first day of issue 1 1

[Roy Winters]

hello everyone,

     I wanted to reach out so someone would clarify first day of issue designations.  so I have a subscription to the us mint and I receive coins in the mail that were sent to me the day they were issued.  I think I saw on this site that you have to send them to NGC within 10 days of release.  Since i didnt know that, can i include the invoice from the mint or something like that to still get my designation?  for example.  The mint release the new American Eagle 2023 One Ounce Silver Uncirculated Coin on May 25th.  Mine was shipped that day.  of course it is way over the 10 days, is there no way to get that designation on that coin?

[EagleRJO]

You may want to post this in the "Ask NGC/NCS" section, but it looks like that ship has sailed.  And how would NGC know the coin submitted is the one identified in the invoice?

https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading/designations/

[Roy Winters]

i was thinking that, sucks but i wanted to at least see if there was an avenue open

[J P M]

What you have now is a 2023 eagle in US Mint packaging. It is not really worth sending in unless it is something special.

[EagleRJO]

On 6/21/2023 at 11:52 AM, Roy Winters said:

i was thinking that, sucks but i wanted to at least see if there was an avenue open

It doesn't look like you will be able to get the "First Day of Issue" designation on the label if submitted.  But as mentioned, I would post the question in the "Ask NGC/NCS" section anyway.  What's the worst that can happen, someone from NGC verifies that it's too late to submit for that label.

Is your coin a 2023 ASE Uncirculated as you stated was an example?  If so the difference between the two labels is minimal unless it would grade out MS70, in which case the difference in value would only be like $20 or so.

Edited June 23, 2023 by EagleRJO

[VKurtB]

My take? Coins ain’t like stamps. First day means almost zero. 

[Roy Winters]

thank you for all of your feed back.  I learn so much here.  Thank you everyone.

[Coinbuf]

I've never understood the desire or rational behind wanting or feeling the need for a label that says first day of issue.

[RWB]

First Day Covers are popular with philatelists, and first day postmarked stamps on $2 bills were a fun fad for a while. Hut River plc made a lot of coin/stamp first-day-first-issue postmarked covers that show up in older collections today. The "first" of anything is often prized, although "first day of issue" - which could be millions of stamps or coins - gets a little "weak" for many.

[VKurtB]

On 6/22/2023 at 8:52 AM, RWB said:

First Day Covers are popular with philatelists, and first day postmarked stamps on $2 bills were a fun fad for a while. Hut River plc made a lot of coin/stamp first-day-first-issue postmarked covers that show up in older collections today. The "first" of anything is often prized, although "first day of issue" - which could be millions of stamps or coins - gets a little "weak" for many.

If they truly were "First Day of PRODUCTION" and could be documented as such that might be neat.. But what amounts to "First Day of Shipping out" strikes me as a big nuthin'.

[Reno Raines]

All the "labeling" like "First day of issue", "Advanced release" and ect are nothing more than marketing ploys that a collector has to pay extra for since it has no bearing on the grade of the coin and TPG's generate extra income from.

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/23/2023 at 12:49 PM, VKurtB said:

If they truly were "First Day of PRODUCTION" and could be documented as such that might be neat.. But what amounts to "First Day of Shipping out" strikes me as a big nuthin'.

Bibliophiles prize First Editions of books by especially sought after authors, made all the more valuable by subsequent printings during which additions and deletions are made including redactions of entire paragraphs--even chapters. In coins, the only explanation that makes sense is Fresh off the Press and in that case, my understanding is, the entire shipment with package and postal markings intact, would have to be re-shipped unopened to NGC within a specified period of time. The post-mark and condition of the shipment is key. 

 

[Reno Raines]

On 6/23/2023 at 7:53 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Bibliophiles prize First Editions of books by especially sought after authors, made all the more valuable by subsequent printings during which additions and deletions are made including redactions of entire paragraphs--even chapters. In coins, the only explanation that makes sense is Fresh off the Press and in that case, my understanding is, the entire shipment with package and postal markings intact, would have to be re-shipped unopened to NGC within a specified period of time. The post-mark and condition of the shipment is key. 

 

Why pay extra "Grading fees" just for a "Special" label? If and when you decide to sell the coin in question I pretty much guarantee that you'll loose money on your investment. I'm just trying to save you money when it comes to getting your coins graded. For example, I buy my coins already pre graded by NGC and I've never paid book value for any of them - I collect only gold coins and burnished ASE's. Currently I'm halfway done completing my NGC MS70 burnished ASE set.

Edited June 24, 2023 by Tony Follis

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/23/2023 at 7:53 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Bibliophiles prize First Editions of books by especially sought after authors, made all the more valuable by subsequent printings during which additions and deletions are made including redactions of entire paragraphs--even chapters. In coins, the only explanation that makes sense is Fresh off the Press and in that case, my understanding is, the entire shipment with package and postal markings intact, would have to be re-shipped unopened to NGC within a specified period of time. The post-mark and condition of the shipment is key. 

 

Edit:  The answer to the question may be found in the link helpfully provided in the first reply by @EagleRJO above.

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/23/2023 at 8:28 PM, Tony Follis said:

Why pay extra "Grading fees" just for a "Special" label? If and when you decide to sell the coin in question I pretty much guarantee that you'll lose money on your investment. 

One cannot account for people's tastes, motives or proclivities on certain things, one of which is labels on coins. This is why doing due diligence is emphasized so much. How does one begin to explain to a non-collector that his 24-karat gold plated quarters are a splendid example of post mint damaged coins? 

[Reno Raines]

On 6/23/2023 at 9:08 PM, Henri Charriere said:

One cannot account for people's tastes, motives or proclivities on certain things, one of which is labels on coins. This is why doing due diligence is emphasized so much. How does one begin to explain to a non-collector that his 24-karat gold plated quarters are a splendid example of post mint damaged coins? 

In a post I made on a different thread I did say that everybody has different collecting styles and tastes. However, that doesn't change the fact that you'll loose money on your investment if and when you decide to sell the coin in question as it's only worth as much as what somebody's willing to pay for it at any given time thus at least IMHO it's not worth paying extra money or justifying the cost for a "Special" label.

Edited June 24, 2023 by Tony Follis

[VKurtB]

On 6/23/2023 at 8:32 PM, Tony Follis said:

In a post I made on a different thread I did say that everybody has different collecting styles and tastes. However, that doesn't change the fact that you'll loose money on your investment if and when you decide to sell the coin in question as it's only worth as much as what somebody's willing to pay for it at any given time thus at least IMHO it's not worth paying extra money or justifying the cost for a "Special" label.

Getting ANY American Eagle coin graded, regardless of metal, and even if it grades at 70, is one of the biggest money losing propositions in the entire hobby. YOU WILL LOSE MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF MONEY buying graded American Eagle coinage. It is the surest fact in this hobby. Yet approximately 50% of coins graded at NGC are American Silver Eagles. Really bad look.

[Reno Raines]

On 6/24/2023 at 7:15 PM, VKurtB said:

Getting ANY American Eagle coin graded, regardless of metal, and even if it grades at 70, is one of the biggest money losing propositions in the entire hobby. YOU WILL LOSE MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF MONEY buying graded American Eagle coinage. It is the surest fact in this hobby. Yet approximately 50% of coins graded at NGC are American Silver Eagles. Really bad look.

Actually I bought a NGC MS70 2022 burnished ASE last night for $61.00 and it (for what it's worth) has a NGC book value of $110.00. The silver in the burnished ASE's is the same as the regular yearly issue however the burnished ASE's have a much lower mintage compared to the regular and proof yearly versions. Personally I think it's a waste of money chasing labels as NGC and other TPG's classify those labels as "Varieties" but it's nothing more than a marketing ploy for them to charge the collector higher grading fees.

[VKurtB]

On 6/24/2023 at 6:31 PM, Tony Follis said:

Actually I bought a NGC MS70 2022 burnished ASE last night for $61.00 and it (for what it's worth) has a NGC book value of $110.00. The silver in the burnished ASE's is the same as the regular yearly issue however the burnished ASE's have a much lower mintage compared to the regular and proof yearly versions. Personally I think it's a waste of money chasing labels as NGC and other TPG's classify those labels as "Varieties" but it's nothing more than a marketing ploy for them to charge the collector higher grading fees.

Anybody can list them at $110.00, but trust me, I've checked; NOBODY offers more than melt for any of them.

[J P M]

On 6/24/2023 at 7:33 PM, VKurtB said:

Anybody can list them at $110.00, but trust me, I've checked; NOBODY offers more than melt for any of them.

Every coin dealer I ever talk to about ASE's and there value or collectability says the same thing.. It is bullion ... 

[EagleRJO]

On 6/23/2023 at 12:49 PM, VKurtB said:

If they truly were "First Day of PRODUCTION" and could be documented as such that might be neat.

You are probably aware that you can get an ASE with a "First Day of Production" label.  The labels are only offered to dealers who buy the bulk boxes, directly from the mint, and submit that to a TPG intact with accompanying paperwork from the mint.

Edited June 25, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Reno Raines]

On 6/24/2023 at 7:33 PM, VKurtB said:

Anybody can list them at $110.00, but trust me, I've checked; NOBODY offers more than melt for any of them.

Depending on how much the spot silver price is I usually buy one hundred of the regular version of ASE's and melt them into a one hundred troy ounce bar since there's literally millions of them minted each year. In fact it's roughly a 5:1 ratio in terms of mintage between the regular and burnished versions of ASE's each year. I also would never go to a dealer as any dealer is only going to give you a low ball offer.

[EagleRJO]

On 6/24/2023 at 9:23 PM, Tony Follis said:

Depending on how much the spot silver price is I usually buy one hundred of the regular version of ASE's and melt them into a one hundred troy ounce bar since there's literally millions of them minted each year. In fact it's roughly a 5:1 ratio in terms of mintage between the regular and burnished versions of ASE's each year. I also would never go to a dealer as any dealer is only going to give you a low ball offer.

Today silver closed at $22.70 USD, with a Bid Price @ $22.45 USD and an Ask Price @ $22.70 USD.  Where do you purchase 100 ASE's for at or less than the $22.45 Ask price each, to then melt down to make a 100 oz bar and sell it at 100 x $22.70 = $2,270 USD for a profit of 100 x ($22.70 - $22.45) = $22.50 USD.  With overhead, shipping, etc. it's actually a loss.

Edited June 25, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Reno Raines]

On 6/25/2023 at 1:19 AM, EagleRJO said:

Today silver closed at $22.70 USD, with a Bid Price @ $22.45 USD and an Ask Price @ $22.70 USD.  Where do you purchase 100 ASE's for at or less than the $22.45 Ask price each, to then melt down to make a 100 oz bar and sell it at 100 x $22.70 = $2,270 USD for a profit of 100 x ($22.70 - $22.45) = $22.50 USD.  With overhead, shipping, etc. it's actually a loss.

When you make your own bars of silver you don't have the overhead expenses that a precious metal dealer does which is why a coin dealer only pays 5 percent off spot silver for ASE's. When I buy ungraded regular ASE's I do so in a bulk order to get a discount. Personally I don't consider the regular version of ASE's as a collectible coin as millions are minted each year compared to the burnished version which the highest mintage was in 2007 with only 621,333 since then the mintages of burnished ASE's has gone way down especially in 2018 (138,947) and 2019 (138,140)

[EagleRJO]

On 6/25/2023 at 1:46 AM, Tony Follis said:

When I buy ungraded regular ASE's I do so in a bulk order to get a discount

Where do you buy the ASE"s in bulk, and at what kind of discount?

[Reno Raines]

On 6/25/2023 at 2:30 AM, EagleRJO said:

Where do you buy the ASE"s in bulk, and at what kind of discount?

Various places like SD Bullion for one and I average a 10 - 12 percent discount.

[EagleRJO]

On 6/25/2023 at 2:36 AM, Tony Follis said:

Various places like SD Bullion for one and I average a 10 - 12 percent discount.

Looks like they have 1 oz cull silver coins at $30 if you wire buy 100, and I don't see anything below the Spot Ask Price they have of $22.62 per oz.

In fact even a bulk buy 100 oz bar is at $24.62 per oz if you wire buy 10 of them (1,000 oz), or 10% above spot, let alone anything at a  discounted Bid Price needed to make any money off that.

Do you have an example of one that you could post a link to as I am genuinely curious if any legit dealer could sell silver at 10% to 12% below Spot Bid Price, which is a loss for them.

Edited June 25, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Reno Raines]

On 6/25/2023 at 4:06 AM, EagleRJO said:

Looks like they have 1 oz cull silver coins at $30 if you wire buy 100, and I don't see anything below the Spot Ask Price they have of $22.62 per oz.

In fact even a bulk buy 100 oz bar is at $24.62 per oz if you wire buy 10 of them (1,000 oz), or 10% above spot, let alone anything at a  discounted Bid Price needed to make any money off that.

Do you have an example of one that you could post a link to as I am genuinely curious if any legit dealer could sell silver at 10% to 12% below Spot Bid Price, which is a loss for them.

No but as I said I make my own bars as it's very simple to do and less expensive. If you already have the equipment needed you'll just have to buy enough silver rounds to make the bar of the size you want. In my case I make 100 oz bars for myself but sometimes I'll make a 10 oz bar to sell on eBay just to make some quick cash.

[EagleRJO]

On 6/25/2023 at 5:10 AM, Tony Follis said:

... you'll just have to buy enough silver rounds to make the bar of the size you want

Okay, so can you post an example link to where you buy those at under spot.

[powermad5000]

I have some ASE's but they have their own special labels such as "WTC recovery". That label means something. I drew the line a long time ago at what to me is purely a marketing gimmick and some guy like Mike Mezack is getting filthy rich off of. 

If I take an MS 70 First Day of Production slab, and I put it right next to a plain graded MS 70 slab, can anybody tell the difference between the COIN in the slabs????? Probably not. So, if I covered the labels and showed them to you first, you wouldn't know the difference between the two.

For myself (mind you not an ASE collector), I have taken that one step further as to the naked eye you can't tell the difference between MS 69 and MS 70. Why pay the 70 premium for a  BULLION coin when you can put together a set of MS 69s for half the price? Other than someone with something to prove making a superior registry set to others, I see no reason to even pay for MS 70 on bullion coins.