a buyer will receive a specific coin. As you point out, this makes it impossible for prospective buyers to verify that the numbers and photos correspond to the correct coin on NGC Certificate Verification.  If you don't like this seller's policy, the answer is simply to not buy from that seller.

[ldhair]

I'm thinking there is a way to read the bar code. Maybe just using your phone. I'm not sure.

[JKK]

There is no reason to buy from someone who refuses to show that information to you, so the question is moot. I would let someone else be this person's victim.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

The coin Cert is 2886178-012.

[blackfoxDJ]

On 8/24/2023 at 11:25 AM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

The coin Cert is 2886178-012.

Thanks, 
May I ask how you found out? I could read the bar code, but didn't know what to do next.

thanks
Júlio

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Download the the NGC app.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

The Cert in your photo doesn't look right, btw.

It looks photo shopped.

I'd give everything a careful look.

[EagleRJO]

On 8/23/2023 at 2:23 PM, blackfoxDJ said:

... who posted it refused to show the cert#, so one can verify if it's authentic.
How can One know if it's authentic without the cert#?

You can ask the seller for the cert number to check, but I have encountered this before where a seller had multiples of the same coin from the same TPG.  In that case just make sure it's a reputable seller with a good return policy, and carefully look at the coin and holder when received.

On 8/24/2023 at 10:56 AM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

The Cert in your photo doesn't look right, btw. ... It looks photo shopped.

Not sure why someone would photoshop a holder pic when you can just download one off the NGC or PCG$ website, but it looks pretty close to me comparing it with the NGC cert photo.  It may just be different lighting that is making it look different.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

You don't see the "funniness" going on?

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Actually, on both photos I see the "funniness" going on.

When I post photos of my own coins in my Registry Sets, full slab photos, there is no "funniness."

By funniness, I'm referring to the semi-blurred  "does not compute" edging around the label.

Maybe it is to be expected when a post is made of an Internet image, to have the blurring edge patterns.  This, as opposed to your own photos dragged into a post.

[VKurtB]

ALL digital photos exhibit “funniness”, other than uncompressed file formats that most people have never heard of. That and LIGHTING. Lighting means more differences than nearly anyone can imagine. I realize this is a 0/2 top pop coin, but there are over a hundred million of them out there. Why was this ever slabbed? It’s a nothing common coin.

Edited August 25, 2023 by VKurtB

[powermad5000]

Typically, if a seller has more than one to sell and blocks out the cert number, as long as the seller has a lengthy enough return policy (by this I mean more than 7 days as it takes an amount of time for the coin to get to you), you can purchase the coin if you wish and when you receive it, you can look up the cert number on the slab you get and verify it with NGC. Then if anything looks "off" you can always return the coin. In this case if the coin in the slab is questionable, if I made a return I would not purchase from the seller again. I do have a short list of sellers that I will not buy coins from due to past problems. I don't need to be "nice" in this hobby when it comes to my purchases and my hard earned money and why I return a coin. It just is and I don't feel I need to provide an explanation.

I do not buy from any seller that does not have a return policy. Period.

[Fenntucky Mike]

I agree, this is a common coin worth a few $'s at best in UNC condition. A big red flag should have gone up when the seller was implying the coin was worth $200! Who cares about the certification at that point. Walk away. 

Interesting to note that there are a few different varieties and errors for the 1998 10 centavos, including at least one major DD. Brazil is somewhat infamous for DD's on modern coinage, I have at least one Brazil DD and I think it was for this date and denomination. If I find the time to look and take pictures I'll post it. 

Edited August 25, 2023 by Fenntucky Mike
Grammar

[blackfoxDJ]

On 8/25/2023 at 7:41 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

I agree, this is a common coin worth a few $'s at best in UNC condition. A big red flag should have gone up when the seller was implying the coin was worth $200! Who cares about the certification at that point. Walk away. 

Interesting to note that there are a few different varieties and errors for the 1998 10 centavos, including at least one major DD. Brazil is somewhat infamous for DD's on modern coinage, I have at least one Brazil DD and I think it was for this date and denomination. If I find the time to look and take pictures I'll post it. 

Indeed, our current coinage system is quite a mess. Not difficult to find error coins.

[EagleRJO]

On 8/24/2023 at 11:20 PM, powermad5000 said:

if I made a return I would not purchase from the seller again

I occasionally return coins and don't necessarily hold that against a dealer, as long as they didn't misrepresent a coin and there are no problems with the return.  Bonus points if I'm sent the return label no matter what the reason is for the return.

I think returns are just part of purchasing coins over the internet only based on pictures, where expectations can be different from how a coin actually looks in-hand.  Sometime I just don't like the way a coin ends up looking in-hand even if the pictures are representative.

On 8/24/2023 at 11:20 PM, powermad5000 said:

I do not buy from any seller that does not have a return policy. Period.

A good position to take.

On 8/24/2023 at 4:50 PM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

Actually, on both photos I see the "funniness" going on.

That can happen, particularly with different lighting as Kurt mentioned.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

On 8/24/2023 at 4:36 PM, EagleRJO said:

You can ask the seller for the cert number to check, but I have encountered this before where a seller had multiples of the same coin from the same TPG.  In that case just make sure it's a reputable seller with a good return policy, and carefully look at the coin and holder when received.

Not sure why someone would photoshop a holder pic when you can just download one off the NGC or PCG$ website, but it looks pretty close to me comparing it with the NGC cert photo.  It may just be different lighting that is making it look different.

These photos don't add up.

[VKurtB]

On 8/26/2023 at 8:54 PM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

These photos don't add up.

I dunno. The pictures add up to 2 of ‘em for me.

[powermad5000]

In the side by side, I see two different photos taken in different lighting situations and by two different cameras with one having better quality and clarity than the other, but minus the shadows and fuzziness of the one on the left, I see two of the same coin.

[blackfoxDJ]

On 8/24/2023 at 10:06 PM, VKurtB said:

ALL digital photos exhibit “funniness”, other than uncompressed file formats that most people have never heard of. That and LIGHTING. Lighting means more differences than nearly anyone can imagine. I realize this is a 0/2 top pop coin, but there are over a hundred million of them out there. Why was this ever slabbed? It’s a nothing common coin.

That's about brazillian newbie collectors, who got engaged due to the world cup commemorative coins, and know nothing but are looking for anything to stand out in their collections, are are really unwilling to reada bit and learn.. 
Someone really "smart" found someone really dumb to pay US$200,00 for that.
P.T Barnum was right.

[VKurtB]

On 8/28/2023 at 6:43 AM, blackfoxDJ said:

That's about brazillian newbie collectors, who got engaged due to the world cup commemorative coins, and know nothing but are looking for anything to stand out in their collections, are are really unwilling to reada bit and learn.. 
Someone really "smart" found someone really dumb to pay US$200,00 for that.
P.T Barnum was right.

Barnum was an optimist.

[Fenntucky Mike]

It was a '98, 10 Centavos. Here you go. 

The stars are noticeable when viewing the coin in hand, along with the doubling in the ribbon below the date, "CENTAVOS" and "1998" just seem blurry and difficult to read until you look at them under magnification. 

[Conder101]

On 8/23/2023 at 3:08 PM, Sandon said:

this makes it impossible for prospective buyers to verify that the numbers and photos correspond to the correct coin on NGC Certificate Verification.

Unless you have a barcode reader app on your phone which will take you to the NGC verification page.  You can get the app on google play or the Apple App Store.  If you go here https://www.ngccoin.com/resources/ngc-app/  you will find direct links on the stores to the NGC App.