Marsh ratings for a previously graded coin. 1 1

[Boo60]

Hi all,

I have an 1887 MS61 gold sovereign graded by NGC. I am sure this is a Marsh rarity (Hooked J DISH 4) and I have seen some gold coins that have the Marsh rarity number on the slab when graded by NGC. How do you send a slabbed coin in for checking when it comes to a Marsh rarity like this? I assume I select Variety plus on the form, but how do I indicate the Marsh code and do I select the reholder option? Can I send this in with other coins or does it have to be on a separate form?

A picture of the rarity is attached.

Thanks in advance. 

Edited August 21, 2023 by Boo60

[Henri Charriere]

I don't know from Marsh code but the denticles are very lovely.  🤣

[Boo60]

Thanks 😂

[Zebo]

On 8/21/2023 at 5:10 PM, Boo60 said:

Hi all,

I have an 1887 MS61 gold sovereign graded by NGC. I am sure this is a Marsh rarity (Hooked J DISH 4) and I have seen some gold coins that have the Marsh rarity number on the slab when graded by NGC. How do you send a slabbed coin in for checking when it comes to a Marsh rarity like this? I assume I select Variety plus on the form, but how do I indicate the Marsh code and do I select the reholder option? Can I send this in with other coins or does it have to be on a separate form?

A picture of the rarity is attached.

Thanks in advance. 

  I would contact NGC and discuss before sending it in. I am not sure who at NGC responsible for varieties these days. 1887s are an interesting bunch. They would determine the variety, but you can write on the submission form what you believe it to be.  
   If you wouldn’t mind, please attach images of the complete obverse and reverse. By stating Dish 4, I am assuming you mean Dish.L4 and not Dish.S4 or Dish.M4.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Zebo
Correction

[Boo60]

Hi Zebo. Yes sorry L4. More images attached. I will contact them thanks. 

[Zebo]

Very Nice find. I was looking at the original Iverson research (booklet) and at that time there was not an example shown for L4. One of the interesting things for your coin is that the British added a little silver to the alloy, rather than just copper - which was standard practice at the time, and that’s why it has a little yellowish to it. Marsh died before he could really research the Jubilee series for varieties. There are many as you know from the past couple of Marsh/Hill books that were updated with Iverson’s research. 

I do agree with your attribution. 


 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by Zebo
ClRity

[Boo60]

Thanks Zebo. 😊

[Cozdred]

On 8/21/2023 at 4:10 PM, Boo60 said:

Hi all,

I have an 1887 MS61 gold sovereign graded by NGC. I am sure this is a Marsh rarity (Hooked J DISH 4) and I have seen some gold coins that have the Marsh rarity number on the slab when graded by NGC. How do you send a slabbed coin in for checking when it comes to a Marsh rarity like this? I assume I select Variety plus on the form, but how do I indicate the Marsh code and do I select the reholder option? Can I send this in with other coins or does it have to be on a separate form?

A picture of the rarity is attached.

Thanks in advance. 

Hi Boo60,

   I don't get on Chat very often, so as usual I'm late for this topic.  But, I do have valuable information to offer, so I will add it late now!  

Although I've only been collecting gold sovs for 2 years, I decided early on to specialize in the DISH varieties of the Jubilee Head series.  I've corresponded with Steve Hill several times, and he was even nice enough to send me a signed copy of the 2017 Iverson collection booklet which he helped put together.  Early on, Iverson and Hill decided to assume that 6 different obverse dies existed for the hooked J version minted in London sovs 1887.  I believe this came about based on their research into the Melbourne and Sydney varieties.  Originally only L1 and L2 were identified, however by the time the 2017 booklet was published L3 and L4 had been discovered.  Just this past summer, I am fairly certain that I have discovered L5 and L6, and I've had some discussions with Steve about L5 without yet reaching agreement.  Since when I started I did not have the 2017 booklet, I was curious to know what L3 and L4 look like, and Steve was kind enough to send me his personal copies of those images.  Now, when I compare the printed image of L4 (2017) with the image he sent, I'm convinced that these are two separate dies.  Currently I think of them as L4a and L4b, however if my analysis proves to be correct I would expect L4b to eventually be called DISH-L7.  Just speculation at this time.  As of today, I've seen a few examples of L4b and would classify it as R5 rarity, however I've never seen any other example of L4a, and would therefore classify it as R7.  

Anyway, looking at the image you posted, I would say you have a very good match to the more common L4b,  If you compare it to the L4a image in the 2017 booklet, I think you will note significant differences, as I have.

Now for the bad news...  I've submitted quite a few examples of DISH coins to NGC in order to get the correct Marsh and DISH numbers added to the label.  I added the info in the Variety Plus section of the submission form as, for example, "Marsh 125B - DISH L3".  You have to request a grading tier for this, since the grader has to examine the coin and verify the variety.  So my understanding is that you cannot just ask for reholder.  Since all varieties are different, you can submit this with other world gold coins if you like.  I usually submit 5 or 6 DISH varieties on the same sheet, each with different numbers.  What I've found is that NGC currently does NOT recognize DISH varieties at all, and also do not recognize Marsh numbers for the Jubilee Head series.  They completely ignore DISH numbers, however they will add Marsh numbers to the holder, but NOT as part of the coin description. Instead, they put the Marsh number at the bottom as part of the Pedigree of the coin.  This is extremely disappointing.  PCGS does recognize Marsh numbers as part of the coin description, which puts them ahead currently IMO.  But at least having the correct Marsh number somewhere on the coin holder is helpful, so currently I settle for that. 

Many months ago I submitted a request to have a new category of Jubilee Head gold sovs by Marsh variety, and this was rejected.  Was told to enter it as a Custom Set.  NGC is desperately trying to avoid recognizing DISH varieties since this will cause major headaches with their database management.  Again PCGS is ahead of them since they do have competitive categories for Marsh Jubilee varieties.  

Another interesting quirk of both NGC and PCGS is that they will NOT guarantee accuracy for varieties. PCGS is notoriously poor when assigning gold sov varieties -- among other collectors I know they are considered a joke. So I'm not sure that NGC even checks them very carefully.  If you were to send in a coin with a hooked J and ask the grader to determine the variety, I'm not sure they would do that.  I can't say for certain, since I always send in the desired Marsh number with the submission.  The reason I think that they don't really pay much attention to the variety is because one time I had to "guess" the variety of a coin for which I didn't have a high res image.  On the submission form I entered "Marsh 125 - DISH L1" and asked for high res PhotoVision image.  When I saw the image it was clear I'd made a mistake, and the coin was actually Marsh 125C - DISH L4.  However, even with the PhotoVision image in hand, the grader still returned the coin with Marsh 125 on the pedigree part of the label.  They just put down what was on the submission sheet, probably without checking.  Why bother, since they don't guarantee accuracy anyway?

Hope this info helps!  If you've already sent the coin in, with DISH L4 requested, I would expect that was ignored based on my experience.  If you requested Marsh 125C, I would expect that got returned on the label as pedigree. And if you just asked the grader to determine the variety for you, I expect that was denied.  So please post what occurred so I can see if I have guessed correctly!  

By the way, I'm rather stunned that your coin was graded MS61.  Based on the wear patterns on both sides, along with the significant amount of dirt built up in the denticles, it's very obvious that this coin saw a good deal of actual circulation.  Coins sitting in mint bags or bank vaults don't get dirty!  I would grade the coin AU55, maybe AU58 if I was in a good mood  So you're lucky you didn't get me as the grader that day!

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Cozdred
Add comment about assigned grade

[Hoghead515]

On 8/22/2023 at 5:19 AM, Boo60 said:

Hi Zebo. Yes sorry L4. More images attached. I will contact them thanks. 

Beautiful coin. Very nice. 

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 11/7/2023 at 5:49 PM, Cozdred said:

Now for the bad news...  I've submitted quite a few examples of DISH coins to NGC in order to get the correct Marsh and DISH numbers added to the label.  I added the info in the Variety Plus section of the submission form as, for example, "Marsh 125B - DISH L3".  You have to request a grading tier for this, since the grader has to examine the coin and verify the variety.  So my understanding is that you cannot just ask for reholder.  Since all varieties are different, you can submit this with other world gold coins if you like.  I usually submit 5 or 6 DISH varieties on the same sheet, each with different numbers.  What I've found is that NGC currently does NOT recognize DISH varieties at all, and also do not recognize Marsh numbers for the Jubilee Head series.  They completely ignore DISH numbers, however they will add Marsh numbers to the holder, but NOT as part of the coin description. Instead, they put the Marsh number at the bottom as part of the Pedigree of the coin.  This is extremely disappointing.  PCGS does recognize Marsh numbers as part of the coin description, which puts them ahead currently IMO.  But at least having the correct Marsh number somewhere on the coin holder is helpful, so currently I settle for that. 

Many months ago I submitted a request to have a new category of Jubilee Head gold sovs by Marsh variety, and this was rejected.  Was told to enter it as a Custom Set.  NGC is desperately trying to avoid recognizing DISH varieties since this will cause major headaches with their database management.  Again PCGS is ahead of them since they do have competitive categories for Marsh Jubilee varieties.  

Another interesting quirk of both NGC and PCGS is that they will NOT guarantee accuracy for varieties. PCGS is notoriously poor when assigning gold sov varieties -- among other collectors I know they are considered a joke. So I'm not sure that NGC even checks them very carefully.  If you were to send in a coin with a hooked J and ask the grader to determine the variety, I'm not sure they would do that.  I can't say for certain, since I always send in the desired Marsh number with the submission.  The reason I think that they don't really pay much attention to the variety is because one time I had to "guess" the variety of a coin for which I didn't have a high res image.  On the submission form I entered "Marsh 125 - DISH L1" and asked for high res PhotoVision image.  When I saw the image it was clear I'd made a mistake, and the coin was actually Marsh 125C - DISH L4.  However, even with the PhotoVision image in hand, the grader still returned the coin with Marsh 125 on the pedigree part of the label.  They just put down what was on the submission sheet, probably without checking.  Why bother, since they don't guarantee accuracy anyway?

Generally correct, there's not enough money in world varieties for TPG's to justify getting any more involved with them than they already are. It stinks, but that's the facts. 

For a pedigree they are going to put down whatever you write on the form essentially, right or wrong. It's doubtful the graders ever looked at a PhotoVision image of the coin, why would they? They are only going to look at varieties they currently recognize when asked (paid) to on the submission form. Database management is an expense and the money isn't there for them to open the flood gates in terms of additional varieties, if you're talking about pop reports I don't think that is much of a factor since they are a mess anyway. 

[Zebo]

On 11/7/2023 at 5:49 PM, Cozdred said:

Hi Boo60,

   I don't get on Chat very often, so as usual I'm late for this topic.  But, I do have valuable information to offer, so I will add it late now!  

Although I've only been collecting gold sovs for 2 years, I decided early on to specialize in the DISH varieties of the Jubilee Head series.  I've corresponded with Steve Hill several times, and he was even nice enough to send me a signed copy of the 2017 Iverson collection booklet which he helped put together.  Early on, Iverson and Hill decided to assume that 6 different obverse dies existed for the hooked J version minted in London sovs 1887.  I believe this came about based on their research into the Melbourne and Sydney varieties.  Originally only L1 and L2 were identified, however by the time the 2017 booklet was published L3 and L4 had been discovered.  Just this past summer, I am fairly certain that I have discovered L5 and L6, and I've had some discussions with Steve about L5 without yet reaching agreement.  Since when I started I did not have the 2017 booklet, I was curious to know what L3 and L4 look like, and Steve was kind enough to send me his personal copies of those images.  Now, when I compare the printed image of L4 (2017) with the image he sent, I'm convinced that these are two separate dies.  Currently I think of them as L4a and L4b, however if my analysis proves to be correct I would expect L4b to eventually be called DISH-L7.  Just speculation at this time.  As of today, I've seen a few examples of L4b and would classify it as R5 rarity, however I've never seen any other example of L4a, and would therefore classify it as R7.  

Anyway, looking at the image you posted, I would say you have a very good match to the more common L4b,  If you compare it to the L4a image in the 2017 booklet, I think you will note significant differences, as I have.

Now for the bad news...  I've submitted quite a few examples of DISH coins to NGC in order to get the correct Marsh and DISH numbers added to the label.  I added the info in the Variety Plus section of the submission form as, for example, "Marsh 125B - DISH L3".  You have to request a grading tier for this, since the grader has to examine the coin and verify the variety.  So my understanding is that you cannot just ask for reholder.  Since all varieties are different, you can submit this with other world gold coins if you like.  I usually submit 5 or 6 DISH varieties on the same sheet, each with different numbers.  What I've found is that NGC currently does NOT recognize DISH varieties at all, and also do not recognize Marsh numbers for the Jubilee Head series.  They completely ignore DISH numbers, however they will add Marsh numbers to the holder, but NOT as part of the coin description. Instead, they put the Marsh number at the bottom as part of the Pedigree of the coin.  This is extremely disappointing.  PCGS does recognize Marsh numbers as part of the coin description, which puts them ahead currently IMO.  But at least having the correct Marsh number somewhere on the coin holder is helpful, so currently I settle for that. 

Many months ago I submitted a request to have a new category of Jubilee Head gold sovs by Marsh variety, and this was rejected.  Was told to enter it as a Custom Set.  NGC is desperately trying to avoid recognizing DISH varieties since this will cause major headaches with their database management.  Again PCGS is ahead of them since they do have competitive categories for Marsh Jubilee varieties.  

Another interesting quirk of both NGC and PCGS is that they will NOT guarantee accuracy for varieties. PCGS is notoriously poor when assigning gold sov varieties -- among other collectors I know they are considered a joke. So I'm not sure that NGC even checks them very carefully.  If you were to send in a coin with a hooked J and ask the grader to determine the variety, I'm not sure they would do that.  I can't say for certain, since I always send in the desired Marsh number with the submission.  The reason I think that they don't really pay much attention to the variety is because one time I had to "guess" the variety of a coin for which I didn't have a high res image.  On the submission form I entered "Marsh 125 - DISH L1" and asked for high res PhotoVision image.  When I saw the image it was clear I'd made a mistake, and the coin was actually Marsh 125C - DISH L4.  However, even with the PhotoVision image in hand, the grader still returned the coin with Marsh 125 on the pedigree part of the label.  They just put down what was on the submission sheet, probably without checking.  Why bother, since they don't guarantee accuracy anyway?

Hope this info helps!  If you've already sent the coin in, with DISH L4 requested, I would expect that was ignored based on my experience.  If you requested Marsh 125C, I would expect that got returned on the label as pedigree. And if you just asked the grader to determine the variety for you, I expect that was denied.  So please post what occurred so I can see if I have guessed correctly!  

By the way, I'm rather stunned that your coin was graded MS61.  Based on the wear patterns on both sides, along with the significant amount of dirt built up in the denticles, it's very obvious that this coin saw a good deal of actual circulation.  Coins sitting in mint bags or bank vaults don't get dirty!  I would grade the coin AU55, maybe AU58 if I was in a good mood  So you're lucky you didn't get me as the grader that day!

 

Good information. Too bad about the dish registry request. That would open further discussion. Without seeing the images you speak of, what do you believe the difference is in what you call L4a and L4b?  You peak my interest!

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/8/2023 at 10:17 AM, Zebo said:

.... You peak my interest!

[FWIW:  Pique/piqued... You piqued my interest!]   

[Zebo]

On 11/10/2023 at 2:00 PM, Henri Charriere said:

[FWIW:  Pique/piqued... You piqued my interest!]   

That’s Southern Ebonics.