NGC Graded Struck Through without it being on label 1 1

[Tex808]

Just wondering, I have a very obvious struck through and its even captured on the picture provided by NGC when graded. Its an ASE 2023 and the beautiful ST in right on the S in SILVER and you can still make out the S underneath with still a slight raise. The coin is so beautiful and flawless that the error sticks out like sore thumb! So i was graded a MS69 but on the label there is no mention of the Struck Through. Is this common? Is it worth more this way? Should I have it sent back to NGC and label it right? I need guidance. I am a 2 year newbie and this is my first one with an error such as this. Mahalo!

[Sandon]

  Welcome to the NGC chat board. (Edit: For better attention from forum participants, topics of this nature should be posted under the "Newbie Coin Collecting Questions" forum. The NGC Registry forum is for topics pertaining to the Registry.)

   I looked at the enlarged version of the photo of the reverse of this coin on NGC Certificate Verification as well as your photo.  The defect on this coin appears to be the result of a sizeable chip or gouge in the die. (A strikethrough would generally cause a depression in the coin rather than a blob of raised coin metal.)  It is possible that more pieces with this defect will turn up, as the die should have continued to produce coins with this blob until mint workers noticed the problem and retired the die.

   The NGC Frequently Asked Questions page states regarding mint errors NGC will grade that "NGC does not recognize as mint errors those coins with minor die chips, breaks, rotations, etc., which fall within our interpretation of mint tolerance. The determination of what constitutes a mint error is solely at the discretion of NGC." NGC Grading FAQs - Coins Accepted By NGC | NGC (ngccoin.com).  The same rule applies to die varieties, which would be the classification for coins with this defect should a number of them turn up. See What is a Variety? | NGC (ngccoin.com). It is unclear whether NGC would regard this larger chip or gouge as "minor", and it is unusual to see such a die defect on bullion coins, which are supposed to be carefully produced.

  While I personally would find this coin to be less rather than more desirable because of this defect, there may be collectors who would pay some premium because of it whether or not NGC were to recognize it. It really isn't possible to provide a valuation for such an item. There would have to be enough of them for sufficient transactions to occur to establish a market price.

Edited July 8, 2023 by Sandon

[Tex808]

Thank you so much for your wisdom. Your use of the English language is clear and precise. While researching this problem on this site, I came across the information on why or why not the grading would consider it an error or not. I understood that and I understand what you are saying as well. I am going to take a couple pictures that are very close up so that maybe you can see what I see. I don't see a gouge. What I see is a rough indention that has happened on the letter S. The thing that sets it apart is that within that indention you can still see the "raised" letter S. Just not as prominent. I don't believe a gouge would actually leave behind a slightly raised letter. That doesn't seem possible. Correct me if it is.

When I first received the coin from Pinehurst Coins (who actually seems to be the only one on eBay selling these coins with Struck throughs with this particular coin), I was thinking of just how amazingly beautiful the coin was. Then I flipped it over and saw the S. I had never heard of a struck through before and just thought I got a bum deal. Then while researching more, I read that a coin with a "gouge" the size that I have, would have a much lower grade than MS69 and that only in the case of an error would a coin still receive a high MS69 but not a MS70. 

I may be wrong about all of this, and I truly am glad you had responded to me but please if you could just take another look at what I have attached. If you still think its a gouge, then it is a gouge. A gouge that managed to leave being a raised letter S.

I took the best pictures that I could. I believe that the pictures captured what it is we are looking at. Thoughts?

[Fenntucky Mike]

Looks incuse based on the second set of images but I'm not sure what it is, could be a strikethrough. Regardless, NGC wouldn't have done anything unless the submitter ponied up up for the Mint Error add-on service on the submission form. This coin was most likely part of a bulk submission, the submitter has probably never even set eyes on this coin, and it was passed through with the rest of the coins in the submission. I don't think paying to resubmit this as an error would be worth the cost.

[Sandon]

   If the anomaly is incuse, it is probably either a strikethrough or a planchet flaw so deep that the pressure of striking couldn't flatten it out. In either case, it would probably, though not definitely, be regarded as too minor to attribute as a mint error and wouldn't be a die variety, of which enough could exist for someone to promote it as the "weak S" variety and try to create a market for it. Not everything that is unusual has significant market value, and that is likely the case here. You may wish to take the coin to a coin show or other venue (coin shop or coin club meeting) with experienced collectors and/or dealers who could examine it in-person and give you their impressions.

  Strikethroughs are fairly common on U.S. coins of all eras.  I recently posted the following topic on strikethroughs on several examples of a specific die variety of 1856 large cent. No one had thought these significant enough to write about them before, and they command no premium.

 

[Just Bob]

On 7/8/2023 at 3:15 AM, Tex808 said:

Thank you so much for your wisdom. Your use of the English language is clear and precise. While researching this problem on this site, I came across the information on why or why not the grading would consider it an error or not. I understood that and I understand what you are saying as well. I am going to take a couple pictures that are very close up so that maybe you can see what I see. I don't see a gouge. What I see is a rough indention that has happened on the letter S. The thing that sets it apart is that within that indention you can still see the "raised" letter S. Just not as prominent. I don't believe a gouge would actually leave behind a slightly raised letter. That doesn't seem possible. Correct me if it is.

When I first received the coin from Pinehurst Coins (who actually seems to be the only one on eBay selling these coins with Struck throughs with this particular coin), I was thinking of just how amazingly beautiful the coin was. Then I flipped it over and saw the S. I had never heard of a struck through before and just thought I got a bum deal. Then while researching more, I read that a coin with a "gouge" the size that I have, would have a much lower grade than MS69 and that only in the case of an error would a coin still receive a high MS69 but not a MS70. 

I may be wrong about all of this, and I truly am glad you had responded to me but please if you could just take another look at what I have attached. If you still think its a gouge, then it is a gouge. A gouge that managed to leave being a raised letter S.

I took the best pictures that I could. I believe that the pictures captured what it is we are looking at. Thoughts?

 

 

 

I believe there may have been a misunderstanding about what Sandon was saying caused the spot on your coin. Your first picture made it look as though the spot was raised above the surface - a lump, if you will - which would have been the result of a gouge in the die that was used to make your coin. Your response sounded las though you thought he was talking about a gouge in the coin itself. I believe he was talking about a die gouge. A relatively minor issue, but I felt it may be helpful to clear it up for future readers of this thread.

[Tex808]

Thank you for clearing that up. Yea, I took it the wrong way. I wrote Pinehurst Coins where I bought it and they replied stating that this has happens a few times in the past where the grading did not get reflected as any error on the label. The bottom line was if it still could be worth anything more if its not noted on the label or if it would even be wise to resubmit the coin for a second look. Also, the first pictures that I posted were of the pictures taken when graded. The second set was from the coin once in my possession. I truly appreciate everybody on here. No one is judgmental or rude and I find that so very refreshing. Thank You!

[Tex808]

Thank you everyone for your input. I won't send it back in and yes it was most likely a bulk submission. The coin company has at least 20 Strike Throughs for sale from that bulk submission. I live on an island with no real coin dealers or a place I can go for help, so I appreciate everything!

[VKurtB]

Perhaps a hairy nevus?

[powermad5000]

The submitter paid for the Early Releases designation and requested the flag label. Typically to get the Early Releases designation, the coins must be submitted within a timeframe to NGC that expires for coins sent to them after the deadline, so most of the ASE's with special labels like that are sent in on bulk submission to be able to get the desired labelling. I am confident the submitter most likely never even inspected the coins in the submission and decided to "roll" with whatever label grades came back. It would be an astronomical cost to the submitter to check all the coins in a bulk submission for mint errors which typically do not occur on these coins.

Since I like the coin in the holder to be labelled properly, if it were mine, I would resubmit it and check off for Mint error on the submission form. It is possible whatever object caused that which I believe to be a strike through, that is significant enough to be labelled as a mint error, could have come out of the die striking immediately after your coin, and yours could be the only coin with that feature. Even though all mint errors are unique, I think if the coin were properly labelled as an error, you could get a value above market value for an MS 69 grade label if you were to auction the coin (think eBay).

[EagleRJO]

On 7/8/2023 at 4:15 AM, Tex808 said:

I don't see a gouge. What I see is a rough indention that has happened on the letter S ... you can still see the "raised" letter S

From what you are describing and the close up photos provided, like the attached I used for a comparison, I don't think this is a struck-through error, as in that case the entire letter "S" in "Silver" would likely have been completely obliterated.  I cant think of anything that could end up on the dies which would cause a depression around the entire letter, but permit a part of the letter to show through.

Looks like a minor planchet defect where a piece of the planchet around the "S" flaked off and was missing when the coin was being struck, and the pressure from striking the coin couldn't completely level that out.  Perhaps a little shallower near the top of the "S" as that part was partially struck.

Regardless of if it's a small planchet defect error or a small struck-thru error, the errors are relatively minor so I cant see there being any added value (particularly if a struck-thru where the object on the dies cant be identified), or likely something that NGC would even identify on a label.  So, I cant see a resubmission to NGC being worth it.

On 7/11/2023 at 2:50 AM, Tex808 said:

The coin company has at least 20 Strike Throughs for sale from that bulk submission

That would be interesting to take a look at.  Can you post a link to where to view those coins.

P.S.  If it were my coin that chip or depression at the "S" would likely bug me to the point of exchanging it, even though it is just a bullion coin.

[Tex808]

On 7/14/2023 at 10:20 PM, EagleRJO said:

From what you are describing and the close up photos provided, like the attached I used for a comparison, I don't think this is a struck-through error, as in that case the entire letter "S" in "Silver" would likely have been completely obliterated.  I cant think of anything that could end up on the dies which would cause a depression around the entire letter, but permit a part of the letter to show through.

Looks like a minor planchet defect where a piece of the planchet around the "S" flaked off and was missing when the coin was being struck, and the pressure from striking the coin couldn't completely level that out.  Perhaps a little shallower near the top of the "S" as that part was partially struck.

Regardless of if it's a small planchet defect error or a small struck-thru error, the errors are relatively minor so I cant see there being any added value (particularly if a struck-thru where the object on the dies cant be identified), or likely something that NGC would even identify on a label.  So, I cant see a resubmission to NGC being worth it.

That would be interesting to take a look at.  Can you post a link to where to view those coins.

P.S.  If it were my coin that chip or depression at the "S" would likely bug me to the point of exchanging it, even though it is just a bullion coin.

So here is what was left from what they had on eBay. Their the ones I purchased from and the ones that wrote me back and said that they have seen a few come back from grading without anything noted on the label. Mine came back as a MS69 which would be the highest im told, with an error such as this. Since I cant seem to find any other defect on the coin. 

---

[Tex808]

You will notice that the first one they have for sale has a smaller error part than mine.

[Tex808]

On 7/14/2023 at 6:11 PM, powermad5000 said:

The submitter paid for the Early Releases designation and requested the flag label. Typically to get the Early Releases designation, the coins must be submitted within a timeframe to NGC that expires for coins sent to them after the deadline, so most of the ASE's with special labels like that are sent in on bulk submission to be able to get the desired labelling. I am confident the submitter most likely never even inspected the coins in the submission and decided to "roll" with whatever label grades came back. It would be an astronomical cost to the submitter to check all the coins in a bulk submission for mint errors which typically do not occur on these coins.

Since I like the coin in the holder to be labelled properly, if it were mine, I would resubmit it and check off for Mint error on the submission form. It is possible whatever object caused that which I believe to be a strike through, that is significant enough to be labelled as a mint error, could have come out of the die striking immediately after your coin, and yours could be the only coin with that feature. Even though all mint errors are unique, I think if the coin were properly labelled as an error, you could get a value above market value for an MS 69 grade label if you were to auction the coin (think eBay).

Mahalo for your input! It can be so confusing with all the different ways on how this could have happened. I've had people say to submit and not to submit. I am too a person who wants its labeled correctly as well. Pinehurst Coins did already tell me that they did a large bulk submission. And because of the size of their company, it does not surprise me. I had mentioned in this thread that they also told me that they have seen other coins come back without any label notation but failed to tell me what they do in such a situation.

[Tex808]

On 7/14/2023 at 9:53 AM, VKurtB said:

Perhaps a hairy nevus?

Oh my! Should I have it surgically removed from my coin? $$$

[VKurtB]

On 7/17/2023 at 5:48 AM, Tex808 said:

Oh my! Should I have it surgically removed from my coin? $$$

I have to tell you that I don’t get collecting graded ASE’s. I have lots of ASE’s but I’d never buy a graded one or get one graded. I have three graded ones, but they were gifts. 

[Sandon]

    Just because someone is offering coins for an outrageous price doesn't mean that they are actually being sold for that price. Strikethroughs are very common and are more in the nature of defects rather than notable or rare mint errors such as coins that are multiple struck or struck way off center.

[powermad5000]

On 7/17/2023 at 9:16 AM, Sandon said:

Strikethroughs are very common

What about a coin that is struck through on both the obverse and the reverse? I don't think that is very common.

[VKurtB]

On 7/17/2023 at 9:53 PM, powermad5000 said:

What about a coin that is struck through on both the obverse and the reverse? I don't think that is very common.

That is not common but does reek of intentional misdeeds at the Mint. aka "numismatic vandalism".

Edited July 18, 2023 by VKurtB

[powermad5000]

I do happen to own such a coin struck through on both sides. I thought I was maybe seeing things, but it graded out as such by NGC.

[EagleRJO]

On 7/17/2023 at 6:38 AM, Tex808 said:

You will notice that the first one they have for sale has a smaller error part than mine.

Many of the ones on that webpage do appear to be struck-through errors, and are labeled as such by the TPG including the first one.

Although it appears the bull is off the nickel with those excessively high prices.  $250 for a small struck- thru error to $650 for a larger struck-thru error on a bullion coin?  Really?

But I don’t see any labeled as a mint error with what looks like a partially struck area that seems to have a small planchet chip missing, like what appears to have happened with your coin.

[Tex808]

So thank you everyone with such valuable input!

On 7/14/2023 at 6:11 PM, powermad5000 said:

The submitter paid for the Early Releases designation and requested the flag label. Typically to get the Early Releases designation, the coins must be submitted within a timeframe to NGC that expires for coins sent to them after the deadline, so most of the ASE's with special labels like that are sent in on bulk submission to be able to get the desired labelling. I am confident the submitter most likely never even inspected the coins in the submission and decided to "roll" with whatever label grades came back. It would be an astronomical cost to the submitter to check all the coins in a bulk submission for mint errors which typically do not occur on these coins.

Since I like the coin in the holder to be labelled properly, if it were mine, I would resubmit it and check off for Mint error on the submission form. It is possible whatever object caused that which I believe to be a strike through, that is significant enough to be labelled as a mint error, could have come out of the die striking immediately after your coin, and yours could be the only coin with that feature. Even though all mint errors are unique, I think if the coin were properly labelled as an error, you could get a value above market value for an MS 69 grade label if you were to auction the coin (think eBay).