Very skeptical about Sending My coins to NGC. 2 2

[CoinMarshall]

Well I have an 1835 bust half dollar, it's in MS Condition, it's a beautiful coin.. but I have become very skeptical about sending my coins in for grading to NGC... and here is an example why.. and the problem I have.. is this Coin right here... from the heartland collection, it's an 1835 bust half dollar.. November 30, 2004, Lot 1398. 'Lilac and gold toning  this Coin was graded a MS 66....  Now here is my coin... My Coin is in way better MS Condition.. this Coin is a MS 66... so this is the problem I have right now.. so if I send this in.. and they grade my Coin lower than this Coin... you see the problem I'm having my friends. 

[Fenntucky Mike]

Your coin is not on par with the other, it's missing a lot of the detail in the cap, hair, and most of the stars. It also has a weird look to it, may be it's the photo, maybe cleaned, maybe fake, possibly both. I would be skeptical as well. Of the coin.

[Henri Charriere]

What you are experiencing is commonly called a visceral "what if" anticipatory retaliatory act.  You have nothing to fear, but fear ltself. I would submit the coin and allow it to stand alone on its own merits. (Incidentally, the lilac and gold toning, per se, are not grading considerations.) While difficult to tell, I see stronger attributes in your coin (strike, preservation) and eye appeal. Also, in the future, it's best when eliciting feedback to produce a photo depicting both sides, at a minimum.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Henri Charriere
Add closed parenthesis.

[CoinMarshall]

On 7/31/2023 at 5:35 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Your coin is not on par with the other, it's missing a lot of the detail in the cap, hair, and most of the stars. It also has a weird look to it, may be it's the photo, maybe cleaned, maybe fake, possibly both. I would be skeptical as well. Of the coin.

Lol.. the coin in the heartland collection is missing way more detail in the coin, The Eagles feathers are not detailed and crisp.. missing letters in pluribus Unum, My coin has all detail.. the Stars, and cap are fully detailed... it's the way I was holding the coin. Not cleaned... I purchased this Coin from a trusted collector with thousands of trusted buyers. 

[J P M]

I would remove the coin from the 2x2 take a photo of both sides and repost it here. The members will give you there best honest opinion on the grade if the shots are acceptable to do that.

[CoinMarshall]

On 7/31/2023 at 5:35 AM, Henri Charriere said:

What you are experiencing is commonly called a visceral "what if" anticipatory retaliatory act.  You have nothing to fear, but fear ltself. I would submit the coin and allow it to stand alone on its own merits. (Incidentally, the lilac and gold toning, per se, are not grading considerations.) While difficult to tell, I see stronger attributes in your coin (strike, preservation) and eye appeal. Also, in the future, it's best when eliciting feedback to produce a photo depicting both sides, at a minimum.

Yes.. you have a strong point, I may be over thinking and analyzing a bit. Maybe I should just send them in.. and see the outcome, I felt this was necessary, in order to prove my point,  because this has also happened to a friend of mine, and I feel the grading can be one sided and most have their own opinions on Coin grading. 

[J P M]

On 7/31/2023 at 7:21 AM, CoinMarshall said:

Yes.. you have a strong point, I may be over thinking and analyzing a bit. Maybe I should just send them in.. and see the outcome, I felt this was necessary, in order to prove my point,  because this has also happened to a friend of mine, and I feel the grading can be one sided and most have their own opinions on Coin grading. 

That is all that coin grading is,........a opinion... When you send a coin in it is looked at buy more than one grader. But posting here first helps you get a better idea from collectors of you coins worth . 

[CoinMarshall]

On 7/31/2023 at 6:14 AM, J P M said:

I would remove the coin from the 2x2 take a photo of both sides and repost it here. The members will give you there best honest opinion on the grade if the shots are acceptable to do that.

Good idea... here it is...

[berlineagle]

AU, and also looks cleaned. Sorry.

[zadok]

On 7/31/2023 at 7:46 AM, CoinMarshall said:

Good idea... here it is...

...not a mint state coin n most likely altered surfaces....

[Mike Meenderink]

I am very sorry to tell you but that coin has been cleaned. The surface characteristics are indicative of a an over dipped coin (small cleaned pitting holes). It also has cleaning marks near all the stains. It's a nice details coin but it has been improperly cleaned. Sorry 

Edited July 31, 2023 by Mike Meenderink

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/31/2023 at 7:13 AM, CoinMarshall said:

Not cleaned... I purchased this Coin from a trusted collector with thousands of trusted buyers. 

Let the seller tell you or better yet GET IT IN WRITING that the coin was not cleaned and he will reimburse you if a TPG says it was in fact cleaned.

Lots of "trusted collectors" either don't know (and get it wrong) or do know AND LIE about a coin's condition.  Sometimes they just get it wrong because they are fooled.

But if you paid a nice premium for this coin and was told it wasn't cleaned and was AU or MS, you should have recourse to get your money back IMO if the guy is as "trusted" and legit as you say he is.

Good Luck ! 

[Just Bob]

On 7/31/2023 at 4:37 AM, CoinMarshall said:

Well I have an 1835 bust half dollar, it's in MS Condition, it's a beautiful coin.... My Coin is in way better MS Condition.. 

 

On 7/31/2023 at 6:13 AM, CoinMarshall said:

Lol.. the coin in the heartland collection is missing way more detail in the coin, The Eagles feathers are not detailed and crisp.. missing letters in pluribus Unum, My coin has all detail.. the Stars, and cap are fully detailed... it's the way I was holding the coin. Not cleaned... I purchased this Coin from a trusted collector with thousands of trusted buyers. 

First off - Welcome to the forum.

In your above posts, you compared the strike of the Heartland Collection coin to yours. While it is true that your coin appears to be more fully struck, this is only one of many criteria for determining the grade of a coin. For Mint State coins, other factors to consider are: luster, the number, size and location of contact marks, and eye appeal. However, your coin is showing wear in several places, which removes it entirely from the category of Mint State. The most obvious wear is on the top of Liberty's cap, the high points of the strands of hair, and the bust, on the obverse. On the reverse, look at the tops of the eagle's wings, the claws, and the beak and head. But, for the sake of argument, let's assume that the wear was not there. You believe your coin to be a higher grade than MS66. There are numerous tics, dings, and hits scattered over both sides. There are prominent marks on the cheek, cap, bust, clothing, and in the fields in front of and behind the portrait. There are many more on the reverse. Even without the obvious wear, these marks would put your coin in the lower MS range, and nowhere near MS66. Your coin also appears to have suspicious looking parallel lines on both sides. I have to agree with the above posts by Zadok and others. I have a feeling that it would come back from the grading service with an "altered surfaces" designation.

These are probably not the responses you hoped to get, but they are honest opinions from members, some of whom are very knowledgeable.

[VKurtB]

The stars on your piece are inferior. The hair detail is inferior. The cap is inferior. Yes, the reverse on yours is better.

[Sandon]

      Your situation is a good example of why it is important to learn about the coins you want to collect, their grading, and what they are supposed to look like before you spend money buying them.  This is especially true if you are buying uncertified coins.  Your 1835 Capped Bust half dollar has been harshly "cleaned" and has high point wear.  If you sent it to a grading service, the best grade you could hope for is "AU Details, Cleaned". NGC might classify the coin as having an "altered surface" and not encapsulate it.  

   Regarding coins that have been "cleaned"--really, coins whose surfaces have been affected by abrasives and/or chemicals--see my Custom Registry Set entitled "Characteristics of Cleaned Coins", which depicts and describes certified coins from my own collection that were "details" graded as "cleaned" or in a few cases were "straight" graded but in my experienced opinion were "cleaned".  Characteristics of "Cleaned" Coins - Custom Set (collectors-society.com). You can also use the links shown on the pages depicting the individual coins to link into my competitive sets, which include "straight" graded pieces for comparison. There is a limit to what you can see in photographs, but it's a start.

   You also need to distinguish between striking characteristics and circulation wear. Capped Bust, lettered edge half dollars were struck on hand operated screw presses in "open" collars with dies prepared from individual punches for the devices, letters, numbers and stars. Many are weakly struck or struck from worn or improperly prepared dies that don't show such details as the star centers even on uncirculated, uncleaned coins such as that shown in the "Heartland Collection" piece in your initial post. The introduction late in 1836 of "hubbed" dies, close collars and steam powered presses for the Capped Bust, reeded edge half dollars resulted in a more consistent product, but striking characteristics and die wear can cause coins to vary widely in appearance to this day.

   You should endeavor to attend coin shows and other venues where you can study authenticated, professionally graded examples of these coins and speak with experienced collectors and dealers. It's a time-consuming process, but it is also enjoyable and worthwhile.

   

[Henri Charriere]

Submit it and post the results.  All else is conjecture.  [Never in my entire life have I seen a cerified coin, whose lettering reads E PLU--BUS UNUM -- the R and I completely oblierated, bestowed with the lofty, Mint State-66 grade. You live, you learn.]

[Coinbuf]

It sounds like you already know you have a problem coin, you are blaming the TPG before you even send the coin in and get the result.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Coinbuf

[RWB]

Extremely Fine for wear, but badly polished, cleaned and with considerable damage/roughness in the obverse field. If this was bought from "a trusted collector with thousands of trusted buyers," then your faith (and theirs ) has been placed in a charlatan. If your coin is typical of what this "trusted collector" as been delivering to "thousands of trusted buyers" then ALL of you have been scammed. You are a victim of this so-called "trusted collector."

Absolutely demand a refund. The coin, as pictured, is not saleable to any legitimate bust half collector, and no major grading company (ANACS, PCGS, NGC) will slab it with a grade.

Edited July 31, 2023 by RWB

[MorganMan]

Something just does not look right about that coin. For one, the nose does not have the right proportions to me.  Maybe it is just the photo.

And like others have said, it has been cleaned, and the surface of the obverse is nowhere near MS quality.

ETA: Actually, the whole face looks wrong. But maybe they used several different dies that year. 

Edited August 1, 2023 by MorganMan

[Henri Charriere]

To the OP:  In your Topic heading, you make reference to coins, plural.  What other coins do you have that you may have questions about that you wouldn't mind sharing?  You might not get the answers you were hoping for, but the information elicited may be of invaluable assistance to others.

[CoinMarshall]

On 8/1/2023 at 6:51 AM, Henri Charriere said:

To the OP:  In your Topic heading, you make reference to coins, plural.  What other coins do you have that you may have questions about that you wouldn't mind sharing?  You might not get the answers you were hoping for, but the information elicited may be of invaluable assistance to others.

  Its not a problem.... if most collectors are say AU.... also Cleaned, then most likely it was.. I also recently.. acquired an 1885 cc Morgan Silver dollar, another 1878 s Morgan, 1942 Walking liberty.. but thankfully the other three were not from the same Seller.

[VKurtB]

Even less than stellar sellers have not MADE the coins they sell, in most cases. Some merely don't have the detailed KNOWLEDGE that a serious experienced collector does. I'd put my knowledge up against the MAJORITY of coin dealers. Also my sick a-$-$ sense of humor. This hobby is supposed to be fun. But it's hard to keep it fun when so many charlatans haunt this hobby.

Edited August 1, 2023 by VKurtB

[CoinMarshall]

On 8/1/2023 at 3:42 PM, VKurtB said:

Even less than stellar sellers have not MADE the coins they sell, in most cases. Some merely don't have the detailed KNOWLEDGE that a serious experienced collector does. I'd put my knowledge up against the MAJORITY of coin dealers. Also my sick a-$-$ sense of humor. This hobby is supposed to be fun. But it's hard to keep it fun when so many charlatans haunt this hobby.

Yeah I couldn't agree more... I'm definitely with you on that.. thankfully I posted this.. it's always good to learn more about this fraud.. and understanding when a coin has been cleaned and messed with. And it's still a very thrilling and fun hobby... I will continue to enjoy it..

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/31/2023 at 7:13 AM, CoinMarshall said:

Not cleaned... I purchased this Coin from a trusted collector with thousands of trusted buyers. 

Take the coin back to your seller and mention our problems with the coin.  See what he says. 

I'd be curious if he would give you your money back or buy it back. 

Edited August 2, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[CoinMarshall]

On 8/1/2023 at 3:42 PM, VKurtB said:

Even less than stellar sellers have not MADE the coins they sell, in most cases. Some merely don't have the detailed KNOWLEDGE that a serious experienced collector does. I'd put my knowledge up against the MAJORITY of coin dealers. Also my sick a-$-$ sense of humor. This hobby is supposed to be fun. But it's hard to keep it fun when so many charlatans haunt this hobby.

What do you think about this Coin VKurtB.... what grade you think it is.. 

[berlineagle]

On 8/2/2023 at 4:52 AM, CoinMarshall said:

What do you think about this Coin VKurtB.... what grade you think it is.. 

I don't think this is real, Fake? Where did you get this? Just doesn't look right. Reverse mint mark and front do not match like coins on coinfacts.

[Rareseeker1]

I may have to agree with berlineagle, fake

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/31/2023 at 7:13 AM, CoinMarshall said:

.... Not cleaned... I purchased this Coin from a trusted collector with thousands of trusted buyers. 

As most members know, I do not relish the thought of passing judgment on other collectors' coins. There is one aspect of this hobby that isn't generally acknowledged and that is while to you and me this is a hobby, there are those whose approach is all business. It is what their chosen livelihoods depends on and if a misjugment was made, the only viable option is passing along a problem coin to others. Some may regard this as despicable. I choose to look at it as an unethical "necessity."

The problem as I see it, is the age and the otherwise admirable condition of a coin neatly 200 years old. You confidently state the coin was not cleaned.  If it were, it would make a difference to me as to when the cleaning was undertaken.  Certainly, no one is pointing a finger to the seller of the coin who sold it to you. Can any collector honestly say the seller committed the desecration, or was simply passing it along? Formal authentication and certification is needed to establish as close as one can come to the truth otherwise you will be preoccupied with things which may or may not be true.  If you feel strongly about the matter, I would approach the seller and review with him the comments made in this column. You've got nothing to lose, and everything to gain. My limited experience suggests a reputable dealer with positive feedback would, at the very least, hear you out.

[RWB]

On 8/2/2023 at 4:52 AM, CoinMarshall said:

What do you think about this Coin VKurtB.... what grade you think it is.. 

Counterfeit.

[VKurtB]

On 8/2/2023 at 3:52 AM, CoinMarshall said:

What do you think about this Coin VKurtB.... what grade you think it is.. 

A) I don’t grade AU-MS coins by photos, as it is always a fool’s errand.

B) I agree that this coin shouldn’t be graded, because it’s authentication is sketchy.