Came from unopened 1800’s coin roll never circulated or cleaned. Thoughts? 2 2

[Traghan]

Any advice appreciated 

[Greenstang]

It is a nice uncirculated Morgan but it is certainly not a MS70 ( I don’t know of any Morgan that is). 
and I can’t see any sign of a Lamination error. Not sure where somebody got that info from.

[ldhair]

Nice coin. I don't believe it is even close to DMPL. 

[Jason Abshier]

Typical average Morgan dollar nothing to write back home about … definitely NOT DMPL , and definitely NOT MS70 ! 
 

more like MS63ish ? A lot of bag mark rubs all over the cheek and some nicks in field (from being in mint bags for long time) I’d grade it at 62/63 at the most…. Whoever sold you that coin saying it’s DMPL then write MS70 in lower corner didn’t know hoot what they were selling or writing on that 2x2 flip although nice coin and no I wouldn’t send this in for grading I’d keep raw I highly doubt that came from an original “ROLL”

Edited August 10, 2023 by Jason Abshier

[Sandon]

   It's highly unlikely that this 1883-CC Morgan dollar came from an "unopened 1800's coin roll."  According to Q. David Bowers, the vast majority of the original 1,204,000 mintage of these coins was stored for decades in the Treasury Building in Washington, D.C. in one-thousand-coin bags, with releases of significant numbers of bags in 1938-39 and again in the 1950s. When, in 1964, the Treasury stopped paying out silver dollars at face value, 755,518 of the 1883-CCs remained in the Treasury, about 62.75% of the original mintage. These and other Carson City Morgan dollars were placed in plastic holders and sold in a series of sales by the General Services Administration between 1972 and 1980.  Bowers, Silver Dollars and Trade Dollars of the United States, Vol. 2 at 2350-51 (1993). Your coin was in all likelihood either from one of the earlier releases of bags or was removed from a GSA holder.

   The heavy scrapes on Liberty's cheek and the eagle's breast probably limit the grade to MS 61 or 62. There is no such thing as an "MS 70" 1878-1921 Morgan dollar. The coin is frosty as are most, not at all prooflike, much less "DMPL" (deep mirror prooflike).  I see no lamination or other "error" either, only some light die cracks as are found on most of these coins. Whoever wrote these representations on the coin's holder was being less than honest.  The coin has a current and inflated since the pandemic retail list value of approximately $300. 

[RWB]

The only "LAM" error I can see is the one where a buyer accepted the 2x2 scribbles as truthful. In that case it was a "Lam to the slaughter."

18th century US banks rarely wrapped coins. They were usually received in bags then broken into smaller quantities for use by paying tellers. Small paper envelopes were commonly used.

[PS: The coin is MS-60 or 61, probably pulled from a GSA sale holder or plio envelope. The photos show no evidence of "proof-like" surfaces.]

Edited August 10, 2023 by RWB

[Traghan]

A few more from these rolls. I don’t know fully about everything, but I trust Heritage in helping with them all & its many & they seem to know what those time frame coins should be like etc. I definitely am learning. But I’ll post a few more. Thank you all!

[Traghan]

[Traghan]

[Traghan]

[Traghan]

On 8/10/2023 at 8:52 AM, Sandon said:

   It's highly unlikely that this 1883-CC Morgan dollar came from an "unopened 1800's coin roll."  According to Q. David Bowers, the vast majority of the original 1,204,000 mintage of these coins was stored for decades in the Treasury Building in Washington, D.C. in one-thousand-coin bags, with releases of significant numbers of bags in 1938-39 and again in the 1950s. When, in 1964, the Treasury stopped paying out silver dollars at face value, 755,518 of the 1883-CCs remained in the Treasury, about 62.75% of the original mintage. These and other Carson City Morgan dollars were placed in plastic holders and sold in a series of sales by the General Services Administration between 1972 and 1980.  Bowers, Silver Dollars and Trade Dollars of the United States, Vol. 2 at 2350-51 (1993). Your coin was in all likelihood either from one of the earlier releases of bags or was removed from a GSA holder.

   The heavy scrapes on Liberty's cheek and the eagle's breast probably limit the grade to MS 61 or 62. There is no such thing as an "MS 70" 1878-1921 Morgan dollar. The coin is frosty as are most, not at all prooflike, much less "DMPL" (deep mirror prooflike).  I see no lamination or other "error" either, only some light die cracks as are found on most of these coins. Whoever wrote these representations on the coin's holder was being less than honest.  The coin has a current and inflated since the pandemic retail list value of approximately $300. 

 

[Traghan]

All I can say is that it was definitely unopened. The rolls were opened by me & were legit, the man passed about 7 years ago & I bought the rolls from auction & they had never left his safe & I can attest to that because I didn’t open them till after the pandemic, I almost passed away due to Covid. It was a legit estate sale & the CC was real & surprised me as well. I don’t know a lot so I’m going to let Heritage help figure it out as to why. But, thank you for helping me understand, I enjoy this hobby and all those passionate about it. I’ve done this my whole life though & promise it’s not a scam which is sad at how much that’s going around. I hate it & coin collecting is hurting because of it. I appreciate your input! God bless 

[Traghan]

On 8/10/2023 at 10:09 AM, RWB said:

The only "LAM" error I can see is the one where a buyer accepted the 2x2 scribbles as truthful. In that case it was a "Lam to the slaughter."

18th century US banks rarely wrapped coins. They were usually received in bags then broken into smaller quantities for use by paying tellers. Small paper envelopes were commonly used.

It was legit rolls. I promise. I’ve done this long enough to know & I can trace it for Heritage. The man who passed estate was legit. Thank you for your input 

[Traghan]

On 8/10/2023 at 10:09 AM, RWB said:

The only "LAM" error I can see is the one where a buyer accepted the 2x2 scribbles as truthful. In that case it was a "Lam to the slaughter."

18th century US banks rarely wrapped coins. They were usually received in bags then broken into smaller quantities for use by paying tellers. Small paper envelopes were commonly used.

All I can say is that it was definitely unopened. The rolls were opened by me & were legit, the man passed about 7 years ago & I bought the rolls from auction & they had never left his safe & I can attest to that because I didn’t open them till after the pandemic, I almost passed away due to Covid. It was a legit estate sale & the CC was real & surprised me as well. I don’t know a lot so I’m going to let Heritage help figure it out as to why. But, thank you for helping me understand, I enjoy this hobby and all those passionate about it. I’ve done this my whole life though & promise it’s not a scam which is sad at how much that’s going around. I hate it & coin collecting is hurting because of it. I appreciate your input! God bless 

[Hoghead515]

Nice finds. I really love that second trade dollar you shared.

[RWB]

On 8/10/2023 at 11:43 AM, Traghan said:

All I can say is that it was definitely unopened. The rolls were opened by me & were legit, the man passed about 7 years ago & I bought the rolls from auction & they had never left his safe & I can attest to that because I didn’t open them till after the pandemic, I almost passed away due to Covid. It was a legit estate sale & the CC was real & surprised me as well. I don’t know a lot so I’m going to let Heritage help figure it out as to why. But, thank you for helping me understand, I enjoy this hobby and all those passionate about it. I’ve done this my whole life though & promise it’s not a scam which is sad at how much that’s going around. I hate it & coin collecting is hurting because of it. I appreciate your input! God bless 

They might have been in paper rolls, but not likely they were from the 19th century. (I was referring specifically to your 1883-CC dollar. Others have been in circulation a little or polished - like your 1904-O.

Edited August 10, 2023 by RWB

[Sandon]

   Although all of the coins posted on this topic appear to be genuine, most of those posted after the 1883-CC dollar appear to have been "cleaned", some of them harshly.  This was a widespread practice during the 1950s, 60s and 70s, when the rolls and other pieces you bought from the estate were likely assembled. (The 1883-O and 1885-O Morgan dollars appear to be original, typical uncirculated (MS 60-63) pieces of these common dates, likely from the literally millions of such pieces that were paid out by the Treasury during the early 1960s.) Unfortunately, such "cleaned" pieces are now considered to be undesirable by most serious collectors, will not be numerically graded by grading services, and trade at a discount.  I'm sure that the personnel of a major numismatic firm such as Heritage will confirm these facts.

   If you purchased these coins a while back for a reasonable price, you may still come out ahead, as most coin prices have gone up a good bit over the last few years. However, it is always preferable to learn how to grade and otherwise evaluate coins before you spend much on them, especially on uncertified pieces.  

[MorganMan]

For comparison, here is an 1883 CC Graded MS65 Proof like, not even DMPL. Now compare this to yours.

ETA: I would say yours is an MS63.

 

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by MorganMan

[Mike Meenderink]

Those are all nice coins. Some may be flipped and labeled a bit generously but overall I like what I saw. Common or not.

[Henri Charriere]

• I see an unfortunate choice of words being used. You state ""roll," singular, the "1800's" as well as "never circulated" and "never cleaned." And "unopened".

Two-by two flips, I believe, were not available in the late 19th Century, so any inscriptions on them could not have been made by the deceased or his or her heirs unless the roll (singular) was re-opened.

You have chosen to post no more than a dozen coins which begs the question; Where are the others and what conditions are they in? Your topic mentions a single roll including two half-dollars and two Trade Dollars, but seamlessly yields to two rolls.  Unopened roll(s) suggest unsearched rolls and I have never encountered a mixed, unsearched rolls of varying conditions and denominations, particularly where a claim of unopened and uncleaned roll(s) have not been unsearched,

It's in Heritage  Auction's hands now so any routine cross-examination is up to them which includes determining provenance and resolving the mystery of why coins in mixed series and wildly different conditions were chosen to reside in a coin roll along with those represented as being MS-70 and DMPL (minus formal certification).

You have managed to snag a truly magnificent coin residing amongst the others.  I would have retained that one, and sold, or auctioned off the rest.

 

 

Edited August 13, 2023 by Henri Charriere
Elaboration; correct misspellings.

[Traghan]

On 8/10/2023 at 10:45 AM, Hoghead515 said:

Nice finds. I really love that second trade dollar you shared.

Thanks

[Traghan]

Thank everyone for their advice & input it’s greatly appreciated! Thank you guys 

[VKurtB]

Not unopened. Perhaps unopened by anyone you know of, but that's all. In the 1880's, there weren't rolls like there are today. One of the biggest lies circulated in coins today is "unopened". Even worse are "unopened, still sealed" proof sets. THEY NEVER WERE SEALED by the Mint! Only a later owner who knew there was nothing special about a set licked the gum and sealed the set. Don't be a chump. Con men are EVERYWHERE in this hobby.

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/14/2023 at 4:56 PM, VKurtB said:

Not unopened....One of the biggest lies circulated in coins today is "unopened"....

The BIGGEST lie is "unsearched."  In second place is "unopened."   Truly unsearched and unopened rolls are those packaged by the Mint (or those contracted by the Mint, or one of its branches) which contain uncirculated coins of a particular date and denomination distinguishable by their crimped ends.  

The term "unsearched" is used exclusively by dealers to market their merchandise; banks never make that claim.

[Conder101]

On 8/14/2023 at 4:56 PM, VKurtB said:

Even worse are "unopened, still sealed" proof sets. THEY NEVER WERE SEALED by the Mint!

The only time they were sealed by the mint was if you purchased a single set they would sometimes seal it, address it, and mail it to you directly.  I have seen a few sets like that.  But yes the VAST majority of the sets were never sealed by the Mint.

[VKurtB]

On 9/4/2023 at 4:26 AM, Conder101 said:

The only time they were sealed by the mint was if you purchased a single set they would sometimes seal it, address it, and mail it to you directly.  I have seen a few sets like that.  But yes the VAST majority of the sets were never sealed by the Mint.

Especially early flat set years - 1956 comes to mind. I have an addressed and stamped and mailed 1951 box set. 
 

Edited September 4, 2023 by VKurtB

[Hoghead515]

On 9/4/2023 at 11:52 AM, VKurtB said:

Especially early flat set years - 1956 comes to mind. I have an addressed and stamped and mailed 1951 box set. 
 

Wonder how many of those were stolen from the mail back in the day. It has STEAL ME written all over it. Seems people were a little more honest in those days but Im sure there were still plenty of crooks. That was quite a bit of money in that box for most in 1951.

Edited September 4, 2023 by Hoghead515

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/13/2023 at 11:08 AM, Traghan said:

Thank everyone for their advice & input it’s greatly appreciated! Thank you guys 

Just curious...who is saying they are from an "unopened roll" -- not Heritage, right ? 

[RWB]

On 8/10/2023 at 11:43 AM, Traghan said:

All I can say is that it was definitely unopened.

Coins were not usually rolled in the 19th or early 20th centuries. Your description does not match the most likely scenario. 1940's is more probable.

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/4/2023 at 12:08 PM, Hoghead515 said:

Wonder how many of those were stolen from the mail back in the day. It has STEAL ME written all over it. Seems people were a little more honest in those days but Im sure there were still plenty of crooks. That was quite a bit of money in that box for most in 1951.

It may seem that way today, but back in the 1960's, if I am not mistaken, the price of proof sets were $2.10 or $2.40.