1898-O Morgan silver dollar with die break-are these classified by size and location? First one of this size i have seen on a Morgan 1 1

[Lee Coen]

From my fathers coins, Looking through the glass last night and noticed a large raised area on the upper right side, in yellow. Checked the VAM info on the web, nothing seen like this-

Thanks for the info--

[Just Bob]

What you are seeing is the result of the obverse and reverse dies coming together without a planchet between them. Part of the obverse image, in this case the lower part of Liberty's hair and cap, was pressed into the reverse die. These are known as "die clashes", and are actually pretty common, especially on smaller coins such as three cent pieces. Here is an overlay from Maddieclashes.com that shows what I am talking about:

Edited to add: there are several 1898-O examples with clashed reverses, but that far-right tilted "O" should make this one pretty easy to attribute.

Edited June 24, 2023 by Just Bob

[Coinbuf]

Bob is correct, that is a very common clash mark on Morgan dollars.

[J P M]

You may find some clashing on the obverse also near the back of the bust bonnet and hairline.

Edited June 24, 2023 by J P M

[EagleRJO]

On 6/24/2023 at 9:49 AM, Lee Coen said:

... noticed a large raised area on the upper right side, in yellow. Checked the VAM info on the web, nothing seen like this

That is a solid match with an 1898-O VAM-11A which has a "near date" and a mint mark set high and tilted far right, as well as some die clashes including the one on the reverse between the eagle's left facing wing and the wreath that was circled in yellow ...

http://www.vamworld.com/wiki/1898-O_VAM-11A

See the attached comparison, with your coin on the left and a certified 1898-O VAM-11A on the right.  Your pics get a little blurry to check the other 11A die markers, but you can likely pick those up with the coin in-hand using a 40x loupe or with a scope.  Also, look for any loss of detail with the die markers which may indicate a counterfeit, but that doesn't appear to be the case with the markers I can see from the pics.

Edited June 28, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Lee Coen]

Spot on exact!! So much help here in this forum.

Now: Send it in????

Thanks again..

Lee

[EagleRJO]

On 6/24/2023 at 3:27 PM, Lee Coen said:

Now: Send it in????

Unless you are a VAM collector, which it doesn't seem like you are, I don't see any reason to send it in for grading.  It's not a valuable year-mark or VAM, and NGC wouldn't even attribute that VAM ...

https://www.ngccoin.com/variety-plus/united-states/dollars/morgan-dollars-1878-1921/77284/

[powermad5000]

I disagree only unless you are trying to submit it as a single coin submission. If this coin were lumped into a larger submission I think it is a nice enough Morgan to be graded.

Also, you will find that same die clash mark on the reverse of many Morgans of differing years. It does not add value to the coin, but is a marker used to determine some specific VAM's.

Edited June 24, 2023 by powermad5000

[Lee Coen]

On 6/24/2023 at 12:49 PM, EagleRJO said:

Unless you are a VAM collector, which it doesn't seem like you are, I don't see any reason to send it in for grading.  It's not a valuable year-mark or VAM, and NGC wouldn't even attribute that VAM ...

https://www.ngccoin.com/variety-plus/united-states/dollars/morgan-dollars-1878-1921/77284/

Well, NGC has none listed. Also, just because, Im going to send it in all by it self. Btw, I dont have to be a 'specific' area to support and enjoy the hobby..but thanks..I'll ship it monday on the way to work..Thank you for your help..

Ler

 

 

[Coinbuf]

On 6/24/2023 at 1:12 PM, Lee Coen said:

Well, NGC has none listed. Also, just because, Im going to send it in all by it self. Btw, I dont have to be a 'specific' area to support and enjoy the hobby..but thanks..I'll ship it monday on the way to work..Thank you for your help..

Ler

 

 

The reason NGC  has no VAM11's listed for this date/mm is that they will not attribute this VAM.  Unlike PCGS who will attribute even the most minute variety, NCG  only attributes what is on the list that @EagleRJO gave you a link to.

I personally don't think it makes any financial sense to grade this coin as I don't see it grading over MS64, MS63 is more likely imo.  Plus it is a common date with tens of thousands already graded.

However, if you have reasons other than financial then it may be worth it for you, just remember not to pay for the variety service as the VAM will not be listed and NGC will not refund the variety fee.

FYI, NGC pop reports show 25.6+ graded in MS63 and 41.4+ thousand in MS64.

Edited June 24, 2023 by Coinbuf

[EagleRJO]

On 6/24/2023 at 4:12 PM, Lee Coen said:

Well, NGC has none listed ... I'll ship it monday on the way to work ...

NGC doesn't list an 1898-O VAM-11A on the VarietyPlus pages I linked, so they would not list the 11A variety on the slab label.  PCG$ may attribute that though.  There is a lot of chatter and a few bag marks on Liberty's temple, face and neck which is a no-go for higher grades with the Morgan series.

It's hard to tell with those pics, but with those face marks and chatter it would likely grade a high AU to very low MS, like AU-58 to MS-61, depending on if some of the apparent darker or discolored areas are rub marks.

Getting it graded would likely cost around $80 with shipping, so you would lose money submitting it for grading, even as part of a larger submission, with a slabbed value around $70 to $90 and a raw value around $60 to $80.

If you want to send it in for grading anyway that's fine and your call.  Check back in after you get the grade to update this topic if you do send it in for grading.  It is always helpful to get that kind of feedback.

[P.S. I see Coinbuf beat me to the punch about the 11A variety]

Edited June 25, 2023 by EagleRJO

[powermad5000]

I personally think the OP's coin would grade out at MS63. 64 is too much of a stretch for the chatter I agree with that @EagleRJO noted but it does have relatively clear fields. I merely suggested it be a part of a larger submission as to "absorb" some of the shipping costs as @Coinbuf noted the census numbers and the coin imho would have a value of around $100. To me it is nice enough to be holdered, but done so wisely as to not pay all the shipping costs and fees as a single coin submission. I also recommend as well to not pay the $18 VarietyPlus fee as it will not be attributed.

[Lee Coen]

Wow! 

1. So send it in as is.

2. Dont ask for the VAM.

3. You all making my head hurt.

4. Glad its Saturday...

decisions, decisions..umm.umm

Lee

[RWB]

The 1898 dollar is MS-62 at best. Far too many scrapes and deep cuts above her eye. Not worth the money to "grade."

[Lee Coen]

Thank you..I was 'a hoping..

Lee

[Sandon]

   I concur with those who have advised you that this coin is not worth the cost of third-party grading. In my opinion, submitting coins to grading services is for those who have substantial experience in grading coins themselves and are able to determine that the coin will likely receive a high enough grade to make the cost worthwhile. Even we sometimes get unpleasant surprises. I recommend that you review this article on the NGC website by Jeff Garrett, a highly experienced and savvy dealer: Jeff Garrett: The Art of Rare Coin Submissions | NGC (ngccoin.com)

  Your 1898-O Morgan dollar can be protected and enjoyed in a hard plastic holder such as those I described in a post on your topic about the 2003-S cent.

[Lee Coen]

I read the article you posted. 

I want to thank each one of you for the info..why arent all chat boards this informative?

  beyond helpful...

I'm gonna send it...its that emotional attachment..

I will know its a 11a, even if not on the label and I have decided to stay ngc..not Pcg$.. 

thanks again for the knowledge and guidence.

Lee

[J P M]

On 6/25/2023 at 6:00 AM, Lee Coen said:

I read the article you posted. 

I want to thank each one of you for the info..why arent all chat boards this informative?

  beyond helpful...

I'm gonna send it...its that emotional attachment..

I will know its a 11a, even if not on the label and I have decided to stay ngc..not Pcg$.. 

thanks again for the knowledge and guidence.

Lee

It is a nice coin but not worth sending it in. It also has a damaged rim on the reverse along with other nicks and scratches. You could buy another coin for the money you will have to spend to have it graded. Just my opinion Lee.

[powermad5000]

@J P M I have submitted several Morgans with small "pieces" missing from the rim. While that will be a factor in the Morgan not getting an MS 65 or higher grade, it seems to fall within the realm of bag marks and such, as all of the ones I have sent missing small rim pieces have all graded out straight. At least on the Morgans, that will not get a details grade for rim damage. It will, however, be a factor for a hardcore Morgan collector to take a pass on buying it as they will only want Morgans with fully intact and unmarred rims.

[EagleRJO]

On 6/25/2023 at 7:08 AM, J P M said:

You could buy another coin for the money you will have to spend to have it graded.

Agreed.  For the $80 +/- grading cost you can buy an 1898-O Morgan in better condition, like the attached MS-63 for sale on eBay now for $79.99, when the coin the op posted would likely grade out AU-58 to MS-61 depending on if some darker areas are deemed to be rub marks.

Link: 1898-O Morgan $1 MS63 - For Sale @ eBay

 

Edited June 25, 2023 by EagleRJO

[VKurtB]

It’s clear to me now that “sending it in” has become some sort of emotional need for some people. I don’t need to understand it, and I don’t, to recognize it, and I do. This OP is just one of literally hundreds I have run into on just this site. The phenomenon needs to be studied. 

[J P M]

On 6/25/2023 at 6:59 PM, VKurtB said:

It’s clear to me now that “sending it in” has become some sort of emotional need for some people. I don’t need to understand it, and I don’t, to recognize it, and I do. This OP is just one of literally hundreds I have run into on just this site. The phenomenon needs to be studied. 

Kurt , It could be that when you get the bigger NGC membership you can get some grading done for free with the $150 credit and new members want to use that up?

[VKurtB]

On 6/26/2023 at 7:38 AM, J P M said:

Kurt , It could be that when you get the bigger NGC membership you can get some grading done for free with the $150 credit and new members want to use that up?

Yeah, that's true. I have the middle one and it expires around the ANA August show each year.

[EagleRJO]

On 6/25/2023 at 6:59 PM, VKurtB said:

... “sending it in” ... The phenomenon needs to be studied. 

I am sure that if you filled out the proper forms that you could get funding from the US Department of the Treasury to study the "Send-It-In" phenomenon!